object databases and other questions of architecture

> Hi all,
>
> I am looking for a new and better set of tools to use to build the
> next version of the software we use to run our e-commerce site
> both front and back ends. There is a lot about Seaside that gets my
> imagination running with how easy it would make certain
> things we have thought about doing that are just plain hard to do with
> most tools. Our urrent system is mysql 5, nginx, memcached
> and mod-perl based web-applications and a variety of scripts that get
> run via cron for day to day housekeeping.
>
> I'm sick of fighting with ORMs and ending up stuck in a land that is
> neither OO nor Relational so a key point of this is
> to ditch the mysql and find a nice stable object database. From what
> I've seen when looking at the options available for
> use with Seaside there is magma, goods and webstone/s. Am I missing
> anything in that list? Can anyone give me
> feedback on any of those from the standpoint of... our relational
> database would immediately map into something in
> the area of at least 12 million object and depending on design upwards
> of 20 million with at least 250,000 being added
> monthly. As object databases get much less use than relational ones,
> I'm quite a bit more nervous about this part of
> the process than I would be if it was something like: mysql or postgres.
>
> Currently we run everything off of debian boxes. Are there issues with
> the type of memory use etc that we would looking
> at with running on debian ( or any other linux ) in terms of stability
> etc? I seem to remember seeing something about
> squeak having issues with larger image sizes. Would a different VM be
> better suited for the task I have at hand?
>
> I really like Seaside and think we could do great things with it but I
> have quite step learning curve pretty much across
> the board here so any help with narrowing down architecture questions
> some is greatly appreciated.
>
> -Sean-

> Hi all,
>
> I am looking for a new and better set of tools to use to build the  next
> version of the software we use to run our e-commerce site
> both front and back ends. There is a lot about Seaside that gets my
> imagination running with how easy it would make certain
> things we have thought about doing that are just plain hard to do with
> most tools. Our urrent system is mysql 5, nginx, memcached
> and mod-perl based web-applications and a variety of scripts that get  run
> via cron for day to day housekeeping.
>
> I'm sick of fighting with ORMs and ending up stuck in a land that is
> neither OO nor Relational so a key point of this is
> to ditch the mysql and find a nice stable object database. From what  I've
> seen when looking at the options available for
> use with Seaside there is magma, goods and webstone/s. Am I missing
> anything in that list? Can anyone give me
> feedback on any of those from the standpoint of... our relational
> database would immediately map into something in
> the area of at least 12 million object and depending on design upwards  of
> 20 million with at least 250,000 being added
> monthly. As object databases get much less use than relational ones,  I'm
> quite a bit more nervous about this part of
> the process than I would be if it was something like: mysql or postgres.
>
> Currently we run everything off of debian boxes. Are there issues with
> the type of memory use etc that we would looking
> at with running on debian ( or any other linux ) in terms of stability
> etc? I seem to remember seeing something about
> squeak having issues with larger image sizes. Would a different VM be
> better suited for the task I have at hand?
>
> I really like Seaside and think we could do great things with it but I
> have quite step learning curve pretty much across
> the board here so any help with narrowing down architecture questions
> some is greatly appreciated.
>
> -Sean-
>
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>

> Sean Allen wrote:
>> I really like Seaside and think we could do great things with it  
>> but I have quite step learning curve pretty much across
>> the board here so any help with narrowing down architecture  
>> questions some is greatly appreciated.
>> -Sean-
>
> I am essentially a newbie but I have a little, very little,  
> experience using GemStone (GLASS).  When using GemStone, there seems  
> to be none of the typical impedance mismatch between my domain model  
> and the database.
>
> I ported a small app that I built, from PostgreSql to GemStone, and  
> most of my porting work involved ripping out code.  I was left with  
> something that was much simpler to understand and a lot less code to  
> maintain.
>
> I have just scratched the surface, GemStone seems to offer a lot of  
> value IMHO.

>>>>>> "Colin" == Colin Putney <[hidden email]> writes:
>
> Colin> Another downside (compared to where you are now) is that  
> Gemstone is a
> Colin> commercial product, and if you want to scale beyond a certain  
> point,
> Colin> you'll have to pay for it.
>
> If you can't make enough money from 100 dynamic hits per second to  
> afford the
> $7000/year second-tier Gemstone license, you probably don't have a  
> very good
> business model. :)
>

>
> On Mar 27, 2008, at 6:38 AM, Victor wrote:
>
>> If you are ready to jump into the commercial space, I would suggest  
>> to get a taste of Gemstone.  They have a non-commercial version, so  
>> you can play a little.  However there is some learning curve there.
>>
>> Víctor
>
> Actually, the Web Edition of GemStone/S is not a "non-commercial  
> version" but a no-cost version--even for commercial use! The  
> limitations are related to database size (4 GB) and the hope is that  
> many commercial projects will use it and maybe a few will grow. See http://seaside.gemstone.com 
>  for details.
>
> James Foster

