[squeak-dev] worst crash yet trying to load stuff from Packages Universe in 3.10.2....

OK, one more try I thought.....

I took a fresh 3.10.2-7179 image, set my preferences, opened up the  
Packages Universe, carefully selected the packages I wanted, being  
extra careful to avoid the ones that I've had problems with already,  
and started the installs......

Things looked like they had finished fine, and so I tried clicking on  
the Packages Universe window again to see what it might say and  
KABOOM!  (this all retyped by hand)

        ***System error handling failed***
        Original error: MessageNotUnderstood: LabelMorph class>>contents:.
                Debugger error: MessageNotUnderstood: LabelMorph class>>contensts::
        [] in Debugger class>>openOn:context:label:contents:fullView: {[:ex |  
self primitiveError: 'Original error: ', title asString, ', Debuge...]}
        BlockContext>>valueWithPossibleArgs:
        [] in MethodContext(ContextPart)>>handleSignal: {[(self tempAt: 2)  
valueWithPossibleArgs: {exception}]}
        blockContext>>ensure:
        MethodContext(ContextPart)>>handleSignal:
        MessageNotUnderstood(Exception)>>signal
        LabelMorph class(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: #contents:
        UIThemeSoftSqueak(UITheme)>>buttonLabelForText:
        UIThemeSoftSqueak>>buttonLabelForText:
        UIThemeSoftSqueak(UITheme)>>buttonLabelFor:
        PluggableButtonMorph>>newLabel
        PluggableButtonMorph>>label:
        [] in Debugger>>buttonRowForPreDebugWindow: {[:quad | aButton :=  
PluggableButtonMorph on: aDebugWindow getState:...]}
        OrderedCollection>>do:
        Debugger>>buttonRowForPreDebugWindow:
        Debugger>>buildMorphicNotifierLabelled:message:
        Debugger>>openNotifierContents:label:
        [] in Debugger class>>openOn:context:label:contents:fullView:  
{[debugger := self new process: process controller: controller co...]}
        BlockContext>>on:do:
        [] in Debugger class>>openOn:context:label:contents:fullView:  
{[[debugger := self new process: process controller: controller co...]}
        ---------------------------
        Type CR to enter an emergency evaluator.
        Type any other character to restart.

Sadly it doesn't look like there's even any obvious hint as to what  
package might have caused the problem.

I'm beginning to think this is a hopeless cause.  Clearly not even a  
majority of packages in the currently published universe for 3.10.2  
have ever actually been tested.

--
                                        Greg A. Woods; Planix, Inc.
                                        <[hidden email]>

After restarting the VM (I hit CR, then typed "exit<CR>" to the  
evaluator) things seemed to start working again so I've copied the  
text out of the Universe window's left-hand pane to show what things  
I've installed (and so far as I can see everything is now marked as  
"(installed)").

As I said, things _seemed_ to start working again.  Most things  
actually don't work -- I can't open any kind of browser, for example  
-- I just get another very similar crash.

Sigh.

If anyone can see anything out of the "(installed)" packages that I  
shouldn't have installed for any reason, please let me know and I'll  
try again without whatever and see what happens.



