> On Apr 10, 2019, at 12:38, Tim Mackinnon <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> How about we just move on? I don’t see much usefulness in arguing over older stuff - I’m sure you/we/them will have different opinions on levels of incorrectness - honestly it’s not worth it.
>
> I think you’ve defended your corner fine , but I would much prefer that everyone focuses on the merits of their respective languages/approaches - I’m more interested seeing energy invested in the next cool things in all languages. I’m also keen for us also  finishing off the bits we still in progress. And I hope we can constructively share ideas ...
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 10 Apr 2019, at 19:25, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Just to prove that I'm a very reasonable person, I make this unconditional
>> offer...
>>
>> If Michael can identify which of my JavaScript and Python articles are in
>> error and point out the specific falsehoods, I will correct them. I presume
>> that not ALL of my criticisms are unjustified.
>>
>> This should assuage any concerns that JavaScript and Python developers who
>> read my articles are mislead and think I don't know what I'm talking about.
>> I trust this will prevent Smalltalk (and Pharo) from being placed in a bad
>> light.
>>
>> See? I can be very accommodating. I look forward to the suggested
>> amendments.
>>
>>
>>
>> horrido wrote
>>> BTW, I've also said many unkind things about Python. And C++. And Scala
>>> and
>>> Swift. But I'm being criticized for what I've said about JavaScript?
>>> Really???
>>>
>>> There is certainly no hint of bias here.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael J. Zeder wrote
>>>> Hey Ben,
>>>>
>>>> I leave it with this answer, as you suggested, thank you for picking up
>>>> the ball!
>>>> First, I admit again, I have thought about it one whole day, if and how
>>>> I should do this "intervention", which is absolutly not my usual style,
>>>> but I decided for myself, to be intentionally blunt, provocative, and
>>>> parade his virtual presence around here in front of all Pharo users...
>>>> In the hope that this kicks off something and, of course, that it will
>>>> not be the final word.
>>>>
>>>> I tried to avoid being seen as the hurt one (seems, that I did not
>>>> quite succeed with this). Javascript is most popular, so R.K. Eng
>>>> cannot damage this platform with his – let's say... – "opinions",
>>>> but he can damage Smalltalk and its small community. So I started with
>>>> making noise, not with the story from my client's managers, who
>>>> dismissed Pharo, because of his highly ranked Google search results –
>>>> last year (But in fact, I was annoyed two days ago, I was googling
>>>> actually a very specific topic about compiler optimization in
>>>> prototype-based OO, and R.K. Engs ill-informed superficial "lecturing"
>>>> rants showed up again at third or fourth place, I think, sigh).
>>>>
>>>> Short answers to your questions:
>>>>
>>>> * Yep, one main concern is his connection between Smalltalk advocacy
>>>> and discrediting other languages – or making dogmatic, condescending
>>>> and un-empirical statements of strong typing over weak typing, or
>>>> class-based over prototype-based OO etc. Just separate that clearly. JS
>>>> has huge momentum (IMHO absolutly justified), and it would be advisable
>>>> to say something like "Hey, you like JS? Then look at ST, it is similar
>>>> but the 'original thing', more pure, and takes the basic concepts even
>>>> further".
>>>>
>>>> * I have to correct myself concerning "wrong statements about ST": it
>>>> is not so much, that he writes "wrong" things about Pharo, but it is
>>>> more that R.K.Eng often uses old 1980ies marketing language (like "It
>>>> is just objects all the way down!"). That was nice back then, a
>>>> completely new way of thinking, but today, a whole bunch of languages
>>>> has sprung up from this legacy (dynamic, OO, introspection etc.), among
>>>> them JS, and have taken the concepts to new forms. His superficial
>>>> knowledge combined with the over-confident and condescending attitude
>>>> scares away interested people. The quote I mentioned ("just object all
>>>> the way down") was one of the blog topics the managers, to whom I tried
>>>> to advertise Pharo, found ridiculous and laughed at it ("does it work
>>>> by magic then? What are the primitives and basic value types then?"
>>>> etc).
>>>>
>>>> * Pushing ones own projects is fine, again. But all his publicity
>>>> effort have a strong taste (maybe it is cultural), that he wants
>>>> control public perception of the community (and thus steering it).
>>>> Being "Mr. Smalltalk" is extremly presumptive, in German it would
>>>> usually refer to an official spokesperson (I think actually, for native
>>>> English speakers, too...). And if I remember correctly, he did not get
>>>> a warm welcome, true, but before that, he showed up without any
>>>> Smalltalk background and just proclaimed himself the new
>>>> project/marketing manager, without ever asking, what the community
>>>> actually needs and what the current state is.
>>>>
>>>> * The top search results in Google are a major concern for every FOSS
>>>> project...
>>>>
>>>> * If a person constantly and loudly points out that he is "altruistic",
>>>> and that his self-initiated work (unasked, and reasonably rejected in
>>>> part) would be worth a lot of money, than this is the opposite of
>>>> altruistic... Again, maybe a cultural thing.
>>>>
>>>> But yes, I like to see becoming this a success story.
>>>> Thank you! M
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am Fr, 1. Mär, 2019 um 6:15 NACHMITTAGS schrieb Ben Coman
>>>> &lt;
>>>
>>>> btc@
>>>
>>>> &gt;:
>>>>> Hi Michael,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for your thoughtful followup.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 at 19:59, Michael Zeder &lt;
>>>
>>>> post@
>>>
>>>> &gt;
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have carefully thought about, if I should really go publicly
>>>>>> against one person within the community, and to start this "tirade",
>>>>>> including the possibility that this causes an escalation, of course
>>>>>> you cannot/must not silence a person ("Streisand" effect, did not
>>>>>> know the term, but very fitting). But I decided that this kind of
>>>>>> public conflicts is what is needed (and will make the community look
>>>>>> better, not worse), _if_ a certain point is reached.
>>>>>
>>>>> I certainly subscribe to the tenet "Community standards do not
>>>>> maintain themselves: They're maintained by people actively applying
>>>>> them, visibly, in public." [1]
>>>>> And I understand the tension in deciding to do so, with the
>>>>> accompanying risk of making things worse (been there myself)
>>>>> For me what weakened your first post was the name calling and sense
>>>>> you were coming from a position of hurt with a story you needed to
>>>>> justify by "making him wrong".  :)
>>>>> Much better second time round.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#not_losing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I stand by it, but have reconsidered some points:
>>>>>> * I do (did) not call for _immediate_ exclusion, but an
>>>>>> "admonishment" that if certain behaviour is not about to change
>>>>>> fundamentally, the community will have to act (by publicly
>>>>>> separating this individual out).
>>>>>> * Take older articles down, which start flamewars against other
>>>>>> languages, or more precise: separate them from Smalltalk advocacy!
>>>>>> If he wants to flame JS (for its various birth defects), fine, but
>>>>>> don't connect that with pro-Smalltalk articles, for example.
>>>>>
>>>>> That seems a reasonable position and a good way to frame it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> * Community efforts shall follow follow some community consensus.
>>>>>> Core developers are no dictators, of course, but they are the ones
>>>>>> knowing, what the state of the project is, and where _their_ work
>>>>>> will lead to. Constantly ignoring this common guidance is
>>>>>> detrimental to the community. So either, learn Smalltalk core coding
>>>>>> and challenge the leadership, or do accept that there is some common
>>>>>> agenda (and there are lots of open tasks: writing tutorials,
>>>>>> documentation, make old scientific research available, linking and
>>>>>> connecting showcases).
>>>>>
>>>>> His earlier articles got hammered and its natural that created a
>>>>> defensive position for him to disconnect from the community
>>>>> leadership.
>>>>> The trick as for everyone is to not carry those forever and try
>>>>> starting anew.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> * Public opinion does matter. The fact I mentioned Google SEO was
>>>>>> indeed the starting point for me, to get into or start this flame
>>>>>> war. Here is my story:
>>>>>> Two of my clients (medium-sized enterprises) are classical C++/C#
>>>>>> Windows development companies. I advertised Pharo to them for an
>>>>>> _internal_ tool (their commerical products won't change to Smalltalk
>>>>>> of course, but for their own internal dev tasks, Pharo whould have
>>>>>> been a nice fit). When the managers got back to me, they had googled
>>>>>> it, and told me, this thing sounds very dubious ("unseriös"). I
>>>>>> enquired, what they had read, and they told me, this "spokesperson"
>>>>>> (sic!!!) sounds like a trolling script kid, and they can't employ
>>>>>> something which is developed (sic!!!) by such people. After some
>>>>>> explanation, I managed to convince them, that this person is just a
>>>>>> lonely person, who showed up out of nowhere, is not involved in the
>>>>>> actual work, and just produces himself on the internet. But too
>>>>>> late, their impression on Smalltalk was already formed by R.K.Engs
>>>>>> "blogs" (in the meantime, they rank on top in Google search result).
>>>>>
>>>>> You should have led with that !!!!  An experience has a lot more
>>>>> power than an opinion.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> When I did some research of my own yesterday, and saw again, that
>>>>>> R.K. Engs dubious blog entries were listed on top, I decided to take
>>>>>> action.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I like to answer to your balanced and thoughtful responses:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You may disagree about *how* he does such work, the actual content,
>>>>>>> for sure, but that's a feedback better directed to mr. Eng himself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> R.K. Eng has made it clear in the past many many times in uncertain
>>>>>> wording, that he is not willing to follow community advice in these
>>>>>> matters, if his gut is telling him something different...
