[squeak-dev] [Squeak-dev Images] About the different flavors

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[squeak-dev] [Squeak-dev Images] About the different flavors

Damien Cassou-3
Hi,

I'm responsible for generating each month the squeak-dev images. They
currently exist in 4 versions which are all downloaded a lot:

- based on 3.9 (174 downloads)
- based on 3.9 with web stuffs (158 dl)
- based on 3.10 with beta stuffs (129 dl)
- based on 3.10 with beta  and web stuffs (166 dl)

Since 3.10 is not beta anymore, I would like to know what I have to do
to suit your needs. It seems 3.9 based images are still used a lot. Is
it because 3.10 based images contain beta stuffs or because people
don't believe in 3.10 or something else?

I have set-up this poll to know if I still need to base the dev-images
on top of 3.9 and 3.10.
Base squeak-dev images
http://www.doodle.ch/5u67s53greapfdu6

Also, I would like to know if you consider some packages still beta or
not. Please also answer the following poll:
Squeak-dev beta packages:
http://www.doodle.ch/9y9r6nr2imci8g38

And what about the web stuffs? Do I need to duplicate all images to
have one version with and one without?

This thread is also here to collect your remarks and comments. I would
like to collect opinions so that future images fit most of your needs.

--
Damien Cassou
Peter von der Ahé: «I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good
luck». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu)

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Re: [squeak-dev] [Squeak-dev Images] About the different flavors

Andrey Larionov
As for me (i'm a very newbee for squeak and st), 3.10 looks more heavy
and more slow. Visual decoration and theming is very nice but i don't
know is it real cause of low performance.

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 15:21, Damien Cassou <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm responsible for generating each month the squeak-dev images. They
> currently exist in 4 versions which are all downloaded a lot:
>
> - based on 3.9 (174 downloads)
> - based on 3.9 with web stuffs (158 dl)
> - based on 3.10 with beta stuffs (129 dl)
> - based on 3.10 with beta  and web stuffs (166 dl)
>
> Since 3.10 is not beta anymore, I would like to know what I have to do
> to suit your needs. It seems 3.9 based images are still used a lot. Is
> it because 3.10 based images contain beta stuffs or because people
> don't believe in 3.10 or something else?
>
> I have set-up this poll to know if I still need to base the dev-images
> on top of 3.9 and 3.10.
> Base squeak-dev images
> http://www.doodle.ch/5u67s53greapfdu6
>
> Also, I would like to know if you consider some packages still beta or
> not. Please also answer the following poll:
> Squeak-dev beta packages:
> http://www.doodle.ch/9y9r6nr2imci8g38
>
> And what about the web stuffs? Do I need to duplicate all images to
> have one version with and one without?
>
> This thread is also here to collect your remarks and comments. I would
> like to collect opinions so that future images fit most of your needs.
>
> --
> Damien Cassou
> Peter von der Ahé: «I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good
> luck». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu)
>
>

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Re: [squeak-dev] [Squeak-dev Images] About the different flavors

Damien Cassou-3
On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 11:42 AM, Andrey Larionov <[hidden email]> wrote:
> As for me (i'm a very newbee for squeak and st), 3.10 looks more heavy
> and more slow. Visual decoration and theming is very nice but i don't
> know is it real cause of low performance.

The visual decorations are part of the beta package UI Enhancements.
You can vote in the code poll and say that you do not consider this
package as being cool enough for an installation everywhere.

--
Damien Cassou
Peter von der Ahé: «I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good
luck». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu)

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Re: [squeak-dev] [Squeak-dev Images] About the different flavors

Andrey Larionov
It very cool, i like it and many more cool stuff in 3.10, but all my
browsers, eCompletion and other dev related features which lookups for
classes and messages work a lil bit slower. I'm a newb and can compare
only with Dolphin, which is platform optimized and has a considerably
small basic image and functionality.

