realized and learned something today :)
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realized and learned something today :)
 
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Hi guys
I think that over the years I (but also many of you, I know) tried to expose newbies to smalltalk or our culture. And often we get bad reactions, bad windows, bad colors, slow, why not in svn, ..... I think that showing Smalltalk to newbies is the best we can do to ourselves, not really to attract new people but also to get a large kick in the %^&* because most of the time students are not stupid, they are exposed to other technos. So each time we believe we want to show them something cool and they do not really consider it as cool as we believe, we can of course think that they are idiot (some of them are) but most of the time we can also think that may be we stayed too long in our little boxes and the world moved (interfaced well with c, fast, cool frameworks, has cool tools, processes (integration...), cool UIs, web stuff.....). So each time we get down because we do not see the little flame opening in the yes of the others we can think hard and get from them what we missed. I really happy to get exposed to student acid tests, this is a valuable feedback and I wanted to share that with you. Stef |
Re: realized and learned something today :)
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Stef, very true, I agree 100%
Janko On 30. 12. 2010 22:56, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > Hi guys > > I think that over the years I (but also many of you, I know) tried to expose newbies to smalltalk or our culture. > And often we get bad reactions, bad windows, bad colors, slow, why not in svn, ..... > I think that showing Smalltalk to newbies is the best we can do to ourselves, not really to attract new people > but also to get a large kick in the %^&* because most of the time students are not stupid, they are exposed to > other technos. So each time we believe we want to show them something cool and they do not really > consider it as cool as we believe, we can of course think that they are idiot (some of them are) but > most of the time we can also think that may be we stayed too long in our little boxes and the world > moved (interfaced well with c, fast, cool frameworks, has cool tools, processes (integration...), cool UIs, web stuff.....). > So each time we get down because we do not see the little flame opening in the yes of the others > we can think hard and get from them what we missed. > > I really happy to get exposed to student acid tests, this is a valuable feedback and I wanted to share that with you. > > Stef > -- Janko Mivšek AIDA/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si |
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Thanks janko.
We should pay attention to get old guys in a private club sure that we understand everything when kids are ruling the world out there. Let us the kids kick our truth, we will just get more credible and stronger. Stef On Dec 30, 2010, at 11:11 PM, Janko Mivšek wrote: > Stef, very true, I agree 100% > > Janko > > On 30. 12. 2010 22:56, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >> Hi guys >> >> I think that over the years I (but also many of you, I know) tried to expose newbies to smalltalk or our culture. >> And often we get bad reactions, bad windows, bad colors, slow, why not in svn, ..... >> I think that showing Smalltalk to newbies is the best we can do to ourselves, not really to attract new people >> but also to get a large kick in the %^&* because most of the time students are not stupid, they are exposed to >> other technos. So each time we believe we want to show them something cool and they do not really >> consider it as cool as we believe, we can of course think that they are idiot (some of them are) but >> most of the time we can also think that may be we stayed too long in our little boxes and the world >> moved (interfaced well with c, fast, cool frameworks, has cool tools, processes (integration...), cool UIs, web stuff.....). >> So each time we get down because we do not see the little flame opening in the yes of the others >> we can think hard and get from them what we missed. >> >> I really happy to get exposed to student acid tests, this is a valuable feedback and I wanted to share that with you. >> >> Stef >> > > -- > Janko Mivšek > AIDA/Web > Smalltalk Web Application Server > http://www.aidaweb.si > |
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
Em 30/12/2010 19:56, Stéphane Ducasse < [hidden email] > escreveu:
> Hi guys > I think that over the years I (but also many of you, I know) tried > to expose newbies to smalltalk or our culture. And often we get bad > reactions, bad windows, bad colors, slow, why not in svn, ..... I Those specific reactions are more likely to be about Squeak of Pharo than Smalltalk in general, isn't? > think that showing Smalltalk to newbies is the best we can do to > ourselves, not really to attract new people but also to get a large > kick in the %^&* because most of the time students are not stupid, > they are exposed to other technos. Yes. They make an excellent litmus test without the risks of expending lots of money in the 'launching of product' which can become an Edsel of the programming languages... > So each time we believe we want > to show them something cool and they do not really consider it as > cool as we believe, we can of course think that they are idiot (some > of them are) but most of the time we can also think that may be we > stayed too long in our little boxes and the world moved (interfaced > well with c, fast, cool frameworks, has cool tools, processes > (integration...), cool UIs, web stuff.....). Indeed. > So each time we get > down because we do not see the little flame opening in the yes of > the others we can think hard and get from them what we missed. I believe this is the first step to get the best direction to follow. > I really happy to get exposed to student acid tests, this is a > valuable feedback and I wanted to share that with you. Stef, now comes the rub: do you think it is possible to systematize the lessons learned and post a summary for us here? Perhaps we should open a specific Wiki page on this? Regards, -- Cesar Rabak |
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I couldn't agree more with you Stef, specially with
"So each time we get down because we do not see the little flame opening in the eyes of the others we can think hard and get from them what we missed." Many times i try to explain or show some feature expecting that flame... that doesn't show up. Putting expectations on others is a a double-edged weapon but I'll try harder.
