Norbert wrote: >Ok, nothing to do here. Thank you, Captain Hindsight! While I enjoy your humor and politeness on one side I really doubt that there is nothing to do here. How often do we face the outage of SqS. And now a private server is yet again gone without an easy restore/access to the backup. It's nice that we can all check our caches to find the mcz's - but is this the backup strategy to go for the future? I provided the ConfigurationBrowser in Pharo to easily load Metacello packages directly from within the image and spend a lot of time checking appropriate configs for the various Pharo versions. On one side we invest in making it easier for people to load packages on the other side it often did not work due to this brickle hosting we currently have. Don't we need a serious discussion and actions on how to get a reliable infrastructure with official mirrors? By providing a prebuilt SqueakSource in the past [1] I hoped the SqS situation will get better when people may setup own servers and we have more and more mirrors on the net. It did not happen. We now know that SqS is the "old way". We currently face decisions what servers to use (SS3, SmalltalkHub, ...) see issue #6093 [2] Now we move to SS3 and SmalltalkHub. Can we answer the question how reliable they are? I like SmalltalkHub a lot. But still it is centralized and if it is down it is down for all. Dont we need answers to the question how independent our infrastructure will be in the future? If it is backuped, mirrored or restorable? Dale proposed mirroring for Metacello [3]. We also have filetree [4] for directory-based Monticello packages enabling the use of Git, SVN, ... allowing us to use more reliable infrastructure like GitHub, ... Should we care? But maybe I should shut up and wait until someone reboots Squeaksource again (which is down today yet again) Bye T. [1] http://astares.blogspot.de/2005/12/squeaksource-server-image.html [1] http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6093 [2] http://code.google.com/p/metacello/issues/detail?id=152 [3] https://github.com/dalehenrich/filetree |
There must be a business behind all this to take care of the funding and the daily operations. Is the consortium going to be taking care of these aspects? Phil 2012/7/4 Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]>
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On 04 Jul 2012, at 09:28, [hidden email] wrote: > There must be a business behind all this to take care of the funding and the daily operations. More than a year ago I did this: MCHttpRepository location: 'http://mc-mirror.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/ZincHTTPComponents/' user: '' password: '' It is a proof of concept, a (now no longer up to date) copy of a repository DIRECTLY hosted by Amazon S3 (works only for public, read-only repositories). It would not be a lot of work to set up a copy process that keeps the mirror up to date for the top 100 projects or so. I would cost some monthly resources though. I also did this: http://mc.stfx.eu which is a full MC repo (storage only) that is also backed by S3. Sven -- Sven Van Caekenberghe http://stfx.eu Smalltalk is the Red Pill |
Github and Sourceforge are businesses and that's why they stay around. Without that, well, why not get some resources/space paid by the upcoming "loi 1901 association" in a couple of dedicated servers and set them up with your system?
Sven, I am willing to work with you on this, financially included. If Pharo is going to be thriving, an ecosystem has to blossom anyway. I am about to be on holidays in 2 weeks, and you are welcome to come over for a beer and some setup fun!
Phil 2012/7/4 Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]>
Philippe Back Dramatic Performance Improvements Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail: [hidden email] | Web: http://philippeback.eu | Blog: http://philippeback.be High Octane SPRL rue cour Boisacq 101 1301 Bierges Belgium |
In reply to this post by philippeback
On Jul 4, 2012, at 9:28 AM, [hidden email] wrote: > There must be a business behind all this to take care of the funding and the daily operations. > > Is the consortium going to be taking care of these aspects? It is already as a fireman. Esteban is payed by INRIA for helping to set up the consortium and he is losing time with such issues. Indeed we should think about how to replicate information. About smalltalkHub one deal was that INRIA will host it and replicate on three hosts. Now since smalltalkHub was delayed for more than 8 months the people changed agenda. We will check that again with nicolas and christophe because right now it is hosted at object fusion. Now we were thinking that ESUG could help there because ESUG has also several servers to run and marcus