Code Browsing
        AutomaticMethodCategorizer version 0.24
        AutomaticMethodCategorizer version 0.25
        AutomaticMethodCategorizerOB version 0.1
        AutomaticMethodCategorizerOB version 0.2
        AutomaticMethodCategorizerServices version 0.2
        DependencyBrowser version 0.1
        OB-Enhancements version 0.61
        OB-Enhancements version 0.101
        OB-Enhancements version 0.115
        OB-Enhancements version 0.138
        OB-Enhancements version 0.145
        OB-Enhancements version 0.171
        OB-Enhancements version 0.174
        OB-Enhancements version 0.176
        OB-Enhancements version 0.191
        OB-Enhancements version 0.203
        OB-Enhancements version 0.219
        OB-Enhancements version 0.220
        OB-Enhancements version 0.221
        OB-Enhancements version 0.247
        OB-Enhancements version 0.260
        (installed) OB-Enhancements version 0.265
        OBProtocolBrowser version 0.16
        OBProtocolBrowser version 0.17
        OBProtocolBrowser version 0.18
        OBProtocolBrowser version 0.19
        OmniBrowser version 0.323
        OmniBrowser version 0.335
        OmniBrowser version 0.337
        OmniBrowser version 0.341
        OmniBrowser version 0.342
        OmniBrowser version 0.347
        OmniBrowser version 0.350
        OmniBrowser version 0.351
        OmniBrowser version 0.357
        OmniBrowser version 0.358
        OmniBrowser version 0.359
        OmniBrowser version 0.371
        OmniBrowser version 0.376
        OmniBrowser version 0.378
        OmniBrowser version 0.380
        OmniBrowser version 0.381
        OmniBrowser version 0.382
        OmniBrowser version 0.387
        OmniBrowser version 0.388
        OmniBrowser version 0.391
        OmniBrowser version 0.392
        OmniBrowser version 0.393
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        OmniBrowser version 0.405
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        OmniBrowser version 0.408
        OmniBrowser version 0.412
        OmniBrowser version 0.412.1
        OmniBrowser version 0.413
        OmniBrowser version 0.416
        OmniBrowser version 0.419
        OmniBrowser version 0.420
        OmniBrowser version 0.426
        (installed) OmniBrowser version 0.432
        OmniBrowser-Full version 0.1
        OmniBrowser-Full version 0.2
        OmniBrowser-Full version 0.3
        OmniBrowser-Full version 0.4
        OmniBrowser-Full version 0.7
        OmniBrowser-Full version 0.8
        OmniBrowser-Full version 0.9
        OmniBrowser-Full version 0.10
        OmniBrowser-Full version 0.14
        OmniBrowser-Full version 0.18
        OmniBrowser-Full version 0.19
        OmniBrowser-Full version 0.20
        OmniBrowser-Full version 0.24
        OmniBrowser-Full version 0.25
        OmniBrowser-Full version 0.26
        (installed) OmniBrowser-Full version 0.27
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.2
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.3
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.4
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.5
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.6
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.8
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.9
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.10
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.13
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.14
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.18
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.18.2
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.20
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.21
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.22
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.23
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.24
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.27
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.28
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.33
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.34
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.38
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.39
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.40
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.43
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.45
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.46
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.47
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.48
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.49
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.50
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.51
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.52
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.52.1
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.58
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.58.1
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.59
        OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.62
        (installed) OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.63
        OmniBrowser-SUnitIntegration version 0.1
        OmniBrowser-SUnitIntegration version 0.2
        OmniBrowser-SUnitIntegration version 0.4
        OmniBrowser-SUnitIntegration version 0.5
        OmniBrowser-SUnitIntegration version 0.8
        OmniBrowser-SUnitIntegration version 0.9
        OmniBrowser-SUnitIntegration version 0.9.1
        OmniBrowser-SUnitIntegration version 1 obsolete
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.166
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.182
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.183
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.186
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.188
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.192
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.194
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.195
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.199
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.201
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.202
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.205
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.208
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.211
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.222
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.222.2
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.239
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.259
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.261
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.265
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.268
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.271
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.274
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.282
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.303
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.306
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.307
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.310
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.312
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.318
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.320
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.323
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.323.1
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.325
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.327
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.335
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.337
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.345
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.346
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.347
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.356
        OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.369
        (installed) OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.377
        OmniBrowser-TraitsIntegration version 0.1
        OmniBrowser-TraitsIntegration version 0.28
        OmniBrowser-TraitsIntegration version 0.28.1
        OmniBrowser-TraitsIntegration version 0.32
        OmniBrowser-TraitsIntegration version 0.33
        OmniBrowser-TraitsIntegration version 0.34
        OmniBrowser-TraitsIntegration version 1 obsolete
        Shout version 3.15-tween.65
        Shout version 3.15-tween.69
        Shout version 3.15-tween.70
        Shout version 3.15-tween.71
        Shout version 3.15-tween.72
        ShoutMonticello version 1-tween.2
        ShoutOmniBrowser version tween.3
        ShoutOmniBrowser version tween.4
        ShoutOmniBrowser version tween.4.1
        ShoutOmniBrowser version tween.5
        ShoutOmniBrowser version tween.6
        TraitsOmniBrowser version 0.39
        VersionsBrowser version 0.3.1
        VersionsBrowser version 1.0
        Whisker Browser version 1.0
        eCompletion version 0.83
        eCompletion version 0.83.1
        eCompletion version 0.87
        eCompletion version 0.88
        eCompletion version 0.89
        eCompletion version 0.90
        eCompletion version 0.91
        eCompletion version 0.92
        eCompletion version 0.93
        eCompletion-Traits version 0.1
        eCompletionOmniBrowser version 0.2
        eCompletionOmniBrowser version 0.4
        eCompletionOmniBrowser version 0.5
Constraints
        Cassowary version 0.60
        (installed) Connectors version 2.3-187
Data Structures
        (installed) Array2D version 1
        (installed) BitArray version 1.0
        (installed) FixedDecimal version 13
        Iterator version 1.0
        KGraph version 0.0
        PropertyList version 1.1
        PropertyList version 5
Development
        DebugReport version 1.1
        DebugReport version 2.5
        DependencyWalker version 0.1
        DictionaryBrowser version 0.2
        DynamicProtocols version 0.44
        DynamicProtocols version 0.45
        DynamicProtocols version 0.47
        DynamicProtocols version 0.48
        DynamicProtocols version 0.49
        DynamicProtocols version 0.50
        DynamicProtocols version 0.53
        DynamicProtocols version 0.56
        DynamicProtocols version 0.58
        DynamicProtocols version 0.59
        DynamicProtocols version 0.60
        DynamicProtocols version 0.67
        LogEngine version 2
        Logging version 3.10
        Logging version 3.11
        Logging version 3.27
        Magritte-Model version 1.0.17.331
        Magritte-Mse version 1.0.17.2
        Magritte-Tests version 1.0.17.148
        Mse version 1.0.17.10
        NewCompiler version 157
        NewCompiler version 158
        NewCompiler version 162
        NewCompiler version 164
        NewCompiler version 172
        NewCompiler version 182
        NewCompiler version 184
        NewCompiler version 185
        NewCompiler version 187
        NewCompiler version 195
        NewCompiler version 202
        NewCompiler version 204
        NewCompiler version 215
        NewCompiler version 228
        NewCompiler version 231
        NewCompiler version 241
        NewCompiler version 247
        NewCompiler version 248
        NewCompiler version 251
        NewCompiler version 268
        NewCompiler version 270
        NewCompiler version 272
        NewCompiler version 277
        NewCompiler version 278
        NewCompiler version 280
        NewCompiler version 281
        NewParser version 2
        NewParser version 3
        NewParser version 3.1
        NewParser version 4
        NewParser version 5
        ObjectFinder version 0.1
        ObjectFinder version 0.2
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.1
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.5
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.7
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.10
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.16
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.19
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.20
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.22
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.23
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.24
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.26
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.27
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.30
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.33
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.33new
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.38
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.41