Cheers,
Francisco
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:33 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote: Em 30/12/2010 19:56, Stéphane Ducasse < [hidden email] > escreveu: |
Re: realized and learned something today :)
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
Hello,
interesting post here ;-) I also ask myself many times on such considerations. It seems to me students are not more stupid than before. But...may be programming languages are "just" no more an issue nor an important (and so exciting) debate to consider ? Like having a car students need oopl and frameworks to fit what they have to do. They probably are no more interested with the most beautifull car, the most powerful engine, cool things that make the flame up...because they just need to travel 3 km and the driving limitations are here and we speak about environment constraints, blabla. They just need an oopl as they need a car. When the car is out or because the environment is changing, they change and they really know they will have to change many times and that's it...they have to cope with such changing situation and may be most of them don't want to pay for exciting things they don't really need for long time...the same for oopl isn't it ? Then it is difficult to be convinced to investigate in a specific (and not fully integrated) techno in a changing world. But, that does not mean that cars designers, engineers, researchers, constructors are deprecated jobs. I am sure that car designers are not driven to deliver the best car, and I am also sure that some of the engineers, designers think about cool cars, car prototypes with exciting features even if such cool cars and prototypes will never succeed and/or will be never sold. So attracting new people may not be a so important issue (eumh)...but the idea behind pharo is that people continue to learn and progress in delivering and proposing cool things in a productive environment and that is a really attractive perspective. And pharo may probably influence future developments in other environments, frameworks, emerging future languages or/and dialects, etc. I am not sure that students are enthousiastics with the other technos they are obliged to use ! In fact they aren't. Herve On 30 déc. 2010, at 22:56, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi guys > > I think that over the years I (but also many of you, I know) tried to expose newbies to smalltalk or our culture. > And often we get bad reactions, bad windows, bad colors, slow, why not in svn, ..... > I think that showing Smalltalk to newbies is the best we can do to ourselves, not really to attract new people > but also to get a large kick in the %^&* because most of the time students are not stupid, they are exposed to > other technos. So each time we believe we want to show them something cool and they do not really > consider it as cool as we believe, we can of course think that they are idiot (some of them are) but > most of the time we can also think that may be we stayed too long in our little boxes and the world > moved (interfaced well with c, fast, cool frameworks, has cool tools, processes (integration...), cool UIs, web stuff.....). > So each time we get down because we do not see the little flame opening in the yes of the others > we can think hard and get from them what we missed. > > I really happy to get exposed to student acid tests, this is a valuable feedback and I wanted to share that with you. > > Stef > |
Re: realized and learned something today :)
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
I reckon Pharo has already addressed some of the "bad windows, bad colors, slow, why not in svn, ..... " complaints but it is a very very good idea to listen to what everyone (not just the old dudes: http://www.cafepress.com/redhillstrading.329889873) wants Pharo to be to set the roadmap :)
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In reply to this post by csrabak
On Dec 31, 2010, at 2:33 AM, [hidden email] wrote: > Em 30/12/2010 19:56, Stéphane Ducasse < [hidden email] > escreveu: > >> Hi guys >> I think that over the years I (but also many of you, I know) tried >> to expose newbies to smalltalk or our culture. And often we get bad >> reactions, bad windows, bad colors, slow, why not in svn, ..... I > > Those specific reactions are more likely to be about Squeak of Pharo > than Smalltalk in general, isn't? why do you think that VW UI is appealing or that the class creation in VW is trivial? >> think that showing Smalltalk to newbies is the best we can do to >> ourselves, not really to attract new people but also to get a large >> kick in the %^&* because most of the time students are not stupid, >> they are exposed to other