does not have the time to deal with multiple and different servers. So one central one to manage ESUG and SmalltalkHub would make sense but nothing was acted so far. Stef > > Phil > > 2012/7/4 Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]> > > Norbert wrote: > >Ok, nothing to do here. Thank you, Captain Hindsight! > > While I enjoy your humor and politeness on one side I really > doubt that there is nothing to do here. > > How often do we face the outage of SqS. And now a private > server is yet again gone without an easy restore/access to > the backup. It's nice that we can all check our caches to > find the mcz's - but is this the backup strategy to go for > the future? > > I provided the ConfigurationBrowser in Pharo to easily load > Metacello packages directly from within the image and spend > a lot of time checking appropriate configs for the various > Pharo versions. On one side we invest in making it easier > for people to load packages on the other side it often > did not work due to this brickle hosting we currently have. > > Don't we need a serious discussion and actions on how > to get a reliable infrastructure with official mirrors? > > By providing a prebuilt SqueakSource in the past [1] I hoped > the SqS situation will get better when people may setup own > servers and we have more and more mirrors on the net. It did > not happen. We now know that SqS is the "old way". > > We currently face decisions what servers to use (SS3, SmalltalkHub, ...) > see issue #6093 [2] > > Now we move to SS3 and SmalltalkHub. Can we answer the question > how reliable they are? > > I like SmalltalkHub a lot. But still it is centralized and > if it is down it is down for all. Dont we need answers to the > question how independent our infrastructure will be in the future? > If it is backuped, mirrored or restorable? > > Dale proposed mirroring for Metacello [3]. We also have filetree [4] > for directory-based Monticello packages enabling the use of Git, > SVN, ... allowing us to use more reliable infrastructure like GitHub, ... > Should we care? > > But maybe I should shut up and wait until someone reboots > Squeaksource again (which is down today yet again) > > Bye > T. > > [1] http://astares.blogspot.de/2005/12/squeaksource-server-image.html > [1] http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6093 > [2] http://code.google.com/p/metacello/issues/detail?id=152 > [3] https://github.com/dalehenrich/filetree > > > > > |
In reply to this post by philippeback
On Jul 4, 2012, at 9:49 AM, [hidden email] wrote: > Github and Sourceforge are businesses and that's why they stay around. > > Without that, well, why not get some resources/space paid by the upcoming "loi 1901 association" in a couple of dedicated servers and set them up with your system? About S3 we want to control the cost. Now phil the problem is that so far we should check if we can pay somebody after that all the rest is a bonus. So this means that so far, somebody will do it on his free time. Marcus administrates the ESUG part during years and he can continue and we could add one SmalltalkHub Server Our biggest concerns so far is that INRIA got staff reduction and the servers went really unstable. So may be we will roll our own. Stef > > Sven, I am willing to work with you on this, financially included. If Pharo is going to be thriving, an ecosystem has to blossom anyway. I am about to be on holidays in 2 weeks, and you are welcome to come over for a beer and some setup fun! > > Phil > > 2012/7/4 Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> > > On 04 Jul 2012, at 09:28, [hidden email] wrote: > > > There must be a business behind all this to take care of the funding and the daily operations. > > More than a year ago I did this: > > MCHttpRepository > location: 'http://mc-mirror.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/ZincHTTPComponents/' > user: '' > password: '' > > It is a proof of concept, a (now no longer up to date) copy of a repository DIRECTLY hosted by Amazon S3 (works only for public, read-only repositories). It would not be a lot of work to set up a copy process that keeps the mirror up to date for the top 100 projects or so. I would cost some monthly resources though. > > I also did this: > > http://mc.stfx.eu > > which is a full MC repo (storage only) that is also backed by S3. > > Sven > > -- > Sven Van Caekenberghe > http://stfx.eu > Smalltalk is the Red Pill > > > > > > > > > -- > Philippe Back > Dramatic Performance Improvements > Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail: [hidden email] | Web: http://philippeback.eu | Blog: http://philippeback.be > > High Octane SPRL > rue cour Boisacq 101 > 1301 Bierges > Belgium |
Yet more impetus to push the marketing sliders a couple of notches up.