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.42
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.44
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.48
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.53
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.65
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.69
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.78
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.79
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.84
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.85
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.89
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.94
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.98
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 1.0
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 101
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 101.1
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 103
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 107
        OmniBrowser-Refactory version 108
        (installed) OmniBrowser-Refactory version 113
        OmniBrowser-Regex version 0.8
        OmniBrowser-Regex version 0.8.1
        OmniBrowser-Regex version 0.8.2
        OmniBrowser-Regex version 0.9
        (installed) OmniBrowser-Regex version 0.9.1
        OmniBrowser-Tools version 0.7
        OmniBrowser-Tools version 0.11
        OmniBrowser-Tools version 0.12
        OmniBrowser-Tools version 0.13
        OmniBrowser-Tools version 0.20
        OmniBrowser-Tools version 0.30
        OmniBrowser-Tools version 0.31
        OmniBrowser-Tools version 0.32
        OmniBrowser-Tools version 0.33
        OmniBrowser-Tools version 0.34
        OmniBrowser-Tools version 0.35
        Pier-Model version 1.0.17.238
        Pier-OmniBrowser version 1.0.17.34
        Pier-PersistencyManager version 1.0.16/16
        Pier-Squeak-Persistency version 1.0.17.6
        Pier-Tests version 1.0.17.104
        Refactoring Core version 5
        (installed) Refactoring Core version 11
        Refactoring Engine version 26
        Refactoring Engine version 31
        Refactoring Engine version 32
        Refactoring Engine version 33
        Refactoring Engine version 35
        Refactoring Engine version 36
        Refactoring Engine version 37
        Refactoring Engine version 39
        Refactoring Engine version 46
        Refactoring Engine version 47
        Refactoring Engine version 48
        Refactoring Engine version 50
        Refactoring Engine version 51
        Refactoring Tests version 0
        Refactoring Tests version 1
        Refactoring Tests version 3
        RoelTyper version 0.44
        RoelTyper version 0.58
        RoelTyper version 0.59
        RoelTyper version 0.60
        SUnit version 0.33
        SUnit-improved version 4.0
        SUnit-improved version 4.0.105
        SUnit-improved version 4.0.108
        SUnit-improved version 4.0.113
        SUnit-improved version 4.0.115
        SUnit-improved version 4.0.116
        SUnit-improved version 4.0.117
        (installed) SUnit-improved version 4.0.118
        SUnitGUI-improved version 4.0
        SUnitGUI-improved version 4.0.48
        (installed) SUnitGUI-improved version 4.0.50
        Scripting Workspace version 1.22-apha
        SendTreeExplorer version 1alpha
        SharedStreams version 1.1
        SimpleLog version 1.13
        SmaCC version 5
        SmaCC version 17
        SmaCC version 18
        SmaCC runtime version 13
        Sport version 2.30
        (installed) Sport version 2.31
        Squeak dev packages version 0.1
        Squeak dev packages version 0.2
        Squeak dev packages version 0.3
        Squeak dev packages version 0.4
        Squeak dev packages version 0.5
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        Squeak dev packages version 0.7
        Squeak dev packages version 0.8
        Squeak dev packages version 0.9
        Squeak dev packages version 0.10
        Squeak dev packages version 0.11
        Squeak dev packages version 0.12
        Squeak dev packages version 0.13
        Squeak dev packages version 0.14
        Squeak dev packages version 0.15
        Squeak dev packages version 0.16
        Squeak dev packages version 0.17
        Squeak dev packages version 0.18
        Squeak dev packages version 0.19
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        Squeak dev packages version 0.21
        Squeak dev packages version 0.22
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        Squeak dev packages version 0.24
        Squeak dev packages version 0.25
        Squeak dev packages version 0.26
        Squeak dev packages version 0.27
        Squeak dev packages beta version 0.15
        Squeak dev packages beta version 0.16
        Squeak dev packages beta version 0.17
        Squeak dev packages beta version 0.18
        Squeak dev packages beta version 0.19
        Squeak dev packages beta version 0.20
        Squeak dev packages beta version 0.21
        Squeak dev packages beta version 0.22
        Squeak dev packages beta version 0.24
        Squeak dev packages beta version 0.25
        Squeak dev packages beta version 0.26
        Squeak dev packages beta version 0.27
        Squeak dev packages beta version 0.28
        Squeak dev packages beta version 0.29
        Squeak dev packages beta version 0.30
        Squeak dev packages beta version 0.31
        Squeak dev packages beta version 0.32
        Tamaris version 0.50
        Tamaris version 0.51
        Tamaris version 0.53
        Tamaris version 0.61
        TestBrowser version 120
        Typeinference version 1
Distributions
        Pharo packages version 0.1
        Pharo packages version 0.2
        Pharo packages version 0.3
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Fonts
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        FreeType Plus version 0.5
        FreeType Plus-Base version 0
        FreeType Plus-plugins version 0.13
        FreeType Plus-plugins version 0.14
        FreeType Plus-plugins version 0.15
        FreeType Plus-plugins installer version 0.16
        FreeType Plus-plugins source version 1
        FreeType Plus-plugins source version 2
        FreeType Plus-plugins source version 3
        Nice fonts version 0.3
        Nice fonts version 0.4
        Nice fonts version 0.5
        Nice fonts version 0.6
        X11Fonts version 1-2
Games
        (installed) BreakOut version 5
        Electricity Game version 1.18
        (installed) Electricity Game version 1.19
        Games version 22-4-2004
        (installed) Games version 2005-10-14
        GamesTests version 2003-5-2
        LifeMorph version 1.0
        Quotes version 21
        Quotes version 22
        SqueakPipes version 20040426
        ZigZag version 0.1
Graphics
        Balloon3D version 0.18
        Balloon3D version 0.18.1
        Balloon3D version 0.18.2
        Balloon3D-Constants version 0.4
        Balloon3D-Import version 0.3
        Balloon3D-Import version 0.3.1
        Balloon3D-Import version 0.3.2
        Balloon3D-Kernel version 0.6
        Balloon3D-Math version 0.2
        Balloon3D-Morphic version 0.1
        Balloon3D-Morphic version 0.3
        Balloon3D-Morphic version 0.3.1
        Balloon3D-Packaging version 0.6
        Balloon3D-Plugins version 0.2
        Balloon3D-Plugins version 0.2.1
        Balloon3D-Plugins version 0.2.2
        Balloon3D-Pooh version 0.3
        Balloon3D-Pooh version 0.3.1
        Balloon3D-Tutorial version 0.4
        Balloon3D-Tutorial version 0.4.1
        Balloon3D-VRML version 0.2
        Balloon3D-VRML version 0.2.1
        Balloon3D-VRML version 0.2.2
        Balloon3D-Wonderland version 0.4
        Balloon3D-WonderlandConstants version 0.2
        GraphViz version 41
        GraphViz version 41r2
        Graphics-External version 0.1
        Graphics-Tools version 0.2
        Smagick version 0.1
        Smagick version 0.2
        Smagick version 0.3
        Smagick version 0.4
        Smagick version 0.5
Group Development
        Installer version 1.0.181
        Installer version 4.1
        Installer version 4.2
        Installer version 4.3.271
        Monticello15 version 1.5+
        Monticello16 version 1.6+
        Monticello2 version 0.1
        Monticello2 version 0.2
        Monticello2-Core version 0.182
        Monticello2-Core version 0.191
        Monticello2-Core version 0.192
        (installed) Monticello2-Core version 0.194
        Monticello2-OmniBrowser version 0.6
        Monticello2-OmniBrowser version 0.8
        Monticello2-OmniBrowser version 0.9
        (installed) Monticello2-OmniBrowser version 0.17
        Monticello2-Squeak version 0.6
        Monticello2-Squeak version 0.37
        Monticello2-Squeak version 0.55
        Monticello2-Squeak version 0.58
        (installed) Monticello2-Squeak version 0.62
        MonticelloConfigurations version 1.0.42
        MonticelloConfigurations version 1.0.43
        MonticelloConfigurations version 1.0.44
        MonticelloConfigurations-UniversesFix version un.33.fix.1
        MonticelloConfigurations-UniversesFix version un.33.fix.2
        MonticelloConfigurations-UniversesFix version un.33.fix.3
        OB-Monticello version 0.30
        Packages-Library version 0
        (installed) SARBuilder version 8
        Sake version 67
        Sake version 78
        Sake version 79
        (installed) Sake version 82
        Sake-Bob version 7
        Sake-Packages version 3
        (installed) Sake-Packages version 8
        Sake-Scheduler version
        SqCVS version 0.51
        SqueakSource version 1.0.6
        Universes version 13
        Universes version 14
        Universes version 15
        Universes version 16
        Universes version 19
        Universes version 23
        Universes version 24
        Universes version 25
        Universes version 28
        Universes version 30
        Universes version 31
        Universes version 32
        Universes version 33
        Universes version 34
        Universes version 35
        Universes version 36
        Universes version 36.1
        Universes version 37
        Universes version 38
        Universes version 39
        Universes version 40
        Universes version 41
        Universes version 42
        Universes version 45
        Universes version 47
        Universes version 49
        (installed) Universes version 50
        Universes OmniBrowser version 0.11
        Universes OmniBrowser version 0.15
        Universes OmniBrowser version 0.16
        Universes OmniBrowser version 0.19
        Universes OmniBrowser version 0.24
        Universes OmniBrowser version 0.26
        Universes OmniBrowser version 0.27
        Universes OmniBrowser version 0.32
        Universes OmniBrowser version 0.34
        Universes OmniBrowser version 0.35
        Universes OmniBrowser version 0.36
        Universes OmniBrowser version 0.37
        (installed) Universes OmniBrowser version 0.38
IDE
        Algernon version 1.0.1
        Algernon version 1.1
        Algernon version 1.2
        KeyBinder version 2004.8.14
        KeyBinder version 2004.8.14.18
        Keymapping version 4.1
        Launcher version 1.0.62
        OmniBrowser-Algernon version 0.5
        SVI version 0.115
        ScriptManager version 0.6
        Scripter version 0.5.5
        Techo-Shout version 4
Kernel
        KernelExt-kph version 3.10.4
        KernelExt-kph version 3.10.10
        KernelExt-kph version 3.10.12
        KernelExt-kph version 3.10.20
        KernelExt-kph version 3.10.24
        KernelExt-kph version 3.10.26
        KernelExt-kph version 3.10.29
        KernelExt-kph version 3.10.53
        KernelExt-kph version 3.10.54+
        SystemEditor version 1
        SystemEditor version 1+
        SystemEditor-Core version 1.155
        SystemEditor-Core version 1.156
        SystemEditor-Squeak version 1.149
        SystemEditor-Squeak version 1.165
Languages and Extensions
        DynamicBindings version 1.1
        DynamicBindings version 1.21
        DynamicBindings version 2.7
        DynamicProtocols version 0.39
        Lisp version 1
        Logic expressions version 1.0-alpha
        Logic expressions version 2.1
Mathematics
        DHB Numerical Analysis version 1.0
        Numerics version 1
        Numerics version 2
        (installed) Numerics version 4
        Units version 1
        Units version 3
        (installed) Units version 4
Model Extension
        AST version 0.103
        AST version 0.104
        AST version 0.113
        AST version 136
        AST version 137
        AST version 139
        AST version 140
