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Pavel Krivanek-3

on Raspberry Pi

Hi,

one my friend got Raspberry Pi yesterday so I have seen it in action.
I had almost no time for experiments but I have seen Fedora 17 on it
with standard Squeak (3.10) packages for this distro on FullHD
display. On that VM (3.10.5) I got about 40M bytecodes/sec and 1M
sends/sec. The environment is not extra fast but usable without
problems. I will pray for successful GSoC ARM JIT project :-) The
device was connected to the professional meter and the power
consumption was about 3.5W.

Cheers,
-- Pavel

Marcus Denker-4

Re: on Raspberry Pi

On May 10, 2012, at 11:29 AM, Pavel Krivanek wrote:

> Hi,
>
> one my friend got Raspberry Pi yesterday so I have seen it in action.
> I had almost no time for experiments but I have seen Fedora 17 on it
> with standard Squeak (3.10) packages for this distro on FullHD
> display. On that VM (3.10.5) I got about 40M bytecodes/sec and 1M
> sends/sec. The environment is not extra fast but usable without
> problems. I will pray for successful GSoC ARM JIT project :-) The
> device was connected to the professional meter and the power
> consumption was about 3.5W.
>

Very nice!

As soon as we get one we will put it as a build target for Jenkins...
(sadly even though I got up early that day I am not yet even invited
to pre-order...).

Marcus

--
Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

Pavel Krivanek-3

Re: on Raspberry Pi

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 11:31 AM, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On May 10, 2012, at 11:29 AM, Pavel Krivanek wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> one my friend got Raspberry Pi yesterday so I have seen it in action.
>> I had almost no time for experiments but I have seen Fedora 17 on it
>> with standard Squeak (3.10) packages for this distro on FullHD
>> display. On that VM (3.10.5) I got about 40M bytecodes/sec and 1M
>> sends/sec. The environment is not extra fast but usable without
>> problems. I will pray for successful GSoC ARM JIT project :-) The
>> device was connected to the professional meter and the power
>> consumption was about 3.5W.
>>
> Very nice!
>
> As soon as we get one we will put it as a build target for Jenkins...
> (sadly even though I got up early that day I am not yet even invited
> to pre-order...).
>
> Marcus

I will try to borrow it on PharoConf :-)

-- Pavel

>
>
> --
> Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de
>
>

Hannes Hirzel

Re: on Raspberry Pi

In reply to this post by Pavel Krivanek-3

On 5/10/12, Pavel Krivanek <[hidden email]> wrote:

Amazing, a 256MB RAM machine with a main board which includes
everything for 35USD.
Some five to seven years ago one would not have believed that this is possible.

And thanks to the open source movement providing software for it is
possible.....

Thank you for this short report.

--Hannes

Marcus Denker-4

Re: on Raspberry Pi

In reply to this post by Pavel Krivanek-3

On May 10, 2012, at 1:34 PM, H. Hirzel wrote:

> On 5/10/12, Pavel Krivanek <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> one my friend got Raspberry Pi yesterday so I have seen it in action.
>> I had almost no time for experiments but I have seen Fedora 17 on it
>> with standard Squeak (3.10) packages for this distro on FullHD
>> display. On that VM (3.10.5) I got about 40M bytecodes/sec and 1M
>> sends/sec. The environment is not extra fast but usable without
>> problems. I will pray for successful GSoC ARM JIT project :-) The
>> device was connected to the professional meter and the power
>> consumption was about 3.5W.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -- Pavel
>>
>>
>
> Amazing, a 256MB RAM machine with a main board which includes
> everything for 35USD.
> Some five to seven years ago one would not have believed that this is possible.

This especially *screams* for re-considering certain design decisions that we
inherited from Smalltalk.

256MB of RAM makes it hard to argue for complex schmemes to save some a little ram.
(Compact classes, for example).

How would smalltalk look like if it would be re-designed with the same philosophy that they
used when there where just 256Kb in the Alto?

This is a fun comparision:

http://www.raspberrypi.org/
vs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Alto

1) Price.

$35 vs. $35000 (est, not adjusted for inflation). x1000

2) RAM

256MB vs. 256Kb (max was 512, at the end). x1000

3) CPU

1MIPS? not sure. Vs. 700Mhz ARMv11 x 1000 (?)
+ 3D and MP4 decoder

So one could argue that it's a factor of 1 Million considering price
and Performance together...

Marcus

--
Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

Hannes Hirzel

Re: on Raspberry Pi

Yes this is an interesting comparison, in particular if you add size
and weight to the comparison.