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 15:51, Damien Cassou <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 11:42 AM, Andrey Larionov <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> As for me (i'm a very newbee for squeak and st), 3.10 looks more heavy
>> and more slow. Visual decoration and theming is very nice but i don't
>> know is it real cause of low performance.
>
> The visual decorations are part of the beta package UI Enhancements.
> You can vote in the code poll and say that you do not consider this
> package as being cool enough for an installation everywhere.
>
> --
> Damien Cassou
> Peter von der Ahé: «I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good
> luck». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu)
>
>

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Re: [squeak-dev] [Squeak-dev Images] About the different flavors

Stéphane Rollandin
In reply to this post by Damien Cassou-3
Damien Cassou a écrit :
> This thread is also here to collect your remarks and comments. I would
> like to collect opinions so that future images fit most of your needs.
>

hello,

let me submit some of my own packages for admission in your dev images:
Colors, LambdaMessageSend, AMB and maybe LispKit since it is much more
advanced than the Lisp interpreter you currently propose.

all is there:
http://map.squeak.org/accountbyid/5f9bef44-1fbb-4dd6-8f10-a69862ad5674

Stef


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Re: [squeak-dev] [Squeak-dev Images] About the different flavors

Damien Cassou-3
Hi Stéphane,

thank you for your answer. About your packages:

Colors: I think it should be included in Squeak base images. It's a
general enhancement.
LambdaMessageSend and LispKit: they only target specific developers as
with the web images. If you have a wide audience for these packages, I
can help you generate your own distribution based on squeak-dev.
AMB: for this one I have no idea if it could be helpful to most
developers. What do others think? It seems to be small enough for an
easy inclusion.

I currently do not propose any Lisp interpreter in dev-images. What
makes you think this?

Bye

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 12:19 PM, Stéphane Rollandin
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> let me submit some of my own packages for admission in your dev images:
> Colors, LambdaMessageSend, AMB and maybe LispKit since it is much more
> advanced than the Lisp interpreter you currently propose.
>
> all is there:
> http://map.squeak.org/accountbyid/5f9bef44-1fbb-4dd6-8f10-a69862ad5674
>
> Stef
>
>
>




--
Damien Cassou
Peter von der Ahé: «I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good
luck». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu)

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Re: [squeak-dev] [Squeak-dev Images] About the different flavors

Stéphane Rollandin
Damien Cassou a écrit :
> Hi Stéphane,
>
> thank you for your answer. About your packages:
>
> Colors: I think it should be included in Squeak base images. It's a
> general enhancement.

ah, ok. but it has been there for years and was never included

> LambdaMessageSend and LispKit: they only target specific developers as
> with the web images. If you have a wide audience for these packages, I
> can help you generate your own distribution based on squeak-dev.

I proposed LispKit because I saw a reference to the old Lisp package. it
is not included by default, it is present in the non-installed package
list. never mind.

LambdaMessageSend I find quite useful, and it's general purpose; I
believe it could belong to the toolbox of any developer.

the truth is that, while you rightly think about the usefulness of the
packages you provide, I think about the visibility a package gets when
included in your images. it's a bit of a chicken/egg problem: if nobody
is aware of the existence of LambdaMessageSend or Colors, then nobody
will use them and they will seem useless :)


regards,

Stef


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Re: [squeak-dev] [Squeak-dev Images] About the different flavors

Damien Cassou-3
On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 1:49 PM, Stéphane Rollandin
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Damien Cassou a écrit :
>>
>> Hi Stéphane,
>>
>> thank you for your answer. About your packages:
>>
>> Colors: I think it should be included in Squeak base images. It's a
>> general enhancement.
>
> ah, ok. but it has been there for years and was never included

I was not aware of this package. You could for example add a bug
report to mantis to ask for an inclusion.

>> LambdaMessageSend and LispKit: they only target specific developers as
>> with the web images. If you have a wide audience for these packages, I
>> can help you generate your own distribution based on squeak-dev.
>
> I proposed LispKit because I saw a reference to the old Lisp package. it is
> not included by default, it is present in the non-installed package list.
> never mind.


You may want to add your packages in the Universe. The how-to is at
http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/5899


>
> LambdaMessageSend I find quite useful, and it's general purpose; I believe
> it could belong to the toolbox of any developer.


First add it to the universe. I'm creating a list of potential future
included packages. As soon as I get answers from the question I ask in
this thread, I will publish a new poll with a list of such packages to
know which can be included in Squeak-dev. Is that ok?

> the truth is that, while you rightly think about the usefulness of the
> packages you provide, I think about the visibility a package gets when
> included in your images. it's a bit of a chicken/egg problem: if nobody is
> aware of the existence of LambdaMessageSend or Colors, then nobody will use
> them and they will seem useless :)


I'm aware of this problem and I already tried to push the Rio package
this way. I think I failed because I don't see much activity around
Rio. So maybe an inclusion in dev-images is not enough to advert a
package. I don't know.

