> BTW, I've also said many unkind things about Python. And C++. And Scala
> and
> Swift. But I'm being criticized for what I've said about JavaScript?
> Really???
>
> There is certainly no hint of bias here.
>
>
>
> Michael J. Zeder wrote
>> Hey Ben,
>>
>> I leave it with this answer, as you suggested, thank you for picking up
>> the ball!
>> First, I admit again, I have thought about it one whole day, if and how
>> I should do this "intervention", which is absolutly not my usual style,
>> but I decided for myself, to be intentionally blunt, provocative, and
>> parade his virtual presence around here in front of all Pharo users...
>> In the hope that this kicks off something and, of course, that it will
>> not be the final word.
>>
>> I tried to avoid being seen as the hurt one (seems, that I did not
>> quite succeed with this). Javascript is most popular, so R.K. Eng
>> cannot damage this platform with his – let's say... – "opinions",
>> but he can damage Smalltalk and its small community. So I started with
>> making noise, not with the story from my client's managers, who
>> dismissed Pharo, because of his highly ranked Google search results –
>> last year (But in fact, I was annoyed two days ago, I was googling
>> actually a very specific topic about compiler optimization in
>> prototype-based OO, and R.K. Engs ill-informed superficial "lecturing"
>> rants showed up again at third or fourth place, I think, sigh).
>>
>> Short answers to your questions:
>>
>> * Yep, one main concern is his connection between Smalltalk advocacy
>> and discrediting other languages – or making dogmatic, condescending
>> and un-empirical statements of strong typing over weak typing, or
>> class-based over prototype-based OO etc. Just separate that clearly. JS
>> has huge momentum (IMHO absolutly justified), and it would be advisable
>> to say something like "Hey, you like JS? Then look at ST, it is similar
>> but the 'original thing', more pure, and takes the basic concepts even
>> further".
>>
>> * I have to correct myself concerning "wrong statements about ST": it
>> is not so much, that he writes "wrong" things about Pharo, but it is
>> more that R.K.Eng often uses old 1980ies marketing language (like "It
>> is just objects all the way down!"). That was nice back then, a
>> completely new way of thinking, but today, a whole bunch of languages
>> has sprung up from this legacy (dynamic, OO, introspection etc.), among
>> them JS, and have taken the concepts to new forms. His superficial
>> knowledge combined with the over-confident and condescending attitude
>> scares away interested people. The quote I mentioned ("just object all
>> the way down") was one of the blog topics the managers, to whom I tried
>> to advertise Pharo, found ridiculous and laughed at it ("does it work
>> by magic then? What are the primitives and basic value types then?"
>> etc).
>>
>> * Pushing ones own projects is fine, again. But all his publicity
>> effort have a strong taste (maybe it is cultural), that he wants
>> control public perception of the community (and thus steering it).
>> Being "Mr. Smalltalk" is extremly presumptive, in German it would
>> usually refer to an official spokesperson (I think actually, for native
>> English speakers, too...). And if I remember correctly, he did not get
>> a warm welcome, true, but before that, he showed up without any
>> Smalltalk background and just proclaimed himself the new
>> project/marketing manager, without ever asking, what the community
>> actually needs and what the current state is.
>>
>> * The top search results in Google are a major concern for every FOSS
>> project...
>>
>> * If a person constantly and loudly points out that he is "altruistic",
>> and that his self-initiated work (unasked, and reasonably rejected in
>> part) would be worth a lot of money, than this is the opposite of
>> altruistic... Again, maybe a cultural thing.
>>
>> But yes, I like to see becoming this a success story.
>> Thank you! M
>>
>>
>>
>> Am Fr, 1. Mär, 2019 um 6:15 NACHMITTAGS schrieb Ben Coman
>> <
>
>> btc@
>
>> >:
>>> Hi Michael,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your thoughtful followup.
>>>
>>> On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 at 19:59, Michael Zeder <
>
>> post@
>
>> >
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I have carefully thought about, if I should really go publicly
>>>> against one person within the community, and to start this "tirade",
>>>> including the possibility that this causes an escalation, of course
>>>> you cannot/must not silence a person ("Streisand" effect, did not
>>>> know the term, but very fitting). But I decided that this kind of
>>>> public conflicts is what is needed (and will make the community look
>>>> better, not worse), _if_ a certain point is reached.
