[squeak-dev] Replacing Transcript>>#show: by Keith' logging considered harmful

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[squeak-dev] Replacing Transcript>>#show: by Keith' logging considered harmful

Klaus D. Witzel
Keith,

I understand your response but would like to make clear some of the  
obvious consequences. Let's say that the Kitchen Sinkers Guild[tm]  
registers interest in your logging and attempts to replace  
Transcript>>#show: by your work.

They first start with (Smalltalk at: #Transcript put: ProtoObject  
basicNew) because they always wanted to try out what happens then. After  
the huge outcry in the community they then know that they got all possible  
attention and change that to (Smalltalk at: #Transcript put: KeithLogging  
basicNew) initialize. Of course they implement the old Transcript protocol  
in class KeithLogging as convenience methods. So things get released :)

Then after a while, people complain that every time they do world ->  
windows -> find a transcript, that KeithLogging no longer works :( This  
report creates a flood of reponses from people asking to protect world  
menu from unauthorized changes and Seldom On Board members have to step in  
and assign to a team the responsibility for reorganizing world menu  
access. The new team proposes something based on Spoon's imprinting  
mechanism but un-fortunately have to postpone implementation because of  
lack of time of some of their members :(

But in one of their messages, the world menu access team forgot to scrub  
the DS acronym and another guy chims in and (unwillingly, as usual) starts  
a debate on refactoring world menu access with DeltaStream recording,  
because then his streams can be distributed to other forks as well. He's  
not sure if 80% of the needs are covered but suggests to give it a try  
anyways. This guy talks soo often about itches and scratches that some  
lurkers begin to reveal their identity in squeak-dev and begin with  
voicing their concerns about the Scratch user interface, and that  
Smalltalk is probably doomed if nothing will ever be done against the  
wrong colors and unchangable buttons in Scratch.

This all creates such deluge of messages in squeak-dev that Seldom On  
Board members get really concerned and make a new announcement: that the  
community server has been, already and successfully, moved over to an  
iPhone, and that Squeak community is the first online community running  
all their community services on a single iPhone.

When asked what that would be good for (except the fame and fun of it) the  
Seldom On Board members suddenly arrange for another unplanned meeting and  
write up a manifesto which declares that now the rest of the world can get  
an iPhone contract *together* with Squeak community membership, and that  
that is the obvious way for inventing the future.

Meanwhile the world menu access team has hacked up some methods but due to  
incompatability with the new iPhone community server (or was it the iPhone  
shop policy) the project is abandoned :(

After a long period during which the world -> windows -> find a transcript  
problem got no attention at all, someone contributes a method which asks  
the user what s/he really wants: a Transcript or the KeithLogging  
instance. Without any further debate this gets released.

-------

Keith, I hope that in the above you can easily see that your proposal is  
infeasible. Sorry for no better news.

/Klaus


--
"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it".  
Albert Einstein


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Re: [squeak-dev] Replacing Transcript>>#show: by Keith' logging considered harmful

Herbert König
Hi Klaus,

....interesting story snipped. liked it.

KDW> Keith, I hope that in the above you can easily see that your proposal is
KDW> infeasible. Sorry for no better news.

addressing this to Keith sounds as if he is proposing something of his
own devising instead of implementing something that has been discussed
and approved.


Cheers,

Herbert                            mailto:[hidden email]


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[squeak-dev] Re: Replacing Transcript>>#show: by Keith' logging considered harmful

Klaus D. Witzel
On Sat, 04 Jul 2009 17:33:37 +0200, Herbert König wrote:

> Hi Klaus,
>
> ....interesting story snipped. liked it.

Thx.

> KDW> Keith, I hope that in the above you can easily see that your  
> proposal is
> KDW> infeasible. Sorry for no better news.
>
> addressing this to Keith sounds as if he is proposing something of his
> own devising instead of implementing something that has been discussed
> and approved.

You can stop this, Herbert. It's a waste of time. I'm immune, like so many  
others here.

/Klaus

> Cheers,
>
> Herbert                            mailto:[hidden email]
>


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Re: [squeak-dev] Replacing Transcript>>#show: by Keith' logging considered harmful

keith1y
In reply to this post by Klaus D. Witzel
Klaus D. Witzel wrote:

Sorry I didnt understand a word of what you wrote, you looked to be
describing chaos chaotically.

I would expect our processes to be covered by testing and feedback
procedures. I also would hope that people would apply their brains and
skills.

LevelPlayingField is a concrete counter example to your assertion that
it wouldn't work.

Keith


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[squeak-dev] Re: Replacing Transcript>>#show: by Keith' logging considered harmful

Klaus D. Witzel
On Sat, 04 Jul 2009 17:59:38 +0200, Keith Hodges wrote:

> Klaus D. Witzel wrote:
>
> Sorry I didnt understand a word of what you wrote, you looked to be
> describing chaos chaotically.

:) describing chaos chaotically, a nice compliment (and yes, it was meant  
so :)

> I would expect our processes to be covered by testing and feedback
> procedures. I also would hope that people would apply their brains and
> skills.