        AST version 141
        AST version 142
        AST version 144
        AST version 145
        AST version 146
        AST version 147
        AST version 149
        AST version 150
        AST version 151
        AST version 153
        AST version 154
        AST version 155
        AST version 157
        AST version 158
        (installed) AST version 160
        AXAnnouncements version 1.0.31
        Announcements version 0.5
        Announcements version 0.7
        ClassSelectorSets version 1
        File-Base version 4
        File-Base version 6
        File-Base version 8
        File-Kernel version 4
        File-Kernel version 6
        File-Kernel version 7
        File-Kernel version 8
        File-Test version 4
        File-Test version 5
        FileMan version 0.44
        FileMan version 0.85
        LambdaMessageSend version 16
        Nile version 0.8.0
        Nile version 0.8.1
        Nile version 0.8.2
        Nile version 0.9.0
        Nile version 0.9.5
        Nile version 1.0.121
        Nile version 1.0.122
        Nile-Base version 1.0.57
        Nile-Base version 1.0.58
        Nile-Clients version 1.0.92
        Nile-Clients version 1.0.93
        Nile-Tests version 1.0.63
        Nile-Tests version 1.0.64
        Nile-Tests version 1.0.65
        Null version 0.7
        Null version 0.8
        Null version 0.13
        (installed) Null version 0.14
        Rio version 0.34
        Rio version 0.34.14
        Rio version 0.34.18
        Rio version 0.34.21
        Rio version 0.34.22
        Rio version 0.34.29
        Rio version 0.81.35
        Rio version 4
        Rio-Kernel version 0.36
        Rio-Kernel version 0.63
        Rio-Kernel version 0.67
        Rio-Kernel version 0.70
        Rio-Kernel version 0.71
        Rio-Kernel version 0.78
        Rio-Kernel version 0.81
        SystemChangeNotifier improvements version 1
        Toothpick version 0.1
        VBRegex version 1.8
        (installed) VBRegex version 1.9
Morphs
        EventInterceptorMorph version 1alpha
        FractalMorph version 1.2
        Magritte-Morph version 1.0.17.42
        MemoryUsage version 0.3
        MultiColumn List Morph version 6
        PieChartMorph version 0.2
        Plot Morph version 3
        Screen Shot Morph version 0.0.0.1
        Screen Shot Morph version 0.0.0.2
        WanderingLetters version 22Feb-2.1
        WarpSketchMorph version 1.12
Network
        Celeste version 1.25
        Celeste version 2.21
        DNS Client version 1.0
        DNS Client version 1.1
        ExternalWebBrowser version 8
        ExternalWebBrowser version 9
        Folktale version 0.51
        HTML-Parser version 1.5
        HTML-Parser version 1.5-2
        HTTPClient version 19
        IRCBot version 2.1
        IRCe version 10.7.6-2
        KomHttpServer version 6.2
        KomHttpServer version 7.0.4
        KomHttpServer version 7.0.30
        KomServices version 1.0
        KomServices version 1.1.2
        KomServices version 1.12
        PWS version 0.2gt1
        REPLServer version 16
        RFB-VNC version 1.0
        RemoteFrameBuffer version 34
        SoapCore version 1.0b
        Swazoo version 2.0
        Swazoo version 2.1
        Swazoo-HTTP version 7
        Telnet version 301
Office
        Diagram Browser version 2004-7-25
        MiniToDo version 1.0
        MiniToDo version 1.1
        OpenOffice Importer version 16
        OpenOffice Importer version 17
        X11Fonts version 1
Persistence
        BTree version 28
        BTree version 49
        GOODS version 71
        GOODS version 80
        Glorp version 0.4.129
        Glorp version 0.4.169
        Java Serialization version 1.61
        Java Serialization version 1.71
        Magma 1.0 client version r40
        Magma 1.0 server version r40
        Magma 1.0 server version r41
        Magma 1.41 version r41.1
        Magma Client version 0.9beta
        Magma Seaside version 0.9beta
        Magma Seaside-alpha version 0.9.83
        Magma Seaside-alpha version 0.9.84
        Magma Seaside-alpha version 1.0.86
        Magma Server version 0.9beta
        Magma seasideHelper version 2.8.r40
        Magma seasideHelper version 2.8.r40.32
        Magma sunit version 1.0.6
        Magma sunit version 1.0.8
        MinneStore version 2.8
        Mysql Driver version 1.13
        NetStrings version 1.0
        ODBC version 1
        ODBC version 2
        PostgreSQL Client version 0.9.2
        (installed) PostgreSQL Client version 1.0
        ROE version 42
        SIXX version 0.1h
        SIXX version 0.3
        SIXX version 0.55
        SIXX version 0.74
        SIXX version 0.82
        SIXX version 0.83
        (installed) SIXX version 0.95
        SPL PDF Library version 1.0-21a
        SandstoneDb version 113
        SqueakDBX version 0.7
        SqueakDBX version 0.7.1
        (installed) YAXO version 9
Simulation
        Manzana version 2003-1-21
        (installed) SmallDEVS version 2006-12-6
Squeak Distributions
        Squeak-dev image version 0.96
        Squeak-dev image version 0.97
        Squeak-dev image version 0.98
        Squeak-dev image version 0.105
        Squeak-dev image version 0.106
        Squeak-dev image version 0.107
        Squeak-dev image version 0.108
        Squeak-dev image version 0.114
        Squeak-dev image version 0.115
        Squeak-dev image version 0.116
        Squeak-dev image version 0.117
        Squeak-dev image version 0.118
        Squeak-dev image version 0.120
        Squeak-dev image version 0.123
        Squeak-dev image version 0.125
        Squeak-dev image version 0.126
        Squeak-dev image version 0.128
        Squeak-dev image version 0.129
        Squeak-dev image version 0.130
        Squeak-dev image version 0.133
        Squeak-dev image version 0.134
        Squeak-dev image version 0.137
        Squeak-dev image version 0.140
        Squeak-dev image version 0.143
        Squeak-dev image version 0.144
        Squeak-dev image version 0.148
        Squeak-dev image version 0.151
        Squeak-dev image version 0.154
        Squeak-dev image version 0.155
        Squeak-dev image version 0.156
        Squeak-dev image version 0.158
        Squeak-dev image version 0.159
        Squeak-dev image version 0.160
        Squeak-dev image version 0.161
        Squeak-dev image version 0.162
        Squeak-dev image version 0.163
        Squeak-dev image version 0.164
        Squeak-dev image version 0.165
        Squeak-dev image version 0.167
System
        CommandShell version 3.0.5
        CommandShell version 4.2.2
        CommandShell version 4.2.3
        CommandShell version 4.3
        Cryptography Team Package version 1.1
        Exupery version 0.4
        Exupery version 0.10
        Exupery version 0.11
        Exupery version 0.12
        Exupery version 0.12new
        Exupery version 0.13
        Exupery version 0.14
        Exupery Development version 0.12
        Exupery Development version 0.12r2
        Exupery Development version 0.14
        Exupery Development version 0.14.1
        Exupery Development version 0.14.2
        Exupery Development version 0.14.3
        FFI version 3.9
        FFI version 3.9.1
        FFI-Examples version 3.9
        FFI-Tests version 3.9
        Namespaces version 46
        NewCompiler version 117
        OSProcess version V4-3-6
        OSProcess version V4-3-7
        OSProcessIO version 0.1
        OSProcessIO version 0.2
        OSProcessIO version 0.3
        OSProcessPlugin version 4.2.6a
        OSProcessPlugin version 4.2.7a.1
        ProcessSpecific version 1.0.11
        ProcessSpecific version 1.0.15
        SSH version 1.0
        SSL version 1.0
        SqueakElib version 1
        VMMaker version 3.7b5
        VMMaker version 3.8b6
        VMMaker version 3.8b6.1
Tools
        NamespaceTools version 36
        PlusTools version 37.3
        ToolBuilder-Examples version 4
        ToolBuilder-Kernel version 20
        ToolBuilder-Kernel version 26
        ToolBuilder-Kernel version 27
        ToolBuilder-MVC version 12
        ToolBuilder-MVC version 14
        ToolBuilder-Morphic version 22
        ToolBuilder-Morphic version 27
        ToolBuilder-Specs version 1
        ToolBuilder-Tweak version 23
Uncategorized
        Cryptography version 0.3
        FreeType Plus-plugins source version 0
        IRCe version 10.7.6
        Mondrian version 0.33
        Mondrian version 0.40
        Morse Code version 2
        Network-HTML version 4
        OSProcessPlugin version 4.2.6
        ProjectsAsPNG version 1.0
        Refactoring Tests version 2
        SUnitProgress version 0.2
        ScriptManager version 0.4
        ShoutWorkspace version 1-tween.1
        ShoutWorkspace version 1-tween.2
        ShoutWorkspace version 1-tween.3
        ShoutWorkspace version 1-tween.4
        Speech version 9
        Techo-Base version 1
        TimeZoneDatabase version 1.2.5
        VersionNumber version 1.0
        Video and Image Processing version 2.1
User Interface
        (installed) Diff Tools version 0.51
        (installed) Event Enhancements version 0.6
        Genie version r67
        (installed) Geometry Models version 0.3
        Polymorph EventEnhancements version 1.0
        Polymorph EventEnhancements version 1.1
        Polymorph Geometry version 1.0
        Polymorph TaskbarIcons version 1.0
        Polymorph ToolBuilder version 1.0
        Polymorph ToolBuilder version 1.1
        Polymorph Tools Diff version 1.0
        Polymorph Tools Diff version 1.1
        Polymorph Widgets version 1.0
        Polymorph Widgets version 1.1
        ToolBuilder integration for UI Themes version 0.51
        ToolBuilder integration for UI Themes version 0.52
        UI Theme Taskbar Icons version 0.1
        UI Themes and Standard Widgets version 0.5
        UI Themes and Standard Widgets version 0.53
        UI Themes and Standard Widgets version 0.54
        UI Themes and Standard Widgets version 0.55
        UI Themes and Standard Widgets version 0.56
        UI Themes and Standard Widgets version 0.57
        UI Themes and Standard Widgets version 0.58
        UI Themes and Standard Widgets version 0.59
        UI Themes and Standard Widgets version 0.60
        UI Themes and Standard Widgets version 0.70
        (installed) UI Themes and Standard Widgets version 0.80
Web Development
        Aida version 5.4
        Aida version 5.6
        Comet version 2.8.3.28
        Magritte-Seaside version 1.0.17.278
        Pier version current
        Pier-Blog version 1.0.17.90
        Pier-Commands-RemoveChildren version 1.0.14
        Pier-Commands-RemoveChildren version 1.0.14.2
        Pier-Design version 1.0.17.5
        Pier-Documents version 1.0.17.7
        Pier-EditorEnh version 1.0.17.16
        Pier-Google version 1.0.17.5
        Pier-Jetsam-Environment version 1.0.16.5
        Pier-Jetsam-Environment version 1.0.16.7
        Pier-LightBox version 1.0.17.6
        Pier-Magma version 1.38
        Pier-Magma-beta version 1.0.9-alpha.35
        Pier-Math version 1.0.17.6
        Pier-Media version 1.0.17.1
        Pier-Randomizer version 1.0.17.4
        Pier-Seaside version 1.0.17.311
        Pier-Security version 1.0.17.113
        Pier-Setup version 1.0.17.30
        Pier-Shout version 1.0.17.8
        Pier-Sitemap version 1.0.17.20
        Pier-TabbedPagesWidgets version 1.0.14.5
        Pier-TagCloud version 1.0.17.11
        Pier-Titles version 1.0.17.1
        PlotKit version 0.9.1.26
        PlotKit version 0.9.1.27
        RSRSS2 version 2.8.3.11
        Scriptaculous version 2.8.3.242
        Seaside version 2.8.3.572
        Seaside-PlotKit-beta version 0.9.1.26
        Seaside28Jetsam version 2.8.526
        Seaside28Jetsam version 2.8.529
        Seaside28Jetsam version 2.8.536
        Seaside28Jetsam version 2.8.545
        Seaside28Jetsam-Blueprint version 0.7.1
        Seaside28Jetsam-Supersleight version 0.1
        Seaside28Jetsam-Useful-CSS version 0.1
        ShoreComponents version 3.10
        Squeak web packages version 0.1
        Squeak web packages version 0.2
        TinyWiki version 1.0.1
Web Development beta
        Sandcastle version 0
        Sandcastle version 1.0
        Seaside-Adapters-Core version pmm.2.mcz
        Seaside-Adapters-Swazoo version pmm.7.mcz-2
        Seaside-Adapters-Swazoo version 8
        Seaside-Adapters-Swazoo version 9
        Seaside-HTML5-beta version 2.8.411.5
        Seaside-Squeak-Adapters version pmm.3.mcz
        Seaside28Jetsam version 2.8.415
        Seaside28Jetsam version 2.8.425
        SeasideAdaptersCompatibility version pmm.1.mcz
        ShoreComponents-beta version 3.10