technos. > > Yes. They make an excellent litmus test without the risks of expending > lots of money in the 'launching of product' which can become an Edsel > of the programming languages... > >> So each time we believe we want >> to show them something cool and they do not really consider it as >> cool as we believe, we can of course think that they are idiot (some >> of them are) but most of the time we can also think that may be we >> stayed too long in our little boxes and the world moved (interfaced >> well with c, fast, cool frameworks, has cool tools, processes >> (integration...), cool UIs, web stuff.....). > > Indeed. > >> So each time we get >> down because we do not see the little flame opening in the yes of >> the others we can think hard and get from them what we missed. > > I believe this is the first step to get the best direction to follow. Not automatically this is not because people think that A is needed that it is needed but this is a good reality check. >> I really happy to get exposed to student acid tests, this is a >> valuable feedback and I wanted to share that with you. > > Stef, now comes the rub: do you think it is possible to systematize > the lessons learned and post a summary for us here? Not really I do not record them but - headless - good ui - not 20 tools to do the same but different - github/make to build the vm - decent integration tools - not spaghetti code (you know Morph with just 800 methods show up like a ugly class in Quality lectures) - ... > > Perhaps we should open a specific Wiki page on this? > > Regards, > > -- > Cesar Rabak > |
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On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 9:42 AM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am not sure if appealing, but more "normal" for sure. I don't say better. I just want to say that VW is more similar to IDEs from others lanaguages than what Squeak/Pharo is.
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In reply to this post by Francisco Ortiz Peñaloza
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 3:59 AM, Francisco Ortiz Peñaloza <[hidden email]> wrote: I couldn't agree more with you Stef, specially with On the other side, I've taught VB, Delphi, Java, Python, Ruby and Pharo. I've seen more little flames with Pharo than in any other programming ecosystem. May be I'm an eternal optimist but when you make OO newbie students get the one-click image, develop a tiny little project, debug it and share it on SqueakSource in 4 hours, that rocks.
I think that in course the show must go on, it should be like if you are a musician and you get on stage. So like musicians share good tunes and scores to create their show, we can share good kata which provides the "Ahaaaa" effect. Indeed this is what I'm trying to do with Pharocasts and it's great when you can show these katas in course.
Laurent.
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Re: realized and learned something today :)
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In reply to this post by Geert Claes
I was not specifically talking about pharo more about the fact that we can all ask ourselves when is the last
time that we got ready to exposed ourselves to the sharp eyes of others. Because this is good to believe that we are the best and it may work in a nice little club in a small village may be we are important and know the truth but if you go to a real city then reality is just different. Now about the old dudes tshirt even the color is bad :) may be anti marketing works when this is trendy to be anti-fame but I doubt about it. Stef On Dec 31, 2010, at 9:13 AM, Geert Claes wrote: > > I reckon Pharo has already addressed some of the "bad windows, bad colors, > slow, why not in svn, ..... " complaints but it is a very very good idea to > listen to what everyone (not just the old dudes: > http://www.cafepress.com/redhillstrading.329889873) wants Pharo to be to set > the roadmap :) > > http://forum.world.st/file/n3169180/olddude.jpg > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/realized-and-learned-something-today-tp3168835p3169180.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > |
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On 31 December 2010 14:59, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I was not specifically talking about pharo more about the fact that we can all ask ourselves when is the last > time that we got ready to exposed ourselves to the sharp eyes of others. > Because this is good to believe that we are the best and it may work in a nice little club in a small village may be we are important > and know the truth but if you go to a real city then reality is just different. > Everyone have a sense of beauty. Its just happens that we having different tastes. And that's ok. But then, when it going about measurable things, like features, robustness, error-free etc.. then of course it is silly to blindly pretend that we already have the best in the world. We can do better. And for me, i never needed to have a sharp eye from outside to understand it. :) > Now about the old dudes tshirt even the color is bad :) may be anti marketing works when this is trendy to be anti-fame but I doubt about it. > > Stef > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. |
Re: realized and learned something today :)
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
El vie, 31-12-2010 a las 14:59 +0100, Stéphane Ducasse escribió:
> Because this is good to believe that we are the best and it may work in a nice little club in a small village may be we are important > and know the truth but if you go to a real city then reality is just different. +10 -- Miguel Cobá http://twitter.com/MiguelCobaMtz http://miguel.leugim.com.mx |
Re: realized and learned something today :)
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
Stef,
I approve<g>, provided you promise to keep it in perspective. If you are getting another layer of expectation of how computers work, then great. If you are allowing people with no image-based experience to discourage you, then please try to categorize their reactions into things that they will outgrow and things that we probably should address - there will be some of each. It might be informative to split a small group of newcomers, give half of them Squeak 3.8 or something, and half of them the current Pharo. It's an interesting thought experiment at least, and hopefully it illuminates the massive progress in Pharo. On the minute front, I think that fast dragging should be enabled by default; Watery users appear to have it regardless of the setting. Overall, the GUI is getting pretty good. Eventually Pharo's dependence on "the" world menu will become problematic. I don't know that we need native windows nearly as much as we could benefit from the discipline they would force on us. It would be nice to be able to use one native shell per tool, but having everything in one main window can be useful too. Silent failures need to be hunted down and killed. It sounds like good FFI enhancements are on the way. Pharo probably could be faster. Bill ________________________________________ From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse [[hidden email]] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 4:56 PM To: Pharo Development Subject: [Pharo-project] realized and learned something today :) Hi guys I think that over the years I (but also many of you, I know) tried to expose newbies to smalltalk or our culture. And often we get bad reactions, bad windows, bad colors, slow, why not in svn, ..... I think that showing Smalltalk to newbies is the best we can do to ourselves, not really to attract new people but also to get a large kick in the %^&* because most of the time students are not stupid, they are exposed to other technos. So each time we believe we want to show them something cool and they do not really consider it as cool as we believe, we can of course think that they are idiot (some of them are) but most of the time we can also think that may be we stayed too long in our little boxes and the world moved (interfaced well with c, fast, cool frameworks, has cool tools, processes (integration...), cool UIs, web stuff.....). So each time we get down because we do not see the little flame opening in the yes of the others we can think hard and get from them what we missed. I really happy to get exposed to student acid tests, this is a valuable feedback and I wanted to share that with you. Stef |
Re: realized and learned something today :)
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In reply to this post by Miguel Cobá
Thanks miguel it was the essence of my message to myself and others :)
I shared it with you because been aware of that will only make all of us stronger and more sensitive to the outside world :) > El vie, 31-12-2010 a las 14:59 +0100, Stéphane Ducasse escribió: > >> Because this is good to believe that we are the best and it may work in a nice little club in a small village may be we are important >> and know the truth but if you go to a real city then reality is just different. > > +10 > > -- > Miguel Cobá > http://twitter.com/MiguelCobaMtz > http://miguel.leugim.com.mx > > > > |
Re: realized and learned something today :)
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In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
My point was not about pharo against squeak. I'm not at the microscopic level....