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Some of that community advice has been delivered fairly
>>>>> confrontation-ally and not really conducive to having someone listen.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hopefully I've expressed a balanced enough position that this
>>>>>>> doesn't draw too many responses.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> yes, you did. thank you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree "Mr Smalltalk" is quite a presumptive title, but really
>>>>>>>> anyone following the mail lists soon gets an idea of who are the
>>>>>>>> community merit leaders.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, I disagree, based on the experience, I have written down
>>>>>> above. The internet is very much about who is in the center of the
>>>>>> focus (SEO/social media). Anybody new to Smalltalk will at first
>>>>>> glance identify our community with this "spokesperson" (as I have
>>>>>> experienced with two people, last year already btw)
>>>>>
>>>>> Point taken.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe it is a language thing, but "Mr. Smalltalk" is _extremely_
>>>>>> presumptive (in German, it means the embodiment of the denoted
>>>>>> thing). If a person is not doing very very thorough reading of ages
>>>>>> old mail list discussions or is researching, that this person in
>>>>>> fact never committed any code to the repos, then any newcomer will
>>>>>> think, this "Mr. Smalltalk" is at least a versed and informed
>>>>>> Smalltalk developer (which, given his newbie questions he is
>>>>>> absolutely not).
>>>>>
>>>>> Got it.  So apart from fighting directly against his presumption to
>>>>> the title (which seems difficult)
>>>>> would cleaning some other-language-denigration from old articles go
>>>>> some way towards mitigating your concern?
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You are right he hasn't committed any code, but I've not actually
>>>>>>>> seen him claim credit for any code in Pharo, so this point seems
>>>>>>>> off.
>>>>>> true. but as I just wrote, that is what people presume, given his
>>>>>> way and manner of producing himself. If he wrote honestly wrote "I
>>>>>> am a fanboy, supporter and advocate of Smalltalk...", great! But he
>>>>>> claims he worked many many hours without a dime, but worth many
>>>>>> dollars, and had "tremendous success" in creating a new Smalltalk
>>>>>> wave.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm pretty by many-hours-without-a dime he meant his evangelism.
>>>>> If it didn't come across like that, that is probably specific
>>>>> copy-edit feedback that would be useful to him.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> * ...is doing SEO to make Google show his own results before FOSS
>>>>>>>>> community or sciences pages.
>>>>>>>> I think its equally likely that most in our community are too busy
>>>>>>>> coding to try getting articles ranked,
>>>>>>>> so its more lack of effort by most of us. Most of his articles
>>>>>>>> mention Pharo so people end up finding us anyway.
>>>>>> might be true (some criticism to the community agenda..? different
>>>>>> topic)
>>>>>> The thing is, the wrong information are getting more and more in the
>>>>>> focus of the internet, pushing aside the community-driven Pharo
>>>>>> sites (or real scientific papers or well-done tutorials).
>>>>>
>>>>> I've read most of his articles.  I don't think he gets much factually
>>>>> wrong about Pharo (and has corrected those when pointed out).
>>>>> It seems your main concern about wrong information is attacks on
>>>>> other languages, which is fair.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Any money he gets for his writing is not anything that concerns me
>>>>>>>> personally.  Those articles are his own effort.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, misunderstanding! Of course, he may earn with his writing,
>>>>>> whatever he gets for it.
>>>>>> I was referring to the "up-coming" Smalltalk Coding Competition.
>>>>>
>>>>> btw, a few weeks ago when Richard asked for help to program the
>>>>> competition, I volunteered.
>>>>> I've criticized some of his articles, and maybe there are other
>>>>> "better" the money could be spent,
>>>>> but I admire he has stuck to his vision and think its a big thing he
>>>>> has taken on.
>>>>> If its going to happen anyway, for me its better to help make it a
>>>>> success than a flop.
>>>>> [Sidebar: I haven't managed to do much on it yet since I'm run ragged
>>>>> on a personal development course until mid-April
>>>>> that includes running a community project of my own...
>>>>> https://www.nanpopcode.fun/]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, yes, that money doesn't go into his own pockets (would be
>>>>>> criminal fraud), but the thing is, he controls this money.
>>>>>> Who will be the judges? Who will set parameters for the competition?
>>>>>> Transparency?
>>>>>> What is the benefit that goes back into the community? Now, it is
>>>>>> fine, that he is pushing for things like that, but again, he is
>>>>>> doing it without synchronising this effort with what is needed by
>>>>>> the community.
>>>>>
>>>>> He got a reasonable number of supporters on GoFundMe (I wasn't one at
>>>>> the time),
>>>>> and I believe the majority of the money comes from a few companies
>>>>> so I expect its really their opinion that counts about how their
>>>>> money is spent.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> * ...denies community leadership by merit (Pharo core developers
>>>>>>>>> do know, what they have created and where they want to go in the
>>>>>>>>> future,
>>>>>>>> I don't see him claiming leadership of our community or trying to
>>>>>>>> set our agenda.