--
                                        Greg A. Woods; Planix, Inc.
                                        <[hidden email]>

Somehow I managed to get a change sorter window to open too, and  
here's the list of change sets (there are no changes in "New Changes"):

OBUniverse-Dan Corneanu.38
OB-Regex-lr.9
OB-Enhancements-dr.265
OB-Refactory-lr.113
Monticello2OB-dc.17
OB-Morphic-dr.63
SmallDEVS-Examples-vj.21
SmallDEVS-GUI-ke.51
SmallDEVS-Core-vj.77
SmallDEVS-MyRepository-vj.61
System-Prototypes.7.cs
PlotMorph3-dgd.cs
Number_class-readFrom.st
OB-Standard-dr.377
Refactoring-Core-lr.11
Pinesoft-Tools-Diff-gvc.8
MC2-Squeak-dc.62
SUnitGUI-kph.50
Sake-Packages-kph.8
Universes-dc.50
SIXX-mu.95
XML-Parser-mir.91
Numerics-rdt.29
FixedDecimal-cbc.13
XML-Parser-mir.9
OmniBrowser-dr.432
AST-lr.160
VB-Regex-sd.9
BitArray1
Null-kph.14
PostgresV2-yj.5
NsTileGame-sbw.17
Morphic-Games-asm.1
Games-Sokoban-sbw.9
Sake-Core-kph.82
Pinesoft-Widgets-gvc.324
Array2D-md.1
Pinesoft-EventEnhancements-gvc.3
Monticello2-dc.194
Sport-2.031
NsTileGame-sbw.19
Units-md.4
ConnectorsBasicDistro-nk.12
ConnectorsDemo-nk.5
BroomMorphs-Connectors-nk.2
BroomMorphs-Base-nk.2
ConnectorsGraphLayout-nk.7
ConnectorsTools-nk.21
ConnectorsShapes-nk.29
ConnectorsText-nk.16
Connectors-nk.187
FSM-nk.42
CGPrereqs-nk.8
ConnectorsFor3.8-187.sar
Pinesoft-Geometry-gvc.3
SARBuilder.st
BreakOut-sd.5
SUnit-kph.117
7179AdvanceTo3dot10dot2
7178MorphicCandidatesForGoCleanup-M7076-klc
7177ReleaseTests-M7076-wiz
7176AdvanceTo3dot10dot2beta
New Changes