> Hi Sean,
>
> As an employee of GemStone Systems I'm certainly biased, but I'd  
> suggest you investigate GLASS (http://seaside.gemstone.com). While  
> object databases are used in fewer applications than relational  
> ones, when OODBs are used, they are used heavily and found to be  
> quite stable. Following are a couple quotes from http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?biz.5.594244.20 
> :
>
> "I work for a major shipping company. We have a massive OODB and  
> Smalltalk Application (500 gig range) with 3 million lines of code.  
> We have 2000 plus daily users. We can do 700 transactions a second  
> before slowing down. We also have a Java + SQL +EMS system. On a  
> good day they can do 70 transactions a second, with three times the  
> hardware."   --Timo (Saturday, February 16, 2008)
>
> "Along side with the major shipping company, we are a major  
> commodities exchange using GS and ST and while our operational DB is  
> small (about 5 GB at the start of the trading day to less than 75 GB  
> and the end) we are probably one of the fastest.  We easily handle  
> transaction rates approaching 6000/sec with about 8000+ daily  
> users.  Our average data center round trip times are in the 2-3 ms  
> range [from when an external request is received till a response is  
> sent to the client]." --GemStone Weenie (Monday, February 18, 2008)
>
> You specified 12 million objects. At 100 bytes per object, this  
> comes to 1.2 GB in space. GemStone/S will handle this fine on a  
> variety of Linux distributions.
>
> James Foster
>
> On Mar 27, 2008, at 6:16 AM, Sean Allen wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I am looking for a new and better set of tools to use to build the  
>> next version of the software we use to run our e-commerce site
>> both front and back ends. There is a lot about Seaside that gets my  
>> imagination running with how easy it would make certain
>> things we have thought about doing that are just plain hard to do  
>> with most tools. Our urrent system is mysql 5, nginx, memcached
>> and mod-perl based web-applications and a variety of scripts that  
>> get run via cron for day to day housekeeping.
>>
>> I'm sick of fighting with ORMs and ending up stuck in a land that  
>> is neither OO nor Relational so a key point of this is
>> to ditch the mysql and find a nice stable object database. From  
>> what I've seen when looking at the options available for
>> use with Seaside there is magma, goods and webstone/s. Am I missing  
>> anything in that list? Can anyone give me
>> feedback on any of those from the standpoint of... our relational  
>> database would immediately map into something in
>> the area of at least 12 million object and depending on design  
>> upwards of 20 million with at least 250,000 being added
>> monthly. As object databases get much less use than relational  
>> ones, I'm quite a bit more nervous about this part of
>> the process than I would be if it was something like: mysql or  
>> postgres.
>>
>> Currently we run everything off of debian boxes. Are there issues  
>> with the type of memory use etc that we would looking
>> at with running on debian ( or any other linux ) in terms of  
>> stability etc? I seem to remember seeing something about
>> squeak having issues with larger image sizes. Would a different VM  
>> be better suited for the task I have at hand?
>>
>> I really like Seaside and think we could do great things with it  
>> but I have quite step learning curve pretty much across
>> the board here so any help with narrowing down architecture  
>> questions some is greatly appreciated.
>>
>> -Sean-
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> seaside mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>>
>

>
> On Mar 27, 2008, at 6:38 AM, Victor wrote:
>
>> If you are ready to jump into the commercial space, I would suggest  
>> to get a taste of Gemstone.  They have a non-commercial version, so  
>> you can play a little.  However there is some learning curve there.
>>
>> Víctor
>
> Actually, the Web Edition of GemStone/S is not a "non-commercial  
> version" but a no-cost version--even for commercial use! The  
> limitations are related to database size (4 GB) and the hope is that  
> many commercial projects will use it and maybe a few will grow. See http://seaside.gemstone.com 
>  for details.
>
> James Foster

> Which I look at this way.. $600 a month.... would it save us $600  
> worth
> of developer time a month? Yeah, I dont think that is an issue.
>
> What I'm interested in, is the best tool for the job.
>
> I take it from what I've gotten here, that Gemstone's vm and object  
> database
> are considered the best of breed for seaside at this time ( or are  
> expected
> to be soon ); would that statement be correct?

> James Foster wrote:
>
>>
>> For further information about GS/S, check out Dale's blog (http://gemstonesoup.wordpress.com/ 
>>  ). For information about Cincom's Seaside experience, check out  
>> James  Roberson's blog (http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/ 
>> blogView) where  he is doing a series of daily tutorials.
>>
> For getting answers to any additional questions you might have that  
> are specific to GemStone/S and Seaside (GLASS) you should join our  
> mailing list (http://seaside.gemstone.com/mailman/listinfo/beta).
>

>
> On Mar 27, 2008, at 2:20 PM, Dale Henrichs wrote:
>> James Foster wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> For further information about GS/S, check out Dale's blog (http://gemstonesoup.wordpress.com/ 
>>>  ). For information about Cincom's Seaside experience, check out  
>>> James  Roberson's blog (http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/ 
>>> blogView) where  he is doing a series of daily tutorials.
>>>
>> For getting answers to any additional questions you might have that  
>> are specific to GemStone/S and Seaside (GLASS) you should join our  
>> mailing list (http://seaside.gemstone.com/mailman/listinfo/beta).
>>
>
> joined. rather quite so far.
>
> formulating all my questions....
>
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>

> Quite what? Quiet? ;-)
>
> Looking forward to your questions...
>
> James
>
>
> On Mar 28, 2008, at 9:47 AM, Sean Allen wrote:
>
>>
>> On Mar 27, 2008, at 2:20 PM, Dale Henrichs wrote:
>>> James Foster wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> For further information about GS/S, check out Dale's blog (http://gemstonesoup.wordpress.com/ 
>>>>  ). For information about Cincom's Seaside experience, check out  
>>>> James  Roberson's blog (http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView 
>>>> ) where  he is doing a series of daily tutorials.
>>>>
>>> For getting answers to any additional questions you might have  
>>> that are specific to GemStone/S and Seaside (GLASS) you should  
>>> join our mailing list (http://seaside.gemstone.com/mailman/listinfo/beta 
>>> ).
>>>
>>
>> joined. rather quite so far.
>>
>> formulating all my questions....
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> seaside mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside