Posted by
Bill Schwab-2 on
Sep 29, 2003; 11:45pm
URL: https://forum.world.st/How-does-Dolphin-compare-to-Access-and-Delphi-tp3368794p3368807.html
Jen,
> Thanks for replying!
I'm always glad to spread the word about Dolphin.
> I guess what I'm looking for is a commercial alternative to Squeak
> (that would be more polished),
While off topic here, I'd like to encourage you to tell the Squeak community
where they are falling short.
> and thought Dolphin might fit the bill.
It will, and then some. There are few things about the Squeak IDE that I
actually like, but on whole, Dolphin is remarkably nicer to use.
> Squeak is great but is incomplete in some ways, and I'm not sure how
> end-users would respond to the interface.
Have you looked at Zurgle? It's overkill in many ways, but it demonstrates
that the interface can look any way you want. There are also some other
projects that appear to have fallen short of commercial success, but also
exhibit very attractive interfaces. However, my real fear with Squeak UIs
is the feel more than the look.
> Aside from that, printing is
> one of the main concerns I have with Squeak and was hoping that
> commercial Smalltalks might have better solutions. It sounds like
> printing is a little of a challenge here, too, though ... although
> there are some solutions that people have come up with.
Here's a crazy idea that could work (very well) for some situations: Squeak
appears to have some understanding of post script, which makes a lot of
sense given its portability. I've recently (re)started driving LaTeX from
Dolphin, and there would be nothing to stop you from getting Squeak or
Dolphin to generate LaTeX source that imports EPS graphics as needed, and
have the whole thing be largely transparent to the user.
In Dolphin, you can use a PrinterCanvas to print like any other Windows
player. It's not super easy to do, but I have one Dolphin app that
<shamelessPlug>makes it look easy</shamelessPlug>.
> "Bill Schwab" <
[hidden email]> wrote in message
news:<
[hidden email]>...
> > You can search the archives of this group for some discussion of
reporting.
> > I generally just roll my own using HTML.
>
> I've searched through the archives and read a bunch of threads,
> including one you started about printing through Internet Explorer.
> Did you solve the header/footer problem you mentioned? I've seen other
> people mention the problem of pagination with using IE, so it sounded
> like a less than ideal situation.
I did solve the problem, but not with IE. Instead, I use Automation to
drive Word. There were some tricks with inserting page number fields into
the header/footer, so I finally worked around it by making a "blank"
document with the basics and then poke the required text into various
places. The result is a little awkward because I stopped as soon as it
worked. If that particular system takes off, I will take Word out of it
entirely by extending my existing printing code.
> I've also thought about using COM Automation to get Word to generate
> reports, but this could be problematic for a number of reasons, not
> the least of which are the different versions of Word that are out
> there.
We have generally stayed at the 97 versions, so it's not been a problem for
us. Your point is well taken though, and is one of many reasons that I plan
to dump it in favor of an extended printing framework.
> > The support is excellent. One of the first things you should do is
download
> > the newsgroup archives from Ian Bartholomew's web site, and then get
either
> > his news archive reader or DSDN. Many questions that you will have will
> > already be answered, and are quite easy to find, especially by searching
on
> > one key word and then searching the results for others.
>
> I guess one reason I ask is because I'm subscribed to the squeak
> mailing list. Compared to the traffic on that, the Dolphin newsgroup
> is kind of ... well, it seems like there aren't quite as many people
> here.
As Chris mentioned, the group is quiet right now.
> On the other hand, a lot of Squeak messages are about
> developing the platform ...
Or about why modality is a bad idea, etc. They raise some good points, but
they also exhibit apparent contempt for even common sense conventions. It
almost has to be holding Squeak back.
> If anyone would care to speak up about using Dolphin for commercial
> software development, I'd love to hear! In particular, user reactions
> to software developed with Dolphin.
My software isn't commercial as yet, but that might change, and it is
definitely used in a production mode under very demanding conditions. The
users generally enjoy it. Squeakers would be unhappy to hear that some
boring, traditional modal dialogs are part of the reason it is liked (have I
mentioned that I would like to see you tweak the Squeak group<g>). The
dialogs are generally covered with native widgets. However, another reason
it is so liked is that I dumped many native widgets for emulated ones,
making it **much** faster than it was with native widgets. If that sounds
strange to you, look at the Moen Tree in Dolphin. BTW, my emulated stuff
isn't quite that slick, but it doesn't need to be.
> > It would be interesting to look at five year old trade rags. We were
> > probably all supposed to be writing OLE servers in C++, or was it Java?
>
> Yes, I know, hard to tell what's going to happen in five years ...
> maybe a better question is: Where does Dolphin fit in the pantheon of
> Smalltalks?
The following free advice is worth everything you pay for it: I think you've
got it right. Use Dolphin, and keep an eye on Squeak just in case OA
implodes (which I think is unlikely) or Microsoft makes you or your
customers unable or unwilling to continue using Windows due to some
combination of security, reliability, and price/licensing concerns.
I'm not a fan of VisualWorks, though I'd learn to be if it were all that
stood between me and C* (C/C++/Java/C#/etc.). However, I have trouble
reconciling "we need to make VW cost-neutral" with "Cincom is fully behind
Smalltalk". If the latter were really true, given Cincom's size, they would
deploy VW to the point that they could not afford to let it die, and then
almost any sales revenue would be found money. I would like to see them do
away with the NC version and cut the "what's it worth to you?" nonsense. I
can picture that conversation with my department's accountant =:0
Smalltalk MT. I just don't get it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I looked
at it again a year ago or so, and was apparently expected to resize panes
just to get a typical debugger view. There was some really basic stuff
missing.
I'll defer to others with substantive VA experience.
So far, I've found Squeak to be sufficiently useable that I suspect I could
make it do what I need if Dolphin or Windows were to vaporize. I definitely
think it worthy of an attempt before going to a commercial alternative.
> Is it used mostly for commercial software development or
> is it used mostly by hobbyists? If for commercial projects, how
> successful has it been in that arena?
I use (one might even say abuse) Dolphin every day, and find it to be
probably the best software I've ever seen. My Dolphin executables run 7x24
for weeks, even months at a time without incident. Dolphin is without
question the most reliable system I've ever used.
Being really blunt for a moment, OA is sufficiently small that one plane
crash could simultaneously take away valued friends and (quite likely)
Dolphin's future. That risk combined with my deep concerns about Microsoft
has fueled my interest in Squeak. Again, you should not read into that any
discontent with Dolphin; it's simply that I need to protect the technology
that Dolphin has allowed me to build. I hope to go on using Dolphin, or
perhaps an Object Arts Smalltalk on some other OS.
BTW, Dolphin itself is unlikely to be ported due to it's heavy integration
with Windows. Still I occaisionally like to point out how much easier it
would be to get Dolphin to create a new Smalltalk than it was to create
Dolphin from scratch.
Have a good one,
Bill
--
Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
[hidden email]