squeak 4.1 download confusion for Unix, esp Debian

> Going to squeak.org and following the download link for linux in the
> upper right puts you in http://ftp.squeak.org/4.1/unix-linux/.  I don't
> think this is very friendly, especially for a newcomer, for the
> following reasons:
>
> 1. There are multiple files and it's not clear which one(s) to get or
> what their different roles are.
> 2. Some of the files have 4.0 in their names.
> 3. One of the files, judging by the name, is for Darwin.  I believe that
> is BSD, not Linux, based.
>
> If in the download section when clicks on the installation link, which
> in turn directs you to http://squeak.org/Documentation/Installation for
> Unix and http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3616 for Debian.
>
> The former is only about the VM.  The latter says to use a repository on
> squeak.org, but I thought that the current debs were going into mainline
> debian.  (Maybe only for the VM).
>
> I have some suggestions:
>
> Change the "Download" section to "Get Squeak".  The linux link takes you
> to a page recommending that you get if from your distribution, and then
> saying "If your distribution does not have squeak packaged, or if it
> does not have a current package, then you will need the following
> files..."  And finally there should be links to the files.
>
> Ideally, the page would indicate what version was currently packaged in
> each distribution.
>
> Finally, here is my best guess about the numbered confusions above:
> 1. One needs
> http://ftp.squeak.org/4.1/unix-linux/Squeak-4.0.3.2202-linux_i386.tar.gz
> for the VM and http://ftp.squeak.org/4.1/unix-linux/Squeak4.1.zip for
> the image/changes.  One only needs
> http://ftp.squeak.org/4.1/unix-linux/Squeak-4.0.3.2202-src.tar.gz to
> build the VM from source.
> Ignore the darwin file.
>
> 2. The most current Unix VM's are 4.0.  This still surprises me a bit,
> since I thought closures needed VM support and they are advertised as a
> 4.1 feature.  Maybe the necessary VM changes were already in place at
> 4.0.

> On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 07:57:19PM -0700, Ross Boylan wrote:
>> Going to squeak.org and following the download link for linux in the
>> upper right puts you in http://ftp.squeak.org/4.1/unix-linux/.  I don't
>> think this is very friendly, especially for a newcomer, for the
>> following reasons:
>>
>> 1. There are multiple files and it's not clear which one(s) to get or
>> what their different roles are.
>> 2. Some of the files have 4.0 in their names.
>> 3. One of the files, judging by the name, is for Darwin.  I believe that
>> is BSD, not Linux, based.
>>
>> If in the download section when clicks on the installation link, which
>> in turn directs you to http://squeak.org/Documentation/Installation for
>> Unix and http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3616 for Debian.
>>
>> The former is only about the VM.  The latter says to use a repository on
>> squeak.org, but I thought that the current debs were going into mainline
>> debian.  (Maybe only for the VM).
>>
>> I have some suggestions:
>>
>> Change the "Download" section to "Get Squeak".  The linux link takes you
>> to a page recommending that you get if from your distribution, and then
>> saying "If your distribution does not have squeak packaged, or if it
>> does not have a current package, then you will need the following
>> files..."  And finally there should be links to the files.
>>
>> Ideally, the page would indicate what version was currently packaged in
>> each distribution.
>>
>> Finally, here is my best guess about the numbered confusions above:
>> 1. One needs
>> http://ftp.squeak.org/4.1/unix-linux/Squeak-4.0.3.2202-linux_i386.tar.gz
>> for the VM and http://ftp.squeak.org/4.1/unix-linux/Squeak4.1.zip for
>> the image/changes.  One only needs
>> http://ftp.squeak.org/4.1/unix-linux/Squeak-4.0.3.2202-src.tar.gz to
>> build the VM from source.
>> Ignore the darwin file.
>>
>> 2. The most current Unix VM's are 4.0.  This still surprises me a bit,
>> since I thought closures needed VM support and they are advertised as a
>> 4.1 feature.  Maybe the necessary VM changes were already in place at
>> 4.0.
>
> Ross, I don't know how to reduce the confusion, but I do want to explain
> that the version levels of the VM are not, and should not be, the same
> as those for the image. We made version labels for recent VMs that start
> with "4" to give folks the idea that they more or less line up with the
> Squeak 4.x images (and Pharo 1.x images also btw), but maybe that is just
> leading to further confusion(?).
>
> The ideal situation is that any version of the VM can run any version of
> the image, and any image can run on any VM. Of course we cannot reach
> the ideal, but there is still a good deal of independence between the
> VMs and the images. This is a Good Thing.
>
>>
>> 3. Ignore the darwin file.  Should it be cleaned out/relocated, e.g., to
>> OS-X?
>>
>
> Maybe it should be in a "unix" folder instead of "unix-linux", but
> there are so many people using Linux these days that some of them
> might be confused if they had to look for their VM in a "unix" folder.
> My guess would be that anyone loading a darwin VM already knows what
> they are doing, and that most Mac users should be following the link
> to the supported Mac VMs anyway.
>
> Dave
>
>
>

> Hi David -
>
> Check me on this, but wouldn't it be more appropriate to provide RPMs
> (or DEBs or whatever people use these days) and point the vast majority
> of users straight to "their" install? Just like we have a Windows
> installer, we should have Linux RPM and a Mac DMG, no?
>
> Cheers,
>   - Andreas
>
> On 4/22/2010 5:37 PM, David T. Lewis wrote:
> >On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 07:57:19PM -0700, Ross Boylan wrote:
> >>Going to squeak.org and following the download link for linux in the
> >>upper right puts you in http://ftp.squeak.org/4.1/unix-linux/.  I don't
> >>think this is very friendly, especially for a newcomer, for the
> >>following reasons:
> >>
> >>1. There are multiple files and it's not clear which one(s) to get or
> >>what their different roles are.
> >>2. Some of the files have 4.0 in their names.
> >>3. One of the files, judging by the name, is for Darwin.  I believe that
> >>is BSD, not Linux, based.
> >>
> >>If in the download section when clicks on the installation link, which
> >>in turn directs you to http://squeak.org/Documentation/Installation for
> >>Unix and http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3616 for Debian.
> >>
> >>The former is only about the VM.  The latter says to use a repository on
> >>squeak.org, but I thought that the current debs were going into mainline
> >>debian.  (Maybe only for the VM).
> >>
> >>I have some suggestions:
> >>
> >>Change the "Download" section to "Get Squeak".  The linux link takes you
> >>to a page recommending that you get if from your distribution, and then
> >>saying "If your distribution does not have squeak packaged, or if it
> >>does not have a current package, then you will need the following
> >>files..."  And finally there should be links to the files.
> >>
> >>Ideally, the page would indicate what version was currently packaged in
> >>each distribution.
> >>
> >>Finally, here is my best guess about the numbered confusions above:
> >>1. One needs
> >>http://ftp.squeak.org/4.1/unix-linux/Squeak-4.0.3.2202-linux_i386.tar.gz
> >>for the VM and http://ftp.squeak.org/4.1/unix-linux/Squeak4.1.zip for
> >>the image/changes.  One only needs
> >>http://ftp.squeak.org/4.1/unix-linux/Squeak-4.0.3.2202-src.tar.gz to
> >>build the VM from source.
> >>Ignore the darwin file.
> >>
> >>2. The most current Unix VM's are 4.0.  This still surprises me a bit,
> >>since I thought closures needed VM support and they are advertised as a
> >>4.1 feature.  Maybe the necessary VM changes were already in place at
> >>4.0.
> >
> >Ross, I don't know how to reduce the confusion, but I do want to explain
> >that the version levels of the VM are not, and should not be, the same
> >as those for the image. We made version labels for recent VMs that start
> >with "4" to give folks the idea that they more or less line up with the
> >Squeak 4.x images (and Pharo 1.x images also btw), but maybe that is just
> >leading to further confusion(?).
> >
> >The ideal situation is that any version of the VM can run any version of
> >the image, and any image can run on any VM. Of course we cannot reach
> >the ideal, but there is still a good deal of independence between the
> >VMs and the images. This is a Good Thing.
> >
> >>
> >>3. Ignore the darwin file.  Should it be cleaned out/relocated, e.g., to
> >>OS-X?
> >>
> >
> >Maybe it should be in a "unix" folder instead of "unix-linux", but
> >there are so many people using Linux these days that some of them
> >might be confused if they had to look for their VM in a "unix" folder.
> >My guess would be that anyone loading a darwin VM already knows what
> >they are doing, and that most Mac users should be following the link
> >to the supported Mac VMs anyway.
> >
> >Dave
> >
> >
> >
>