>>>
>>> I certainly subscribe to the tenet "Community standards do not
>>> maintain themselves: They're maintained by people actively applying
>>> them, visibly, in public." [1]
>>> And I understand the tension in deciding to do so, with the
>>> accompanying risk of making things worse (been there myself)
>>> For me what weakened your first post was the name calling and sense
>>> you were coming from a position of hurt with a story you needed to
>>> justify by "making him wrong".  :)
>>> Much better second time round.
>>>
>>> [1] http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#not_losing
>>>
>>>
>>>> I stand by it, but have reconsidered some points:
>>>> * I do (did) not call for _immediate_ exclusion, but an
>>>> "admonishment" that if certain behaviour is not about to change
>>>> fundamentally, the community will have to act (by publicly
>>>> separating this individual out).
>>>> * Take older articles down, which start flamewars against other
>>>> languages, or more precise: separate them from Smalltalk advocacy!
>>>> If he wants to flame JS (for its various birth defects), fine, but
>>>> don't connect that with pro-Smalltalk articles, for example.
>>>
>>> That seems a reasonable position and a good way to frame it.
>>>
>>>
>>>> * Community efforts shall follow follow some community consensus.
>>>> Core developers are no dictators, of course, but they are the ones
>>>> knowing, what the state of the project is, and where _their_ work
>>>> will lead to. Constantly ignoring this common guidance is
>>>> detrimental to the community. So either, learn Smalltalk core coding
>>>> and challenge the leadership, or do accept that there is some common
>>>> agenda (and there are lots of open tasks: writing tutorials,
>>>> documentation, make old scientific research available, linking and
>>>> connecting showcases).
>>>
>>> His earlier articles got hammered and its natural that created a
>>> defensive position for him to disconnect from the community
>>> leadership.
>>> The trick as for everyone is to not carry those forever and try
>>> starting anew.
>>>
>>>
>>>> * Public opinion does matter. The fact I mentioned Google SEO was
>>>> indeed the starting point for me, to get into or start this flame
>>>> war. Here is my story:
>>>> Two of my clients (medium-sized enterprises) are classical C++/C#
>>>> Windows development companies. I advertised Pharo to them for an
>>>> _internal_ tool (their commerical products won't change to Smalltalk
>>>> of course, but for their own internal dev tasks, Pharo whould have
>>>> been a nice fit). When the managers got back to me, they had googled
>>>> it, and told me, this thing sounds very dubious ("unseriös"). I
>>>> enquired, what they had read, and they told me, this "spokesperson"
>>>> (sic!!!) sounds like a trolling script kid, and they can't employ
>>>> something which is developed (sic!!!) by such people. After some
>>>> explanation, I managed to convince them, that this person is just a
>>>> lonely person, who showed up out of nowhere, is not involved in the
>>>> actual work, and just produces himself on the internet. But too
>>>> late, their impression on Smalltalk was already formed by R.K.Engs
>>>> "blogs" (in the meantime, they rank on top in Google search result).
>>>
>>> You should have led with that !!!!  An experience has a lot more
>>> power than an opinion.
>>>
>>>
>>>> When I did some research of my own yesterday, and saw again, that
>>>> R.K. Engs dubious blog entries were listed on top, I decided to take
>>>> action.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I like to answer to your balanced and thoughtful responses:
>>>>
>>>>> You may disagree about *how* he does such work, the actual content,
>>>>> for sure, but that's a feedback better directed to mr. Eng himself.
>>>>
>>>> R.K. Eng has made it clear in the past many many times in uncertain
>>>> wording, that he is not willing to follow community advice in these
>>>> matters, if his gut is telling him something different...
>>>>
>>>
>>> Some of that community advice has been delivered fairly
>>> confrontation-ally and not really conducive to having someone listen.
>>>
>>>>> Hopefully I've expressed a balanced enough position that this
>>>>> doesn't draw too many responses.
>>>>>
>>>> yes, you did. thank you.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> I agree "Mr Smalltalk" is quite a presumptive title, but really
>>>>>> anyone following the mail lists soon gets an idea of who are the
>>>>>> community merit leaders.