Thank you Marcus, for the idea of doing the comparison putting the
figures together.

And yes, 1000 times more RAM should make it possible to come up with a
more easy to understand design for the object memory and VM.

--Hannes

On 5/10/12, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On May 10, 2012, at 1:34 PM, H. Hirzel wrote:
>
>> On 5/10/12, Pavel Krivanek <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> one my friend got Raspberry Pi yesterday so I have seen it in action.
>>> I had almost no time for experiments but I have seen Fedora 17 on it
>>> with standard Squeak (3.10) packages for this distro on FullHD
>>> display. On that VM (3.10.5) I got about 40M bytecodes/sec and 1M
>>> sends/sec. The environment is not extra fast but usable without
>>> problems. I will pray for successful GSoC ARM JIT project :-) The
>>> device was connected to the professional meter and the power
>>> consumption was about 3.5W.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> -- Pavel
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Amazing, a 256MB RAM machine with a main board which includes
>> everything for 35USD.
>> Some five to seven years ago one would not have believed that this is
>> possible.
>
>
> This especially *screams* for re-considering certain design decisions that
> we
> inherited from Smalltalk.
>
> 256MB of RAM makes it hard to argue for complex schmemes to save some a
> little ram.
> (Compact classes, for example).
>
> How would smalltalk look like if it would be re-designed with the same
> philosophy that they
> used when there where just 256Kb in the Alto?
>
> This is a fun comparision:
>
> http://www.raspberrypi.org/
> vs
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Alto
>
> 1) Price.
>
> $35 vs. $35000 (est, not adjusted for inflation). x1000
>
> 2) RAM
>
> 256MB vs. 256Kb (max was 512, at the end). x1000
>
> 3) CPU
>
> 1MIPS? not sure. Vs. 700Mhz ARMv11 x 1000 (?)
> + 3D and MP4 decoder
>
> So one could argue that it's a factor of 1 Million considering price
> and Performance together...
>
>
> Marcus
>
>
> --
> Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de
>
>
>

220px-Xerox_Alto_mit_Rechner.JPG (20K) Download Attachment

Stefan Marr-3

Re: on Raspberry Pi

On 10 May 2012, at 14:03, H. Hirzel wrote:

> Yes this is an interesting comparison, in particular if you add size
> and weight to the comparison.
>
> Thank you Marcus, for the idea of doing the comparison putting the
> figures together.
>
> And yes, 1000 times more RAM should make it possible to come up with a
> more easy to understand design for the object memory and VM.

Have you seen SOM (Simple object machine)?

That's what you get if you go for simplicity for teaching.

See http://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/projects/som/, it is originally coming from Århus.

It is a nice and clean VM, with little distracting complexity.
Not fast of course...
And, well, not Pharo compatible. (which one could count as a benefit, since it keeps complexity low)

Would be interesting to hear what the Pinocchio folks think about it in terms of complexity.

Best regards
Stefan

--
Stefan Marr
Software Languages Lab
Vrije Universiteit Brussel
Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium
http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr
Phone: +32 2 629 2974
Fax: +32 2 629 3525

Hannes Hirzel

Re: on Raspberry Pi

Thank you, Stefan
for this link giving a list with short explanations of different
compatible Smalltalk VMs.

I was not aware of it.

Especially interesting is the diagram in the history section of
http://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/projects/som/

The VM called 'AweSome' implemented in Squeak (includes C++ generator)
has 2432 LOC whereas the Java implementation has 5899 LOC.

--Hannes

On 5/10/12, Stefan Marr <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 10 May 2012, at 14:03, H. Hirzel wrote:
>
>> Yes this is an interesting comparison, in particular if you add size
>> and weight to the comparison.
>>
>> Thank you Marcus, for the idea of doing the comparison putting the
>> figures together.
>>
>> And yes, 1000 times more RAM should make it possible to come up with a
>> more easy to understand design for the object memory and VM.
>
> Have you seen SOM (Simple object machine)?
>
> That's what you get if you go for simplicity for teaching.
>
> See http://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/projects/som/, it is originally
> coming from Århus.
>
> It is a nice and clean VM, with little distracting complexity.
> Not fast of course...
> And, well, not Pharo compatible. (which one could count as a benefit, since
> it keeps complexity low)
>
> Would be interesting to hear what the Pinocchio folks think about it in
> terms of complexity.
>
>
> Best regards
> Stefan
>
>
>
> --
> Stefan Marr
> Software Languages Lab
> Vrije Universiteit Brussel
> Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium
> http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr
> Phone: +32 2 629 2974
> Fax: +32 2 629 3525
>
>
>

Hilaire Fernandes

Re: on Raspberry Pi

In reply to this post by Pavel Krivanek-3

On 10/05/2012 11:28, Pavel Krivanek wrote:
> problems. I will pray for successful GSoC ARM JIT project :-) The
> device was connected to the professional meter and the power

So do I.