I'll ask around if I can get some support from my corporate clients to host this as they do have a ton of data centers. Phil
2012/7/4 Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]>
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
Hi guys,
I volunteer for replicate hosting of basic community infractructure like forthcomming SmalltalkHub on my server located at Hetzner in Germany. Going just recently through old server crash and being able to restore main functionality back on new server in few hours, you can expect for me to have some experience running with all needed reliability and high availability in mind. By the way, dedicated server at Hetzner costs me just 50 EUR/month, and this is 4 core 16GB RAM 2x3TB disk machine. Prices are therefore so low that everyone can afford such a server now, ESUG and/or Pharo consortium at least :) Best regards Janko On 04. 07. 2012 10:23, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > > On Jul 4, 2012, at 9:28 AM, [hidden email] wrote: > >> There must be a business behind all this to take care of the funding and the daily operations. >> >> Is the consortium going to be taking care of these aspects? > > It is already as a fireman. > > Esteban is payed by INRIA for helping to set up the consortium and he is losing time > with such issues. > > Indeed we should think about how to replicate information. > About smalltalkHub one deal was that INRIA will host it and replicate on three hosts. > Now since smalltalkHub was delayed for more than 8 months the people changed agenda. > > We will check that again with nicolas and christophe because right now it is hosted at object fusion. > Now we were thinking that ESUG could help there because ESUG has also several servers to run and > marcus does not have the time to deal with multiple and different servers. So one central one to manage > ESUG and SmalltalkHub would make sense but nothing was acted so far. > > > Stef > > > >> >> Phil >> >> 2012/7/4 Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]> >> >> Norbert wrote: >>> Ok, nothing to do here. Thank you, Captain Hindsight! >> >> While I enjoy your humor and politeness on one side I really >> doubt that there is nothing to do here. >> >> How often do we face the outage of SqS. And now a private >> server is yet again gone without an easy restore/access to >> the backup. It's nice that we can all check our caches to >> find the mcz's - but is this the backup strategy to go for >> the future? >> >> I provided the ConfigurationBrowser in Pharo to easily load >> Metacello packages directly from within the image and spend >> a lot of time checking appropriate configs for the various >> Pharo versions. On one side we invest in making it easier >> for people to load packages on the other side it often >> did not work due to this brickle hosting we currently have. >> >> Don't we need a serious discussion and actions on how >> to get a reliable infrastructure with official mirrors? >> >> By providing a prebuilt SqueakSource in the past [1] I hoped >> the SqS situation will get better when people may setup own >> servers and we have more and more mirrors on the net. It did >> not happen. We now know that SqS is the "old way". >> >> We currently face decisions what servers to use (SS3, SmalltalkHub, ...) >> see issue #6093 [2] >> >> Now we move to SS3 and SmalltalkHub. Can we answer the question >> how reliable they are? >> >> I like SmalltalkHub a lot. But still it is centralized and >> if it is down it is down for all. Dont we need answers to the >> question how independent our infrastructure will be in the future? >> If it is backuped, mirrored or restorable? >> >> Dale proposed mirroring for Metacello [3]. We also have filetree [4] >> for directory-based Monticello packages enabling the use of Git, >> SVN, ... allowing us to use more reliable infrastructure like GitHub, ... >> Should we care? >> >> But maybe I should shut up and wait until someone reboots >> Squeaksource again (which is down today yet again) >> >> Bye >> T. >> >> [1] http://astares.blogspot.de/2005/12/squeaksource-server-image.html >> [1] http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6093 >> [2] http://code.google.com/p/metacello/issues/detail?id=152 >> [3] https://github.com/dalehenrich/filetree >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- Janko Mivšek Aida/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si |
IT'S CALLED GIT!!!
++++++++++++++++++ Or like any other service that is also used by non smalltalkers! It's incredible how much effort goes into improving something like Monticello, where there are stable wide spread solutions out there that work since years. - We have an alpha implementation of FS-Git - We have a quite stable implementation of Filetree - We have a quite stable implementation of Cypress I really like Smalltalkhub, but if we could focus such an effort on these 3 tools here, we can have a nice solution that outperforms MC in **EVERY** aspect. I do not have much time on my side right now, but I am working towards a fully git based solution in pharo, and everybody else should too. cami |
In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek
yes we discussed about that with marcus.