Of course, so would I (expect then apply). But expectation sometimes  
doesn't work. So I tried putting a bit of humour (sarcasm perhaps?) into  
the story.

> LevelPlayingField is a concrete counter example to your assertion that
> it wouldn't work.

Right. And that's the message.

/Klaus

> Keith


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Re: [squeak-dev] Replacing Transcript>>#show: by Keith' logging considered harmful

Douglas Brebner
In reply to this post by keith1y
Keith Hodges wrote:
> I would expect our processes to be covered by testing and feedback
> procedures. I also would hope that people would apply their brains and
> skills.
>
>  
I believe that both your setup and Andreas proposal can work together.

Andreas proposed a shared repository for developers to work in.
You, I believe, have produced a continuous integration system and a
build tool (and more).

These are somewhat orthogonal to each other.
The former has the role similar to a master git or mercurial repository.
The latter have the role of Buildbot, Team Foundation Build, Make and Rake.



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Re: [squeak-dev] Replacing Transcript>>#show: by Keith' logging considered harmful

Göran Krampe
In reply to this post by Klaus D. Witzel
Hi all!

Klaus D. Witzel wrote:
> But in one of their messages, the world menu access team forgot to scrub
> the DS acronym and another guy chims in and (unwillingly, as usual)
> starts a debate on refactoring world menu access with DeltaStream
> recording, because then his streams can be distributed to other forks as
> well. He's not sure if 80% of the needs are covered but suggests to give
> it a try anyways. This guy talks soo often about itches and scratches
> that some lurkers begin to reveal their identity in squeak-dev and begin

I appreciate the humour here, no doubt about that. :) But I must defend
myself a little bit, presuming I am the "guy" above.

- I sometimes start debates deliberately, and sometimes not.
"unwillingly, as usual"... not sure what it might imply :)

- I am not at all suggesting the use of DS at this time. It is not ready
to dance. But I gladly want people to help out with it!

- Yes, I post quite often. Sorry if it annoys anyone. BUT... I also
actually produce code. ;)

regards, Göran

PS. On vacation but hey, this cabin has free wifi...


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Re: [squeak-dev] Replacing Transcript>>#show: by Keith' logging considered harmful

Edgar J. De Cleene
In reply to this post by Klaus D. Witzel



On 7/4/09 11:41 AM, "Klaus D. Witzel" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Keith,
>
> I understand your response but would like to make clear some of the
> obvious consequences. Let's say that the Kitchen Sinkers Guild[tm]
> registers interest in your logging and attempts to replace
> Transcript>>#show: by your work.
>
> They first start with (Smalltalk at: #Transcript put: ProtoObject
> basicNew) because they always wanted to try out what happens then. After
> the huge outcry in the community they then know that they got all possible
> attention and change that to (Smalltalk at: #Transcript put: KeithLogging
> basicNew) initialize. Of course they implement the old Transcript protocol
> in class KeithLogging as convenience methods. So things get released :)
>
> Then after a while, people complain that every time they do world ->
> windows -> find a transcript, that KeithLogging no longer works :( This
> report creates a flood of reponses from people asking to protect world
> menu from unauthorized changes and Seldom On Board members have to step in
> and assign to a team the responsibility for reorganizing world menu
> access. The new team proposes something based on Spoon's imprinting
> mechanism but un-fortunately have to postpone implementation because of
> lack of time of some of their members :(
>
> But in one of their messages, the world menu access team forgot to scrub
> the DS acronym and another guy chims in and (unwillingly, as usual) starts
> a debate on refactoring world menu access with DeltaStream recording,
> because then his streams can be distributed to other forks as well. He's
> not sure if 80% of the needs are covered but suggests to give it a try
> anyways. This guy talks soo often about itches and scratches that some
> lurkers begin to reveal their identity in squeak-dev and begin with
> voicing their concerns about the Scratch user interface, and that
> Smalltalk is probably doomed if nothing will ever be done against the
> wrong colors and unchangable buttons in Scratch.
>
> This all creates such deluge of messages in squeak-dev that Seldom On
> Board members get really concerned and make a new announcement: that the
> community server has been, already and successfully, moved over to an
> iPhone, and that Squeak community is the first online community running
> all their community services on a single iPhone.
>
> When asked what that would be good for (except the fame and fun of it) the
> Seldom On Board members suddenly arrange for another unplanned meeting and
> write up a manifesto which declares that now the rest of the world can get
> an iPhone contract *together* with Squeak community membership, and that
> that is the obvious way for inventing the future.
>
> Meanwhile the world menu access team has hacked up some methods but due to
> incompatability with the new iPhone community server (or was it the iPhone
> shop policy) the project is abandoned :(
>
> After a long period during which the world -> windows -> find a transcript
> problem got no attention at all, someone contributes a method which asks
> the user what s/he really wants: a Transcript or the KeithLogging
> instance. Without any further debate this gets released.
>
> -------
>
> Keith, I hope that in the above you can easily see that your proposal is
> infeasible. Sorry for no better news.
>
> /Klaus
>
>
> --
> "If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it".
> Albert Einstein
>

I very enjoy this.
I vote for better mail of the month :=)

Edgar
>