--
                                        Greg A. Woods; Planix, Inc.
                                        <[hidden email]>

On 14/12/2008, at 21:13, Greg A. Woods; Planix, Inc. wrote:

My 5 cents of peso (less of 1 euro cent) bet is the cause is into  
UITheme or the fancy enhanced look.
Look for  LabelMorph, is not a class of base 3.10, for this class  
responds to contents: should be subclass of StringMorph (maybe)

> Clearly not even a majority of packages in the currently published  
> universe for 3.10.2 have ever actually been tested.

No, and nobody have this duty this days.

Once more the need of a Czar of Packages arise and once more I call  
for nominate one and a politics for packages.

I see Jerome and you take serious on this , so why not nominate  
ourselves as "US Marshalls " and fight outlaws :=)

Edgar

>
> No, and nobody have this duty this days.
>
> Once more the need of a Czar of Packages arise and once more I call
> for nominate one and a politics for packages.
>
With Sake/Packages, everyone is a czar of packages :-)

Keith

>
>
>
>

On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 5:17 AM, Keith Hodges <[hidden email]> wrote:

> With Sake/Packages, everyone is a czar of packages :-)

Saying "everyone is a czar" is like saying "nobody is a czar".

This is not a packaging tool problem, and it is not a problem that can
be solved with packaging tools.  Package Universe could in theory be
used to solve this problem.  (Sake/Packages might be even better - I'm
not knocking it - I'm just saying it is not a tool problem.)  All that
is necessary is to make sure that every combination of things in the
PU is tested.

It is relatively easy to create your own Package Universe.  The
original idea for PU was that each PU would have an owner, and the
owner would make sure that everything in the PU worked together.
However, what has happened in practice is that there are only a few
PUs, one for each version of Squeak, and each PU has a lot of people
who put things in it.  There is no process for making sure that
everything is tested, so some things are tested and some things are
not.

-Ralph

Here are at least two things you are doing wrong.  It looks like you
are trying to load many versions of the same package.  Only lead ONE
version of each package.  Almost always, load the most recent one.  In
my opinion, all the old versions of packages should be deleted from a
package universe.

If you are loading Squeak-dev image, you don't need to load anything
else.  It has all the generally useful and reliable packages that a
developer would want.  You load just one package, and you get several
dozen loaded automatically.
That is the magic of PU.

You might find that you need packages not in "Squeak-dev image", in
which case you should feel free to load them.  Each package in PU is
supposed to list all packages that it depends on, so if you load a
package and don't get its prerequisite, that is bug in the package
definition.

I have found PU to be useful and reliable.  On the other hand, I have
never loaded more than four or five packages at once, counting
"Squeak-dev image" and everything it requires as a single package.
When you realize that most of these packages are independently
developed and are not always tested together, you will realize that
loading 50 packages all at once is a bad idea.

On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 6:28 PM, Greg A. Woods; Planix, Inc.
<[hidden email]> wrote:

Ralph Johnson wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 5:17 AM, Keith Hodges <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  
>> With Sake/Packages, everyone is a czar of packages :-)
>>    
>
> Saying "everyone is a czar" is like saying "nobody is a czar".
>
>  
No it isnt.

If there are packages and "nobody" is has the power to edit the
definitions and the versions that are loaded then it is almost
guaranteed not to work, since no one can fix the problems.

"everyone is a czar" means that it can be a genuinely collaborative
processes, and everyone who cares is a potential tester and fixer. They
are entirely different.

I remember when some thought wiki's would never catch on.

Keith

On 15.12.2008 13:10, Ralph Johnson wrote:

Saying "everyone is a czar" is like saying "nobody is a czar".

This is not a packaging tool problem, and it is not a problem that can
be solved with packaging tools.  Package Universe could in theory be
used to solve this problem.  (Sake/Packages might be even better - I'm
not knocking it - I'm just saying it is not a tool problem.)  All that
is necessary is to make sure that every combination of things in the
PU is tested.

It is relatively easy to create your own Package Universe.  The
original idea for PU was that each PU would have an owner, and the
owner would make sure that everything in the PU worked together.
However, what has happened in practice is that there are only a few
PUs, one for each version of Squeak, and each PU has a lot of people
who put things in it.  There is no process for making sure that
everything is tested, so some things are tested and some things are
not.

-Ralph
  

"Testing can show the presence of bugs, but not their absence.”  (Dijkstra)
I dream of the day when code can be read, understood, and audited.
Testing will then just confirm that we haven't made any serious blunders.
"The more bugs you find during testing, the more bugs there will be in the shipped product. (Trygve)
--Trygve

Keith Hodges escreveu:

Ralph Johnson wrote:
  

On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 5:17 AM, Keith Hodges [hidden email] wrote:

  
    

With Sake/Packages, everyone is a czar of packages :-)
    
      

Saying "everyone is a czar" is like saying "nobody is a czar".