--
Dr. Geo -- http://www.drgeo.eu

Hannes Hirzel

Re: on Raspberry Pi

But there are regular VMs for this device, aren't they?

On 5/10/12, Hilaire Fernandes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 10/05/2012 11:28, Pavel Krivanek wrote:
>> problems. I will pray for successful GSoC ARM JIT project :-) The
>> device was connected to the professional meter and the power
>
> So do I.
>
> --
> Dr. Geo -- http://www.drgeo.eu
>
>
>

Marcus Denker-4

Re: on Raspberry Pi

In reply to this post by Hilaire Fernandes

On May 10, 2012, at 3:35 PM, H. Hirzel wrote:

> But there are regular VMs for this device, aren't they?
>

Not automatically build from the latest source on the device itself.
So: No. (according to my standards ;-)

Marcus

--
Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

Ben Coman

Re: on Raspberry Pi

In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4

Marcus Denker wrote:

> On May 10, 2012, at 11:29 AM, Pavel Krivanek wrote:
>
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> one my friend got Raspberry Pi yesterday so I have seen it in action.
>> I had almost no time for experiments but I have seen Fedora 17 on it
>> with standard Squeak (3.10) packages for this distro on FullHD
>> display. On that VM (3.10.5) I got about 40M bytecodes/sec and 1M
>> sends/sec. The environment is not extra fast but usable without
>> problems. I will pray for successful GSoC ARM JIT project :-) The
>> device was connected to the professional meter and the power
>> consumption was about 3.5W.
>>
>>
> Very nice!
>
> As soon as we get one we will put it as a build target for Jenkins...
> (sadly even though I got up early that day I am not yet even invited
> to pre-order...).
>
> Marcus
>
>
> --
> Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de
>
>
>
>

That is very interesting. I expect a working Smalltalk image for
Raspberry Pi on a continuous integration server would attract a lot of
good attention from the wider community.

Frank Shearar-3

Re: on Raspberry Pi

On 10 May 2012 15:34, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Marcus Denker wrote:
>>
>> On May 10, 2012, at 11:29 AM, Pavel Krivanek wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> one my friend got Raspberry Pi yesterday so I have seen it in action.
>>> I had almost no time for experiments but I have seen Fedora 17 on it
>>> with standard Squeak (3.10) packages for this distro on FullHD
>>> display. On that VM (3.10.5) I got about 40M bytecodes/sec and 1M
>>> sends/sec. The environment is not extra fast but usable without
>>> problems. I will pray for successful GSoC ARM JIT project :-) The
>>> device was connected to the professional meter and the power
>>> consumption was about 3.5W.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Very nice!
>>
>> As soon as we get one we will put it as a build target for Jenkins...
>> (sadly even though I got up early that day I am not yet even invited to
>> pre-order...).
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>>
>> --
>> Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> That is very interesting. I expect a working Smalltalk image for Raspberry
> Pi on a continuous integration server would attract a lot of good attention
> from the wider community.

I would be most happy to test out such an image: I'm waiting for mine to arrive!

frank

Stéphane Ducasse

Re: on Raspberry Pi

In reply to this post by Pavel Krivanek-3

On May 10, 2012, at 11:37 AM, Pavel Krivanek wrote:

> On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 11:31 AM, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On May 10, 2012, at 11:29 AM, Pavel Krivanek wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> one my friend got Raspberry Pi yesterday so I have seen it in action.
>>> I had almost no time for experiments but I have seen Fedora 17 on it
>>> with standard Squeak (3.10) packages for this distro on FullHD
>>> display. On that VM (3.10.5) I got about 40M bytecodes/sec and 1M
>>> sends/sec. The environment is not extra fast but usable without
>>> problems. I will pray for successful GSoC ARM JIT project :-) The
>>> device was connected to the professional meter and the power
>>> consumption was about 3.5W.
>>>
>> Very nice!
>>
>> As soon as we get one we will put it as a build target for Jenkins...
>> (sadly even though I got up early that day I am not yet even invited
>> to pre-order...).
>>
>> Marcus
>
> I will try to borrow it on PharoConf :-)

would be nice to have a pic with some pharo logo around.

>
> -- Pavel
>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de
>>
>>
>