Now our concern was more about the people maintaining it. Stef On Jul 4, 2012, at 11:30 AM, Janko Mivšek wrote: > Hi guys, > > I volunteer for replicate hosting of basic community infractructure like > forthcomming SmalltalkHub on my server located at Hetzner in Germany. > > Going just recently through old server crash and being able to restore > main functionality back on new server in few hours, you can expect for > me to have some experience running with all needed reliability and high > availability in mind. > > By the way, dedicated server at Hetzner costs me just 50 EUR/month, and > this is 4 core 16GB RAM 2x3TB disk machine. Prices are therefore so low > that everyone can afford such a server now, ESUG and/or Pharo consortium > at least :) > > Best regards > Janko > > > > On 04. 07. 2012 10:23, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >> >> On Jul 4, 2012, at 9:28 AM, [hidden email] wrote: >> >>> There must be a business behind all this to take care of the funding and the daily operations. >>> >>> Is the consortium going to be taking care of these aspects? >> >> It is already as a fireman. >> >> Esteban is payed by INRIA for helping to set up the consortium and he is losing time >> with such issues. >> >> Indeed we should think about how to replicate information. >> About smalltalkHub one deal was that INRIA will host it and replicate on three hosts. >> Now since smalltalkHub was delayed for more than 8 months the people changed agenda. >> >> We will check that again with nicolas and christophe because right now it is hosted at object fusion. >> Now we were thinking that ESUG could help there because ESUG has also several servers to run and >> marcus does not have the time to deal with multiple and different servers. So one central one to manage >> ESUG and SmalltalkHub would make sense but nothing was acted so far. >> >> >> Stef >> >> >> >>> >>> Phil >>> >>> 2012/7/4 Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]> >>> >>> Norbert wrote: >>>> Ok, nothing to do here. Thank you, Captain Hindsight! >>> >>> While I enjoy your humor and politeness on one side I really >>> doubt that there is nothing to do here. >>> >>> How often do we face the outage of SqS. And now a private >>> server is yet again gone without an easy restore/access to >>> the backup. It's nice that we can all check our caches to >>> find the mcz's - but is this the backup strategy to go for >>> the future? >>> >>> I provided the ConfigurationBrowser in Pharo to easily load >>> Metacello packages directly from within the image and spend >>> a lot of time checking appropriate configs for the various >>> Pharo versions. On one side we invest in making it easier >>> for people to load packages on the other side it often >>> did not work due to this brickle hosting we currently have. >>> >>> Don't we need a serious discussion and actions on how >>> to get a reliable infrastructure with official mirrors? >>> >>> By providing a prebuilt SqueakSource in the past [1] I hoped >>> the SqS situation will get better when people may setup own >>> servers and we have more and more mirrors on the net. It did >>> not happen. We now know that SqS is the "old way". >>> >>> We currently face decisions what servers to use (SS3, SmalltalkHub, ...) >>> see issue #6093 [2] >>> >>> Now we move to SS3 and SmalltalkHub. Can we answer the question >>> how reliable they are? >>> >>> I like SmalltalkHub a lot. But still it is centralized and >>> if it is down it is down for all. Dont we need answers to the >>> question how independent our infrastructure will be in the future? >>> If it is backuped, mirrored or restorable? >>> >>> Dale proposed mirroring for Metacello [3]. We also have filetree [4] >>> for directory-based Monticello packages enabling the use of Git, >>> SVN, ... allowing us to use more reliable infrastructure like GitHub, ... >>> Should we care? >>> >>> But maybe I should shut up and wait until someone reboots >>> Squeaksource again (which is down today yet again) >>> >>> Bye >>> T. >>> >>> [1] http://astares.blogspot.de/2005/12/squeaksource-server-image.html >>> [1] http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6093 >>> [2] http://code.google.com/p/metacello/issues/detail?id=152 >>> [3] https://github.com/dalehenrich/filetree >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > -- > Janko Mivšek > Aida/Web > Smalltalk Web Application Server > http://www.aidaweb.si > |
In reply to this post by Camillo Bruni-3
camillo
we are not ready and we do not want to rush. Stef On Jul 4, 2012, at 1:30 PM, Camillo Bruni wrote: > IT'S CALLED GIT!!! > ++++++++++++++++++ > > Or like any other service that is also used by non smalltalkers! > > It's incredible how much effort goes into improving something like > Monticello, where there are stable wide spread solutions out there > that work since years. > > > - We have an alpha implementation of FS-Git > - We have a quite stable implementation of Filetree > - We have a quite stable implementation of Cypress > > > I really like Smalltalkhub, but if we could focus such an effort on > these 3 tools here, we can have a nice solution that outperforms > MC in **EVERY** aspect. > > I do not have much time on my side right now, but I am working towards > a fully git based solution in pharo, and everybody else should too. > > cami > > |
In reply to this post by Camillo Bruni-3
I am using Mercurial for all of the other projects and technologies.
With a full copy of everything locally, it helps indeed when we get crashes... But GIT/Hg isn't giving you the change sorter.