  
    

No it isnt.

If there are packages and "nobody" is has the power to edit the
definitions and the versions that are loaded then it is almost
guaranteed not to work, since no one can fix the problems.

"everyone is a czar" means that it can be a genuinely collaborative
processes, and everyone who cares is a potential tester and fixer. They
are entirely different.

I remember when some thought wiki's would never catch on.

Keith



  

Here I tend to agree with Ralph. Everyone can cooperate, but cooperation must be coordinated in order to avoid confusion. One model I enjoy (despite its many vices) is the one adopted by fedora.org. A guy must enroll to be maintainer of a package and then, if approved, he is in charge of receiving error notifications and possible cooperations (and I notice that maintainers receive mostly complains and few suggestions/cooperations). If no suggestions shows up, he is in charge of correcting errors. The maintainer may become unresponsive and there are procedures to enroll new maintainers. Either the packages are complaint with fedora.org dispositions (directories, nomenclatures, etc) or they are dropped out (lack of interest in community, obsolescence, etc). The "Fedora Committee" decides what will be in and what will be out of the distribution/image (we can argue about how democratic is the process but I guess we can make the process as democratic as we want in squeak).

Everybody is free to seek for packages out of fedora repositories (freshmeat, sourceforge, etc) but then, if that's the chosen path, the installer is responsible for keep things working.

Another point is that documentation in squeak is really poor. Enrolling maintainers and establishing a standard for documentation would help to make it more popular. Unfortunately browsing methods/messages is not a practical way of doing things if you have to be productive. Also having to find out how things work by the trial and error method is not a solid stand point for convincing your boss that squeak is a fine development tool.

Casimiro de Almeida Barreto wrote: At present "one unconfused person" who knows how to get something
working is powerless to do so using Universes. Even if you wrote a
package, and someone else posted it in the Universe you are powerless to
update that entry without ownership of the entry. Having a Czar for
universes would be a step forward, at least it would stand a chance, at
the moment it is practically locked.

Sake/Packages is open to all to edit the definitions. When we have more
than two contributors to Sake/Packages then we can worry about
confusion. I dont think there will be much.

I suggested using the [hidden email] list for
discussions about Universes and maintaining Sake/Packages etc. I don't
think we have had more than 3 posts on the subject there.
> One model I enjoy (despite its many vices) is the one adopted by
> fedora.org. A guy must enroll to be maintainer of a package and then,
> if approved, he is in charge of receiving error notifications and
> possible cooperations
So now you have a bottleneck, not just one bottleneck, but Nx
bottlenecks. Any attempt to get a combination of 10 packages working can
in worst case scenario be halted or hindered by 10 people.

The maintainers of a package do not usually test their packages in all
the possible combinations in which it is deployed. The users as a
community do.

Sake/Packages enables users to get things working, they can subclass the
published definitions and write their own. This then serves as feedback
as to what is needed to get something working in a particular context.

To be honest loading stuff is now, at last, really easy, what we need
help on now in Sake/Packages now is  getting "unloading" stuff working.
Many package maintainers don't write #unload methods on their classes.

I regret I myself have never had any success with any of the linux
packaging solutions.

regards

Keith

On 15/12/2008, at 12:26, Casimiro de Almeida Barreto wrote:


This is the same i saying several times.

For democratic procedure, we could add "Czar of Packages" to list of  
people running for Board in 2009.

If more as one Squeaker run for this duty, who wins the election  
could be nomitated for one year, same as any running and voted for  
Board.

Edgar

On 15-Dec-2008, at 7:53 AM, Keith Hodges wrote:
Actually literally it is.  Not everyone is capable, let alone inclined  
to do what you suggest.

Practically there _MUST_ be _ONE_ czar of the _official_ PU for a  
given release of Squeak (just as there must be one czar for the image  
content of a given release).  Someone must take responsibility if  
there is to be any real level of quality in the final product.  The  
thing called "Squeak", and the default stuff that ordinary end users  
can do with it, must be reasonably rock solid and stable and usable.

The Swiki currently contains outright lies about the state of PU for  
Squeak 3.10.  Even most of the basic guidelines of PU are being  
totally ignored by the current state of the default one for 3.10.2.  
It is a totally horrendous and completely useless mess so far as I can  
tell.

At the moment _nobody_ I know will _ever_ even dare try Squeak in this  
state, not even the programmers, but certainly not anyone more  
"beginner" than myself.

 From a user interface perspective I find SqueakMap infinitely more  
usable -- if it only contained dependency information and ways to do  
something with it too....  At least some simple filters can be used to  
give higher assurance that something might actually work when the user  
tries it.

--
                                        Greg A. Woods; Planix, Inc.
                                        <[hidden email]>

On 15-Dec-2008, at 5:30 AM, Edgar J. De Cleene wrote:
>
> My 5 cents of peso (less of 1 euro cent) bet is the cause is into  
> UITheme or the fancy enhanced look.
> Look for  LabelMorph, is not a class of base 3.10, for this class  
> responds to contents: should be subclass of StringMorph (maybe)

Just clicking through all the change sets in the change sorter shows a  
LabelMorph class in SmallDEVS-GUI-ke.51.

Here we go again!  One more try without SmallDEVS (I think I selected  
it manually -- i.e. that it was not a dependency of something else I  
wanted, but I guess I have to carefully look for such dependencies).

--
                                        Greg A. Woods; Planix, Inc.
                                        <[hidden email]>

Greg A. Woods; Planix, Inc. wrote: Now then lets not get into an argument. I never said that they HAVE to,
I said that they CAN.

It only takes ONE person to find that a package doesnt work, and it only
takes ONE person to fix it. They don't have to be the same person, and
they don't have to be one person.

Anyone who has a problem with any package in Sake/Packages can go onto
squeak irc and may find perhaps 2 or 3 people there who will know how to
help. They will be able to fix it imedately and once it is fixed then it
will available working for everyone.

Squeak has been without an effective packages solution for so long this
has become a big deal. Personally I think it is trivially easy to get
right, and we dont need a czar at all.

Lets pick an example: Magma:

Magma has 3 installations. Magma client, Magma server, and Magma tester
Magma should work in 3.7, 3.8, 3.9, 3.10 , and 3.11(to be), and Pharo
(to be), thats 18 different definitions in 6 universes.

So when I fix a bug in magma do I have to contact 6 different czars?

With Sake/Packages I can theoretically manage the package definitions
for all 18 in one single image. When a new version of Magma is released
it takes less than 1 minute to update the specific definitions for all 8
images. The non-specific 'beta' definitions may simply track "latest"
automatically.

Keith

On Dec 15, 2008, at 1:05 PM, Keith Hodges wrote:

> So when I fix a bug in magma do I have to contact 6 different czars?

Hopefully not.  Hopefully you would not also have to understand the  
entire packaging system.  (Or open your firewall to allow IRC packets  
to pass...)

- TimJ

Tim Johnson wrote: Oh come on what's with the negativity!

http://www.jwirc.com/chat.html

Keith

On 15-Dec-2008, at 2:05 PM, Keith Hodges wrote:
> Now then lets not get into an argument. I never said that they HAVE  
> to,
> I said that they CAN.