>>>>
>>>> Well, I disagree, based on the experience, I have written down
>>>> above. The internet is very much about who is in the center of the
>>>> focus (SEO/social media). Anybody new to Smalltalk will at first
>>>> glance identify our community with this "spokesperson" (as I have
>>>> experienced with two people, last year already btw)
>>>
>>> Point taken.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Maybe it is a language thing, but "Mr. Smalltalk" is _extremely_
>>>> presumptive (in German, it means the embodiment of the denoted
>>>> thing). If a person is not doing very very thorough reading of ages
>>>> old mail list discussions or is researching, that this person in
>>>> fact never committed any code to the repos, then any newcomer will
>>>> think, this "Mr. Smalltalk" is at least a versed and informed
>>>> Smalltalk developer (which, given his newbie questions he is
>>>> absolutely not).
>>>
>>> Got it.  So apart from fighting directly against his presumption to
>>> the title (which seems difficult)
>>> would cleaning some other-language-denigration from old articles go
>>> some way towards mitigating your concern?
>>>
>>>>>> You are right he hasn't committed any code, but I've not actually
>>>>>> seen him claim credit for any code in Pharo, so this point seems
>>>>>> off.
>>>> true. but as I just wrote, that is what people presume, given his
>>>> way and manner of producing himself. If he wrote honestly wrote "I
>>>> am a fanboy, supporter and advocate of Smalltalk...", great! But he
>>>> claims he worked many many hours without a dime, but worth many
>>>> dollars, and had "tremendous success" in creating a new Smalltalk
>>>> wave.
>>>
>>> I'm pretty by many-hours-without-a dime he meant his evangelism.
>>> If it didn't come across like that, that is probably specific
>>> copy-edit feedback that would be useful to him.
>>>
>>>>>>> * ...is doing SEO to make Google show his own results before FOSS
>>>>>>> community or sciences pages.
>>>>>> I think its equally likely that most in our community are too busy
>>>>>> coding to try getting articles ranked,
>>>>>> so its more lack of effort by most of us. Most of his articles
>>>>>> mention Pharo so people end up finding us anyway.
>>>> might be true (some criticism to the community agenda..? different
>>>> topic)
>>>> The thing is, the wrong information are getting more and more in the
>>>> focus of the internet, pushing aside the community-driven Pharo
>>>> sites (or real scientific papers or well-done tutorials).
>>>
>>> I've read most of his articles.  I don't think he gets much factually
>>> wrong about Pharo (and has corrected those when pointed out).
>>> It seems your main concern about wrong information is attacks on
>>> other languages, which is fair.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> Any money he gets for his writing is not anything that concerns me
>>>>>> personally.  Those articles are his own effort.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, misunderstanding! Of course, he may earn with his writing,
>>>> whatever he gets for it.
>>>> I was referring to the "up-coming" Smalltalk Coding Competition.
>>>
>>> btw, a few weeks ago when Richard asked for help to program the
>>> competition, I volunteered.
>>> I've criticized some of his articles, and maybe there are other
>>> "better" the money could be spent,
>>> but I admire he has stuck to his vision and think its a big thing he
>>> has taken on.
>>> If its going to happen anyway, for me its better to help make it a
>>> success than a flop.
>>> [Sidebar: I haven't managed to do much on it yet since I'm run ragged
>>> on a personal development course until mid-April
>>> that includes running a community project of my own...
>>> https://www.nanpopcode.fun/]
>>>
>>>
>>>> Now, yes, that money doesn't go into his own pockets (would be
>>>> criminal fraud), but the thing is, he controls this money.
>>>> Who will be the judges? Who will set parameters for the competition?
>>>> Transparency?
>>>> What is the benefit that goes back into the community? Now, it is
>>>> fine, that he is pushing for things like that, but again, he is
>>>> doing it without synchronising this effort with what is needed by
>>>> the community.
>>>
>>> He got a reasonable number of supporters on GoFundMe (I wasn't one at
>>> the time),
>>> and I believe the majority of the money comes from a few companies
>>> so I expect its really their opinion that counts about how their
>>> money is spent.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>> * ...denies community leadership by merit (Pharo core developers
>>>>>>> do know, what they have created and where they want to go in the
>>>>>>> future,
>>>>>> I don't see him claiming leadership of our community or trying to
>>>>>> set our agenda.
>>>>>> He just didn't let community criticism of his writing slow him
>>>>>> down.
>>>>>> All I observed is that several people bit him and he bit back -
>>>>>> fairly usual sort of poor communication on both sides (including
>>>>>> me).