2012/7/4 Camillo Bruni <[hidden email]> IT'S CALLED GIT!!! Philippe Back Dramatic Performance Improvements Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail: [hidden email] | Web: http://philippeback.eu | Blog: http://philippeback.be High Octane SPRL rue cour Boisacq 101 1301 Bierges Belgium |
On 04 Jul 2012, at 13:50, [hidden email] wrote: > I am using Mercurial for all of the other projects and technologies. > > With a full copy of everything locally, it helps indeed when we get crashes... > > But GIT/Hg isn't giving you the change sorter. I have used/tried FileTree/Git(hub) a bit and it is cool and it works. But I do miss (tools) integration in the image. The workflow also changes a bit, it is no longer all Smalltalk. IMHO it is not yet quite ready. Sven |
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
On 2012-07-04, at 13:50, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > camillo > > we are not ready and we do not want to rush. > you're kidding me... FS-Git is out there since 2 damn years! - I did a 1 week sprint to improve the performance on it and fix some bugs - I wrote in 1 day a tiny wrapper around it so a git repos can be directly used with MC => So I recycle 100% of the UI AKA being backwards compatible from MC VersionInfo on Captain Hindsight speeking: If we'd invested the time gone into Smalltalk into that project we would already be done! But somebody had to push that smalltalkhub thing right? I remember I already had a hard fight here on the mailing list in favor of git. So I am particularly frustrated. > On Jul 4, 2012, at 1:30 PM, Camillo Bruni wrote: > >> IT'S CALLED GIT!!! >> ++++++++++++++++++ >> >> Or like any other service that is also used by non smalltalkers! >> >> It's incredible how much effort goes into improving something like >> Monticello, where there are stable wide spread solutions out there >> that work since years. >> >> >> - We have an alpha implementation of FS-Git >> - We have a quite stable implementation of Filetree >> - We have a quite stable implementation of Cypress >> >> >> I really like Smalltalkhub, but if we could focus such an effort on >> these 3 tools here, we can have a nice solution that outperforms >> MC in **EVERY** aspect. >> >> I do not have much time on my side right now, but I am working towards >> a fully git based solution in pharo, and everybody else should too. >> >> cami >> >> > > |
In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Am I wrong considering migration to Git-or-AnythingElseTextOriented to be a give up on hopes for a real object-oriented source control/management as it could and should be in Smalltalk?
On Wednesday, 4 July 2012 г. at 16:02, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
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On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 2:09 PM, Dennis Schetinin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Am I wrong considering migration to Git-or-AnythingElseTextOriented to be a > give up on hopes for a real object-oriented source control/management as it > could and should be in Smalltalk? can you think of any feature we could have now we couldn't with Git? -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry |
In reply to this post by Camillo Bruni-3
Frustration is a good thing. Especially as a strong motivation factor :-D
All Smalltalk is nice but I doubt Freetype and Cairo are very Smalltalkish. And Git itself is quite a couple a moving parts on the client side.
That kind of argument is moot. As long as you are able to make it run properly, and it is useful, why not becoming our Git-hero ? :-p
2012/7/4 Camillo Bruni <[hidden email]>
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In reply to this post by Dennis Schetinin
Hi, So, what we have now is an old CMS, and a lot of tools trying to be compatible with that old system. Imagine if GIT would tried to be compatible with CVS... and to create an object control management is a considerable effort, no one want to do, and probably pointless... at least right now. best, Esteban
On Jul 4, 2012, at 2:09 PM, Dennis Schetinin wrote:
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In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
On 2012-07-04, at 14:02, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: > > On 04 Jul 2012, at 13:50, [hidden email] wrote: > >> I am using Mercurial for all of the other projects and technologies. >> >> With a full copy of everything locally, it helps indeed when we get crashes... >> >> But GIT/Hg isn't giving you the change sorter. > > I have used/tried FileTree/Git(hub) a bit and it is cool and it works. > But I do miss (tools) integration in the image. > The workflow also changes a bit, it is no longer all Smalltalk. > > IMHO it is not yet quite ready. indeed. I remember that my solution didn't change a thing from the image side experience. It was "simply" a git backend for MC. |
Camillo Bruni wrote: > On 2012-07-04, at 14:02, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: > >> On 04 Jul 2012, at 13:50, [hidden email] wrote: >> >>> I am using Mercurial for all of the other projects and technologies. >>> >>> With a full copy of everything locally, it helps indeed when we get crashes... >>> >>> But GIT/Hg isn't giving you the change sorter. >> I have used/tried FileTree/Git(hub) a bit and it is cool and it works. >> But I do miss (tools) integration in the image. >> The workflow also changes a bit, it is no longer all Smalltalk. >> >> IMHO it is not yet quite ready. > > indeed. I remember that my solution didn't change a thing from the image side > experience. It was "simply" a git backend for MC. But, well, you should then do something with near-zero obstacle experience, like mirroring all included-by-default packages on github or butbucket, uploading your wrapper/backend with ConfigurationOf and all bells and whistles into some MC repository (SmalltalkHub?), include with it the code that automatically re-assigns repository paths from SqueakSource/whatever into github, so people can just load it and get in. That way, more or them could actually try. Herby |
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