--
Damien Cassou
Peter von der Ahé: «I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good
luck». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu)

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Re: [squeak-dev] [Squeak-dev Images] About the different flavors

Stéphane Rollandin
Damien Cassou a écrit :
> You may want to add your packages in the Universe. The how-to is at
> http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/5899
...
> First add it to the universe. I'm creating a list of potential future
> included packages. As soon as I get answers from the question I ask in
> this thread, I will publish a new poll with a list of such packages to
> know which can be included in Squeak-dev. Is that ok?

sure, thanks.


Stef


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RE: [squeak-dev] [Squeak-dev Images] About the different flavors

Ramon Leon-5
In reply to this post by Damien Cassou-3

> I'm aware of this problem and I already tried to push the Rio package
> this way. I think I failed because I don't see much activity around
> Rio. So maybe an inclusion in dev-images is not enough to advert a
> package. I don't know.
>
> --
> Damien Cassou

I'd hate to see the dev image become a showroom for packages, I'd rather see
it continue to be loaded with stuff most developers would load anyway.  A
package should probably be fairly popular and useful to even be considered
for inclusion in the dev image because as soon as I have to start taking
things out of it, I'll stop using it and go back to building my own.

Ramon Leon
http://onsmalltalk.com


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Re: [squeak-dev] [Squeak-dev Images] About the different flavors

Damien Cassou-3
On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Ramon Leon <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>> I'm aware of this problem and I already tried to push the Rio package
>> this way. I think I failed because I don't see much activity around
>> Rio. So maybe an inclusion in dev-images is not enough to advert a
>> package. I don't know.
>>
>> --
>> Damien Cassou
>
> I'd hate to see the dev image become a showroom for packages, I'd rather see
> it continue to be loaded with stuff most developers would load anyway.  A
> package should probably be fairly popular and useful to even be considered
> for inclusion in the dev image because as soon as I have to start taking
> things out of it, I'll stop using it and go back to building my own.

This is the conclusion I also arrived at. However, things are not
properly defined: how do you determine the popularity of a package?
what is the threshold?

--
Damien Cassou
Peter von der Ahé: «I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good
luck». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu)

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RE: [squeak-dev] [Squeak-dev Images] About the different flavors

Gary Chambers-4
Or, perhaps more importantly, is it something that most developers would
want in their image.
Tricky question, as always.

Gary.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of
> Damien Cassou
> Sent: 02 July 2008 4:36 PM
> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
> Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] [Squeak-dev Images] About the different
> flavors
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Ramon Leon
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> I'm aware of this problem and I already tried to push the Rio package
> >> this way. I think I failed because I don't see much activity around
> >> Rio. So maybe an inclusion in dev-images is not enough to advert a
> >> package. I don't know.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Damien Cassou
> >
> > I'd hate to see the dev image become a showroom for packages,
> I'd rather see
> > it continue to be loaded with stuff most developers would load
> anyway.  A
> > package should probably be fairly popular and useful to even be
> considered
> > for inclusion in the dev image because as soon as I have to start taking
> > things out of it, I'll stop using it and go back to building my own.
>
> This is the conclusion I also arrived at. However, things are not
> properly defined: how do you determine the popularity of a package?
> what is the threshold?
>
> --
> Damien Cassou
> Peter von der Ahé: «I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good
> luck». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu)
>


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Re: [squeak-dev] [Squeak-dev Images] About the different flavors

Mariano Martinez Peck
What about the times a package has been downloaded?

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 12:47 PM, Gary Chambers <[hidden email]> wrote:
Or, perhaps more importantly, is it something that most developers would
want in their image.
Tricky question, as always.

Gary.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of
> Damien Cassou
> Sent: 02 July 2008 4:36 PM
> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
> Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] [Squeak-dev Images] About the different
> flavors
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Ramon Leon
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> I'm aware of this problem and I already tried to push the Rio package
> >> this way. I think I failed because I don't see much activity around
> >> Rio. So maybe an inclusion in dev-images is not enough to advert a
> >> package. I don't know.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Damien Cassou
> >
> > I'd hate to see the dev image become a showroom for packages,
> I'd rather see
> > it continue to be loaded with stuff most developers would load
> anyway.  A
> > package should probably be fairly popular and useful to even be
> considered
> > for inclusion in the dev image because as soon as I have to start taking
> > things out of it, I'll stop using it and go back to building my own.
>
> This is the conclusion I also arrived at. However, things are not
> properly defined: how do you determine the popularity of a package?
> what is the threshold?
>
> --
> Damien Cassou
> Peter von der Ahé: «I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good
> luck». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu)
>





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RE: [squeak-dev] [Squeak-dev Images] About the different flavors

Gary Chambers-4
Possibly, though not statistically valid, perhaps, in the wider sense (extreme internal activity can skew).
 
Gary.
-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck
Sent: 02 July 2008 5:30 PM
To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] [Squeak-dev Images] About the different flavors

What about the times a package has been downloaded?

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 12:47 PM, Gary Chambers <[hidden email]> wrote:
Or, perhaps more importantly, is it something that most developers would
want in their image.
Tricky question, as always.

Gary.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of
> Damien Cassou
> Sent: 02 July 2008 4:36 PM
> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
> Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] [Squeak-dev Images] About the different
> flavors
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Ramon Leon
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> I'm aware of this problem and I already tried to push the Rio package
> >> this way. I think I failed because I don't see much activity around
> >> Rio. So maybe an inclusion in dev-images is not enough to advert a
> >> package. I don't know.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Damien Cassou
> >
> > I'd hate to see the dev image become a showroom for packages,
> I'd rather see
> > it continue to be loaded with stuff most developers would load
> anyway.  A
> > package should probably be fairly popular and useful to even be
> considered
> > for inclusion in the dev image because as soon as I have to start taking
> > things out of it, I'll stop using it and go back to building my own.
>
> This is the conclusion I also arrived at. However, things are not
> properly defined: how do you determine the popularity of a package?
> what is the threshold?
>
> --
> Damien Cassou
> Peter von der Ahé: «I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good
> luck». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu)
>





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RE: [squeak-dev] [Squeak-dev Images] About the different flavors

Ramon Leon-5
In reply to this post by Gary Chambers-4
>
> Or, perhaps more importantly, is it something that most
> developers would
> want in their image.
> Tricky question, as always.
>
> Gary.

Certainly, and I think Damien has done a fine job to date on the dev image,
it's a huge jumpstart on rebuilding my image.  It is a fine line, but the
squeak-web image for example, crosses it for me.  I'd rather add Seaside to
the dev image than strip out Aida and Pier from the web image because I
don't use them.  The dev image contains developer goodies, I like that; the
web image starts pimping frameworks, no thanks, I'll choose what frameworks
I load into my image.

Ramon Leon
http://onsmalltalk.com


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RE: [squeak-dev] [Squeak-dev Images] About the different flavors

Gary Chambers-4
Fair, of course. Hence the poll..

Gary.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Ramon
> Leon
> Sent: 02 July 2008 6:13 PM
> To: 'The general-purpose Squeak developers list'
> Subject: RE: [squeak-dev] [Squeak-dev Images] About the different
> flavors
>
>
> >
> > Or, perhaps more importantly, is it something that most
> > developers would
> > want in their image.
> > Tricky question, as always.
> >
> > Gary.
>
> Certainly, and I think Damien has done a fine job to date on the
> dev image,
> it's a huge jumpstart on rebuilding my image.  It is a fine line, but the
> squeak-web image for example, crosses it for me.  I'd rather add
> Seaside to
> the dev image than strip out Aida and Pier from the web image because I
> don't use them.  The dev image contains developer goodies, I like
> that; the
> web image starts pimping frameworks, no thanks, I'll choose what
> frameworks
> I load into my image.
>
> Ramon Leon
> http://onsmalltalk.com
>
>

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Re: [squeak-dev] [Squeak-dev Images] About the different flavors

blake-24
In reply to this post by Ramon Leon-5
On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 07:42:55 -0700, Ramon Leon <[hidden email]>  
wrote:

> I'd hate to see the dev image become a showroom for packages, I'd rather  
> see
> it continue to be loaded with stuff most developers would load anyway.  A
> package should probably be fairly popular and useful to even be  
> considered
> for inclusion in the dev image because as soon as I have to start taking
> things out of it, I'll stop using it and go back to building my own.

I agree with Ramon.

I got confused with the 3.10 because of the "beta" designation. (I've been  
very lightly skimming for a few months due to other projects, and last I  
saw, vanilla 3.10 had been released and then recalled, and I wasn't sure  
if it had been re-released.)