>>>>>>>> He just didn't let community criticism of his writing slow him
>>>>>>>> down.
>>>>>>>> All I observed is that several people bit him and he bit back -
>>>>>>>> fairly usual sort of poor communication on both sides (including
>>>>>>>> me).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, as written above, the manner of his web appearance is
>>>>>> implicitly a claim of community leadership. Not an exclusive one of
>>>>>> course, but he wants to be perceived of one of the most important
>>>>>> persons in the community (he told so many times, explicitly). And
>>>>>> given my experience, read above, this had already a (negative)
>>>>>> success with it.
>>>>>> And I think he is setting agenda: "Make Smalltalk great/mainstream
>>>>>> again" is the baseline, and that is something, only the core dev
>>>>>> team and the community as a whole can decide/make happen (I love
>>>>>> Smalltalk, but he promises wrong things, so if, just for example,
>>>>>> C++/Qt devs or _modern_ JS devs have a first look at Smalltalk with
>>>>>> the expectation they could already do the same thing as in their
>>>>>> usual platforms, they will be disappointed --> synchronize a
>>>>>> marketing agenda with what this great project currently is about,
>>>>>> but he is not willing to cooperate with the core dev team)
>>>>>
>>>>> Fair enough.  Since in a couple of months I'll be helping him out,
>>>>> I'll have an opportunity to raise these concerns with him.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Him swearing about a group of Pharo people is good ammunition to
>>>>>>>> bring to the mail list to support your point,
>>>>>>>> but I also see he was rather provoked.  Overall I feel this
>>>>>>>> extract was better left in that small corner of the internet
>>>>>>>> rather than fan flames here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> :) Yeah... no! I think this is really a central point (so I put him
>>>>>> in the pillory here with intent). There is something called
>>>>>> community/FOSS ethics and structures.
>>>>>> He does not show _respect_ towards those people, who did the work,
>>>>>> but produces himself, and pushes for things, which the people who
>>>>>> devoted their work to this project, told him that it is
>>>>>> counter-productive. That is, in the long-run, a very dangerous
>>>>>> situation.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree, its not great.  But he didn't get a warm welcome and some of
>>>>> his early interactions were abrasive.
>>>>> Considering two extremes, you can either be inclusive and hopefully
>>>>> nurture/mold, or exclude and lose any chance at that.
>>>>> Like a lot of things, the path is somewhere in the middle and needs a
>>>>> bit of give and take on both sides.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> PS: a side note on Javascript (with lower S). wether you love or
>>>>>>>>> hate this quirky lovechild of Lisp and Self/Smalltalk, telling JS
>>>>>>>>> developers they are stupid and that they should abandon powerful
>>>>>>>>> Vue.js, for example, in favor of Amber Smalltalk [cudos to Amber
>>>>>>>>> devs! great thing!]) is utterly stupid!
>>>>>>>> Agree.  But banning everyone in the world for similar stupidity
>>>>>>>> would leave the internet awfully quiet.
>>>>>> Sure! Again: I am against silencing or banning anybody (and how
>>>>>> could you). But if this becomes unbearable, there needs to be a
>>>>>> public separation, so he does not drag the project down. People need
>>>>>> to speak up against such usurpation.
>>>>>
>>>>> I appreciate the stand your are taking for the community.
>>>>> I've gained from your share of your workplace experience.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (which in the end are only a self-serving, ego-centric,
>>>>>>>>> attention-greedy campaign to promote "Mr. Smalltalk" himself, a
>>>>>>>>> total newbie, who claims credit for the work of others).
>>>>>>>> Your repeated "claims credit for the work of others" is quite
>>>>>>>> provocative and I haven't noticed this in his writings. Could you
>>>>>>>> provide a link?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See above, maybe it is a cultural thing, but as I told in my
>>>>>> experience, all of his appearance screams for being recognized as
>>>>>> one of the most important persons in the community (he is
>>>>>> condescendingly mocking marketing efforts of the last 40 years,
>>>>>> claims that he is the one who will "make smalltalk great again"...)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes I am provocative this time, not my normal style (and I admit, I
>>>>>> was tripped-out by his provocative blog title "Even people who
>>>>>> understand prototypal programming do not like it – an inconvienent
>>>>>> truth"; that is dripping off arrogance and ignorance... And sheds a
>>>>>> bad light on Smalltalk, with which he wants to be identified in the
>>>>>> web)
>>>>>
>>>>> Got it.
>>>>> Let me ask to park this thread for the moment, because it can be
>>>>> quite distracting if everyone chips in an opinion.
>>>>> I think you've made some fair points and I'll put myself on the line
>>>>> to discuss them with Richard when I start helping him with his
>>>>> competition project.
>>>>>
>>>>> cheers -ben
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>
>
>