I'm just thinking that remembering when is the last we were bold and face a complete room to students knowing Java, ruby.... is a good way to get feedback on what we believe is cool. Stef > Stef, > > I approve<g>, provided you promise to keep it in perspective. If you are getting another layer of expectation of how computers work, then great. If you are allowing people with no image-based experience to discourage you, then please try to categorize their reactions into things that they will outgrow and things that we probably should address - there will be some of each. > > It might be informative to split a small group of newcomers, give half of them Squeak 3.8 or something, and half of them the current Pharo. It's an interesting thought experiment at least, and hopefully it illuminates the massive progress in Pharo. > > On the minute front, I think that fast dragging should be enabled by default; Watery users appear to have it regardless of the setting. Overall, the GUI is getting pretty good. Eventually Pharo's dependence on "the" world menu will become problematic. I don't know that we need native windows nearly as much as we could benefit from the discipline they would force on us. It would be nice to be able to use one native shell per tool, but having everything in one main window can be useful too. > > Silent failures need to be hunted down and killed. It sounds like good FFI enhancements are on the way. Pharo probably could be faster. > > Bill > > > > ________________________________________ > From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse [[hidden email]] > Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 4:56 PM > To: Pharo Development > Subject: [Pharo-project] realized and learned something today :) > > Hi guys > > I think that over the years I (but also many of you, I know) tried to expose newbies to smalltalk or our culture. > And often we get bad reactions, bad windows, bad colors, slow, why not in svn, ..... > I think that showing Smalltalk to newbies is the best we can do to ourselves, not really to attract new people > but also to get a large kick in the %^&* because most of the time students are not stupid, they are exposed to > other technos. So each time we believe we want to show them something cool and they do not really > consider it as cool as we believe, we can of course think that they are idiot (some of them are) but > most of the time we can also think that may be we stayed too long in our little boxes and the world > moved (interfaced well with c, fast, cool frameworks, has cool tools, processes (integration...), cool UIs, web stuff.....). > So each time we get down because we do not see the little flame opening in the yes of the others > we can think hard and get from them what we missed. > > I really happy to get exposed to student acid tests, this is a valuable feedback and I wanted to share that with you. > > Stef > |
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It vastly depends on the way it's presented. I'm a forth year student
myself, I've been working for several years in java shops (& flex recently) and since I've discovered Pharo I started avoiding everything else :) The image itself, dev tools in the same vm that runs the application, excellent frameworks (seaside is much much much more easier to setup and also that much easier to use compared to any, any java web framework), the really nice api/kernel classes. I DO love it!, and I've been exposed to basically everything else popular :) However, one has to walk the path of pain (manually editing source code without highlight and completion, non-verbose compilers, missing debuggers, weird runtime dependencies/dll/jar hells, etc) to fully appreciate pharo and smalltalk in general. Otherwise he won't have the base to compare. Stanislav Paskalev On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 7:06 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote: > My point was not about pharo against squeak. I'm not at the microscopic level.... > I'm just thinking that remembering when is the last we were bold and face a complete room to students knowing Java, ruby.... > is a good way to get feedback on what we believe is cool. > > Stef |
Re: realized and learned something today :)
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
Smalltalk invented the graphical user interface and IDE 30 years ago and this is where I reckon some re-inventing is long overdue with a focus ons user experience and usability :) |
Re: realized and learned something today :)
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Smalltalk didn't do it: Dan did it USING Smalltalk :) No argument that there is room for improvement, but the changes in Pharo over the past couple of years should not be ignored. For years, I beat drums that Morphic was a great simulation environment, and that it was time for it to be used to simulate a modern user interface. Pinesoft has made wonderful progress on that.
________________________________________ From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Geert Claes [[hidden email]] Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 2:26 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] realized and learned something today :) Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > > Because this is good to believe that we are the best and it may work in a > nice little club in a small village may be we are important and know the > truth but if you go to a real city then reality is just different. > Smalltalk invented the graphical user interface and IDE 30 years ago and this is where I reckon some re-inventing is long overdue with a focus ons user experience and usability :) -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/realized-and-learned-something-today-tp3168835p3169737.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. |
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In reply to this post by solar_sea
Thanks stan :)
If you are looking for a master topic let us know :) Now my point was more on us getting reality check than students not adoring our language. Stef > It vastly depends on the way it's presented. I'm a forth year student > myself, I've been working for several years in java shops (& flex > recently) and since I've discovered Pharo I started avoiding > everything else :) > > The image itself, dev tools in the same vm that runs the application, > excellent frameworks (seaside is much much much more easier to setup > and also that much easier to use compared to any, any java web > framework), the really nice api/kernel classes. I DO love it!, and > I've been exposed to basically everything else popular :) > > However, one has to walk the path of pain (manually editing source > code without highlight and completion, non-verbose compilers, missing > debuggers, weird runtime dependencies/dll/jar hells, etc) to fully > appreciate pharo and smalltalk in general. Otherwise he won't have the > base to compare. > Stanislav Paskalev > > > > On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 7:06 PM, Stéphane Ducasse > <[hidden email]> wrote: >> My point was not about pharo against squeak. I'm not at the microscopic level.... >> I'm just thinking that remembering when is the last we were bold and face a complete room to students knowing Java, ruby.... >> is a good way to get feedback on what we believe is cool. >> >> Stef > |
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