Basically, though, I like it because I know if I throw a switch to try  
something out, it will work and be relevant to development, versus wading  
through repositories and not knowing what's going to work, what version  
you need, etc.

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[squeak-dev] Re: [Squeak-dev Images] About the different flavors

Tim M
In reply to this post by Damien Cassou-3
Hi Damien,

> On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Ramon Leon <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>>> I'm aware of this problem and I already tried to push the Rio
>>> package this way. I think I failed because I don't see much activity
>>> around Rio. So maybe an inclusion in dev-images is not enough to
>>> advert a package. I don't know.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Damien Cassou
>> I'd hate to see the dev image become a showroom for packages, I'd
>> rather see it continue to be loaded with stuff most developers would
>> load anyway.  A package should probably be fairly popular and useful
>> to even be considered for inclusion in the dev image because as soon
>> as I have to start taking things out of it, I'll stop using it and go
>> back to building my own.
>>
> This is the conclusion I also arrived at. However, things are not
> properly defined: how do you determine the popularity of a package?
> what is the threshold?

>From a newcomers perspective - your images showcase whats possible from a
developers point of view in Squeak. My early experiences of Squeak put me
off for several years - it was an eyesore that only a mother could love (sorry
to be brutal). As a professional programmer used to other tools like Eclipse,
Visual Studio, Dolphin, Visual Age - the bar is quite high and Squeak struggles
to attract new blood in its default incarnation.

I have always tracked it and been curious but the bar seemed too high to
get started - however having a nice looking default image with a good range
of tools that compare nicely "with the competition" suddenly made it easier
to get started and start using lots of the good stuff available.

It seems like the squeak gurus would always start with a pure image and load
up what they want becuase they know whats available and how to do that -
I still struggle learning all the idioms and where to look so having a rich
starting point is a great help.

Tim




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Re: [squeak-dev] Re: [Squeak-dev Images] About the different flavors

David Zmick
I have always tracked it and been curious but the bar seemed too high to get started - however having a nice looking default image with a good range of tools that compare nicely "with the competition" suddenly made it easier to get started and start using lots of the good stuff available.
I agree with you

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 6:45 PM, Tim M <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Damien,

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Ramon Leon <[hidden email]>
wrote:

I'm aware of this problem and I already tried to push the Rio
package this way. I think I failed because I don't see much activity
around Rio. So maybe an inclusion in dev-images is not enough to
advert a package. I don't know.

--
Damien Cassou
I'd hate to see the dev image become a showroom for packages, I'd
rather see it continue to be loaded with stuff most developers would
load anyway.  A package should probably be fairly popular and useful
to even be considered for inclusion in the dev image because as soon
as I have to start taking things out of it, I'll stop using it and go
back to building my own.

This is the conclusion I also arrived at. However, things are not
properly defined: how do you determine the popularity of a package?
what is the threshold?

From a newcomers perspective - your images showcase whats possible from a
developers point of view in Squeak. My early experiences of Squeak put me off for several years - it was an eyesore that only a mother could love (sorry to be brutal). As a professional programmer used to other tools like Eclipse, Visual Studio, Dolphin, Visual Age - the bar is quite high and Squeak struggles to attract new blood in its default incarnation.

I have always tracked it and been curious but the bar seemed too high to get started - however having a nice looking default image with a good range of tools that compare nicely "with the competition" suddenly made it easier to get started and start using lots of the good stuff available.

It seems like the squeak gurus would always start with a pure image and load up what they want becuase they know whats available and how to do that - I still struggle learning all the idioms and where to look so having a rich starting point is a great help.

Tim







--
David Zmick
/dz0004455\
http://dz0004455.googlepages.com
http://dz0004455.blogspot.com

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[squeak-dev] Re: [Squeak-dev Images] About the different flavors

SergeStinckwich
In reply to this post by Stéphane Rollandin
Stéphane Rollandin a écrit :

> Damien Cassou a écrit :
>> This thread is also here to collect your remarks and comments. I would
>> like to collect opinions so that future images fit most of your needs.
>>
>
> hello,
>
> let me submit some of my own packages for admission in your dev images:
> Colors, LambdaMessageSend, AMB and maybe LispKit since it is much more
> advanced than the Lisp interpreter you currently propose.
>

Stef, i load your Colors package in a 3.10 Squeak image.
Color displayNamedColors does not work.


-- Serge Stinckwich
http://blog.doesnotunderstand.org/


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