>>>>
>>>> Well, as written above, the manner of his web appearance is
>>>> implicitly a claim of community leadership. Not an exclusive one of
>>>> course, but he wants to be perceived of one of the most important
>>>> persons in the community (he told so many times, explicitly). And
>>>> given my experience, read above, this had already a (negative)
>>>> success with it.
>>>> And I think he is setting agenda: "Make Smalltalk great/mainstream
>>>> again" is the baseline, and that is something, only the core dev
>>>> team and the community as a whole can decide/make happen (I love
>>>> Smalltalk, but he promises wrong things, so if, just for example,
>>>> C++/Qt devs or _modern_ JS devs have a first look at Smalltalk with
>>>> the expectation they could already do the same thing as in their
>>>> usual platforms, they will be disappointed --> synchronize a
>>>> marketing agenda with what this great project currently is about,
>>>> but he is not willing to cooperate with the core dev team)
>>>
>>> Fair enough.  Since in a couple of months I'll be helping him out,
>>> I'll have an opportunity to raise these concerns with him.
>>>
>>>>>> Him swearing about a group of Pharo people is good ammunition to
>>>>>> bring to the mail list to support your point,
>>>>>> but I also see he was rather provoked.  Overall I feel this
>>>>>> extract was better left in that small corner of the internet
>>>>>> rather than fan flames here.
>>>>
>>>> :) Yeah... no! I think this is really a central point (so I put him
>>>> in the pillory here with intent). There is something called
>>>> community/FOSS ethics and structures.
>>>> He does not show _respect_ towards those people, who did the work,
>>>> but produces himself, and pushes for things, which the people who
>>>> devoted their work to this project, told him that it is
>>>> counter-productive. That is, in the long-run, a very dangerous
>>>> situation.
>>>
>>> I agree, its not great.  But he didn't get a warm welcome and some of
>>> his early interactions were abrasive.
>>> Considering two extremes, you can either be inclusive and hopefully
>>> nurture/mold, or exclude and lose any chance at that.
>>> Like a lot of things, the path is somewhere in the middle and needs a
>>> bit of give and take on both sides.
>>>
>>>>>>> PS: a side note on Javascript (with lower S). wether you love or
>>>>>>> hate this quirky lovechild of Lisp and Self/Smalltalk, telling JS
>>>>>>> developers they are stupid and that they should abandon powerful
>>>>>>> Vue.js, for example, in favor of Amber Smalltalk [cudos to Amber
>>>>>>> devs! great thing!]) is utterly stupid!
>>>>>> Agree.  But banning everyone in the world for similar stupidity
>>>>>> would leave the internet awfully quiet.
>>>> Sure! Again: I am against silencing or banning anybody (and how
>>>> could you). But if this becomes unbearable, there needs to be a
>>>> public separation, so he does not drag the project down. People need
>>>> to speak up against such usurpation.
>>>
>>> I appreciate the stand your are taking for the community.
>>> I've gained from your share of your workplace experience.
>>>
>>>>>>> (which in the end are only a self-serving, ego-centric,
>>>>>>> attention-greedy campaign to promote "Mr. Smalltalk" himself, a
>>>>>>> total newbie, who claims credit for the work of others).
>>>>>> Your repeated "claims credit for the work of others" is quite
>>>>>> provocative and I haven't noticed this in his writings. Could you
>>>>>> provide a link?
>>>>
>>>> See above, maybe it is a cultural thing, but as I told in my
>>>> experience, all of his appearance screams for being recognized as
>>>> one of the most important persons in the community (he is
>>>> condescendingly mocking marketing efforts of the last 40 years,
>>>> claims that he is the one who will "make smalltalk great again"...)
>>>>
>>>> Yes I am provocative this time, not my normal style (and I admit, I
>>>> was tripped-out by his provocative blog title "Even people who
>>>> understand prototypal programming do not like it – an inconvienent
>>>> truth"; that is dripping off arrogance and ignorance... And sheds a
>>>> bad light on Smalltalk, with which he wants to be identified in the
>>>> web)
>>>
>>> Got it.
>>> Let me ask to park this thread for the moment, because it can be
>>> quite distracting if everyone chips in an opinion.
>>> I think you've made some fair points and I'll put myself on the line
>>> to discuss them with Richard when I start helping him with his
>>> competition project.
>>>
>>> cheers -ben
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html