:-)  Indeed.

However with the current state of affairs it would seem that if you  
don't build your own PU then you can't have a stable and usable set of  
packages from which to build your working images with.  At my level  
I'm not even sure how I switch from one PU to another, let alone how I  
might build my own whole PU!  Even calling it a "universe" makes it  
far too daunting for end users to consider rolling their own.  "What,  
I have to create a whole universe!?!?!?"  :-)


> Squeak has been without an effective packages solution for so long  
> this
> has become a big deal.

I would say the main part of the problem is that there is this "new"  
thing called the Package Universes tool but it really wasn't needed in  
the first place -- it was a quick blast at an attempt to solve some  
perceived problems without proper consideration of how those problems  
could be solved with existing tools and without proper consideration  
of the effects such a new tool could have on the the thing called  
"Squeak" and the community that uses it.  As such it turns out to be  
totally un-maintainable and useless.

Unfortunately it is installed as a great big button in the default  
release and everyone is seemingly told to use it to get stuff they want.

I really think SqueakMap with dependencies would be the right fix.  At  
least with SqueakMap I can filter out stuff that hasn't been "blessed"  
by its maintainer(s) to work on my current release and that really  
just leaves the dependencies and conflicts problems.  I think end  
users could pretty much live with SqueakMap if the default filters  
were set to only show stable packages for the release being run, and  
if the dependency and conflict handling problems were solved.

Personally if I were in any way responsible for the Squeak 3.10.2  
release I'd be removing the Package Universe button from the image and  
pushing out a new release and update stream _yesterday_.


> Lets pick an example: Magma:
>
> Magma has 3 installations. Magma client, Magma server, and Magma  
> tester
> Magma should work in 3.7, 3.8, 3.9, 3.10 , and 3.11(to be), and Pharo
> (to be), thats 18 different definitions in 6 universes.
>
> So when I fix a bug in magma do I have to contact 6 different czars?

With the Package Universes way of doing things, IIUC, yes, you really  
must.  Someone has to take responsibility to bless new packages in  
each release.

Package Universes are the logical equivalent to the pkgsrc/ports  
systems in the BSD Unix world.  Pkgsrc is effectively a set of build  
and install rules that end users can use to obtain specific versions  
of packages that have been tested and ported to the OS release they  
are using.  For example in NetBSD pkgsrc the currently "blessed"  
version of Squeak is still 3.9-final-7067 and it is expected to work  
on all currently supported releases of NetBSD on any supported  
hardware platform.  If/when someone ports and tests a newer Squeak  
release to NetBSD _and_ submits an update to the pkgsrc/lang/squeak  
module then NetBSD users of Squeak will be able to upgrade.  Until  
that time though only the adventuresome who know how to port and test  
software from scratch will try any newer release of Squeak on NetBSD.  
This process works for over 7,000 packages that have been ported and  
tested to work on NetBSD (and a similar amount for FreeBSD "ports").  
End users can pick and choose from any or all of those 7,000 packages  
and have reasonable expectations that they will all install and  
actually work.

In the BSD world package maintainers who care about their package on a  
given version of BSD and/or GNU/Linux or Solaris and/or whatever do  
indeed have to contact each pkgsrc/ports/whatever project to let them  
know about the new release and perhaps if they really care they'll  
provide updates to the relevant rules module so that each project can  
more quickly update their packaging system.

Also, in pkgsrc, for example, maintainers might take responsibility  
for a given package or sets of packages and watch for updates from the  
original authors (or even in some cases the pkgsrc maintainer is the  
author).  These maintainers have commit rights to update the relevant  
pkgsrc rules modules.

See www.pkgsrc.org if you're interested in more detail.  There are  
lots of applicable things that can be learned there -- especially  
things about dependency and conflict management.

In the Squeak (and Squeak-related smalltalks) world I think SqueakMap  
could be a better solution for this problem domain in this context,  
provided of course that the dependency tracking and conflict  
management problems are solved.


> With Sake/Packages I can theoretically manage the package definitions
> for all 18 in one single image. When a new version of Magma is  
> released
> it takes less than 1 minute to update the specific definitions for  
> all 8
> images. The non-specific 'beta' definitions may simply track "latest"
> automatically.


Really?  I'm not sure how that works.  Can you really use one image to  
test loading into at least 6 separate images?  Can you run unit tests  
from one image in 6 other images?

With SqueakMap, IIUC, you can immediately say which releases you or  
your beta testers have tested your new packages against.  As an  
unaffiliated user I can choose to turn off the release filter in my  
SqueakMap interface and see your new version and try it out even if it  
hasn't been tested on the release I'm using. At least then I know I'm  
entering new territory on my own.

--
                                        Greg A. Woods; Planix, Inc.
                                        <[hidden email]>

On Dec 15, 2008, at 1:33 PM, Keith Hodges wrote:

Oh, shame on me, I feel compelled to answer.  ;)

IRC is fleeting, temporary, ephemeral...
IRC is cliquey...
IRC is messy...
IRC is addictive...
IRC is an old, old friend of mine.

Suppose someone has a question about the packaging system.  That  
person decides to try IRC for a solution.  The person asks his  
question on IRC, and one or more of the following happens:

1) The one person qualified to answer the question is not there.
2) Nobody answers the question.
3) Other conversation ensues, and the person is not able to tear  
himself away to return to the original problem.
4) The question is answered.

Should the result be #4, that leaves the community with one more  
person now understanding the answer to the problem.  Should another  
person in the future have the same problem, that person will be stuck  
trying his luck with the four steps above.   Or, that person can try  
searching Google, and then come up with an IRC log, which he can then  
try to parse.  That is, if the conversation took place in the public  
channel.  If the question was answered via private message, then the  
exchange which took place on IRC will not help anyone but the person  
who originally sought the answer.

Please don't think I'm dissing IRC as a whole.  I just think it would  
serve the community best if everyone was on the channel, 24 hours a  
day, every day, always listening and answering.  That's a lot of time  
spent on IRC.  Maybe that's your goal  :)

- TimJ

On 15-Dec-2008, at 2:57 PM, Tim Johnson wrote:
>
> Oh, shame on me, I feel compelled to answer.  ;)
>
> IRC is fleeting, temporary, ephemeral...
> IRC is cliquey...
> IRC is messy...
> IRC is addictive...
> IRC is an old, old friend of mine.

Indeed.  IRC is not, and never has been, a good place for _anyone_ to  
just hop in and ask a question, especially not a new user, and  
probably not even an experienced user.  IRC channels are coffee shops,  
bars, street corners, etc.  You go there to converse or proclaim.  You  
don't go there for real information unless you're having a  
(semi-)private conversation and discussion.  IRC channels could be  
classrooms, but only with external structure and scheduling.  People  
do use IRC channels as a form of Instant Messaging, i.e. in hopes of  
finding their friend/mentor/support person online and listening, but  
even with directed IM we all know there are tremendous limitations.

Mailing lists are infinitely better forums for questions, even though  
they too have their problems.

--
                                        Greg A. Woods; Planix, Inc.
                                        <[hidden email]>