> On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 07:57:19PM -0700, Ross Boylan wrote:
> > Going to squeak.org and following the download link for linux in the
> > upper right puts you in http://ftp.squeak.org/4.1/unix-linux/.  I don't
> > think this is very friendly, especially for a newcomer, for the
> > following reasons:
> >
> > 1. There are multiple files and it's not clear which one(s) to get or
> > what their different roles are.
> > 2. Some of the files have 4.0 in their names.
> > 3. One of the files, judging by the name, is for Darwin.  I believe that
> > is BSD, not Linux, based.
> >
> > If in the download section when clicks on the installation link, which
> > in turn directs you to http://squeak.org/Documentation/Installation for
> > Unix and http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3616 for Debian.
> >
> > The former is only about the VM.  The latter says to use a repository on
> > squeak.org, but I thought that the current debs were going into mainline
> > debian.  (Maybe only for the VM).
> >
> > I have some suggestions:
> >
> > Change the "Download" section to "Get Squeak".  The linux link takes you
> > to a page recommending that you get if from your distribution, and then
> > saying "If your distribution does not have squeak packaged, or if it
> > does not have a current package, then you will need the following
> > files..."  And finally there should be links to the files.
> >
> > Ideally, the page would indicate what version was currently packaged in
> > each distribution.
> >
> > Finally, here is my best guess about the numbered confusions above:
> > 1. One needs
> > http://ftp.squeak.org/4.1/unix-linux/Squeak-4.0.3.2202-linux_i386.tar.gz
> > for the VM and http://ftp.squeak.org/4.1/unix-linux/Squeak4.1.zip for
> > the image/changes.  One only needs
> > http://ftp.squeak.org/4.1/unix-linux/Squeak-4.0.3.2202-src.tar.gz to
> > build the VM from source.
> > Ignore the darwin file.
> >
> > 2. The most current Unix VM's are 4.0.  This still surprises me a bit,
> > since I thought closures needed VM support and they are advertised as a
> > 4.1 feature.  Maybe the necessary VM changes were already in place at
> > 4.0.
>
> Ross, I don't know how to reduce the confusion, but I do want to explain
> that the version levels of the VM are not, and should not be, the same
> as those for the image. We made version labels for recent VMs that start
> with "4" to give folks the idea that they more or less line up with the
> Squeak 4.x images (and Pharo 1.x images also btw), but maybe that is just
> leading to further confusion(?).

>
> The ideal situation is that any version of the VM can run any version of
> the image, and any image can run on any VM. Of course we cannot reach
> the ideal, but there is still a good deal of independence between the
> VMs and the images. This is a Good Thing.
>
> >
> > 3. Ignore the darwin file.  Should it be cleaned out/relocated, e.g., to
> > OS-X?
> >
>
> Maybe it should be in a "unix" folder instead of "unix-linux", but
> there are so many people using Linux these days that some of them
> might be confused if they had to look for their VM in a "unix" folder.