two bugs with fonts 4.5-13671

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two bugs with fonts 4.5-13671

vaidasd
Hello,

reported two bugs Version 4.5-13671:

0007809: turning off bigDisplay preference does not return to the
previous display settings.
0007810: Cursor is positioned improperly for the underscore character
'_'(asciiValue 95)
Using default preferences paste the string
'__________________________________' in workspace, and press End key.
Cursor is positioned improperly for the underscore character
'_'(asciiValue 95)Bitmap DejaVu Sans, all font sizes. .

regards,
Vaidotas

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Re: two bugs with fonts 4.5-13671

Chris Muller-3
Thanks for the report.  The same problem appears in the 4.4 release.

Fonts have been somewhat broken for several releases and we really
need to fix them up some day.

On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 3:12 AM, Vaidotas Didžbalis <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> reported two bugs Version 4.5-13671:
>
> 0007809: turning off bigDisplay preference does not return to the
> previous display settings.
> 0007810: Cursor is positioned improperly for the underscore character
> '_'(asciiValue 95)
> Using default preferences paste the string
> '__________________________________' in workspace, and press End key.
> Cursor is positioned improperly for the underscore character
> '_'(asciiValue 95)Bitmap DejaVu Sans, all font sizes. .
>
> regards,
> Vaidotas
>

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Re: two bugs with fonts 4.5-13671

Bert Freudenberg
On 06.02.2014, at 17:10, Chris Muller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks for the report.  The same problem appears in the 4.4 release.

Really? IMHO the simple cursor from previous releases looked much better, and did not have this problem.

I'd rather turn the dumbbell shape off. It looks plain weird to me - I only know this shape as a mouse cursor, not as shape for the insertion point (does any system have that?)

- Bert -

>
> Fonts have been somewhat broken for several releases and we really
> need to fix them up some day.
>
> On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 3:12 AM, Vaidotas Didžbalis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> reported two bugs Version 4.5-13671:
>>
>> 0007809: turning off bigDisplay preference does not return to the
>> previous display settings.
>> 0007810: Cursor is positioned improperly for the underscore character
>> '_'(asciiValue 95)
>> Using default preferences paste the string
>> '__________________________________' in workspace, and press End key.
>> Cursor is positioned improperly for the underscore character
>> '_'(asciiValue 95)Bitmap DejaVu Sans, all font sizes. .
>>
>> regards,
>> Vaidotas
>>
>



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Re: two bugs with fonts 4.5-13671

Nicolas Cellier
In reply to this post by vaidasd



2014-02-06 Vaidotas Didžbalis <[hidden email]>:
Hello,

reported two bugs Version 4.5-13671:

0007809: turning off bigDisplay preference does not return to the
previous display settings.
0007810: Cursor is positioned improperly for the underscore character
'_'(asciiValue 95)
Using default preferences paste the string
'__________________________________' in workspace, and press End key.
Cursor is positioned improperly for the underscore character
'_'(asciiValue 95)Bitmap DejaVu Sans, all font sizes. .


Hi,
I could not reproduce 7810, can you be more specific?
Where is the cursor displayed? What's your expectation?
Is it related to the size of the window?
Are underscore displayed as the left arrow?
Could you provide a screenshot?

Thanks
 
regards,
Vaidotas




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Re: two bugs with fonts 4.5-13671

timrowledge
In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg

On 06-02-2014, at 9:32 AM, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'd rather turn the dumbbell shape off. It looks plain weird to me - I only know this shape as a mouse cursor, not as shape for the insertion point (does any system have that?)

I’m not a fan of it but I do have vague recollections of it being used somewhere. Oh, wait, I think one or two RISC OS text/doc editors used something like that, a fairly chunky capital ‘I’ shape with large serifs. One *could* argue that it is more visible than a plain line, I suppose.

I’m not a fan of the implementation either; just look at NewParagraph>displaySelectionLine:on: - if ‘caretWidth’ is > 1 then you get triangles at top and bottom! No option to have a 2-pixel wide bar for you! Too late to do anything about that for now though; I’d second the request to turn off that setting if we have another RC. If not, well it’s just *another* setting I have to alter and install for every new image. I won’t mention the insane swapping of mouse buttons middle/right because that would *Be Insane GRRRRRRRRR*.

tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
Useful Latin Phrases:- Die dulci fruere = Have a nice day



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Re: two bugs with fonts 4.5-13671

Chris Muller-3
In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg
>> Thanks for the report.  The same problem appears in the 4.4 release.
>
> Really? IMHO the simple cursor from previous releases looked much better...

The "simple" cursor is hard to see.  And when you do see it, the
flashing is distracting.

> and did not have this problem.

I'm with Nicolas -- couldn't reproduce.  You could?  How?

> I'd rather turn the dumbbell shape off. It looks plain weird to me - I only know this shape as a mouse cursor, not as shape for the insertion point (does any system have that?)

You knew it as the cursor in all of Squeak 3.x (and, probably 2.x).
It's nothing new, just your complaint.

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Re: two bugs with fonts 4.5-13671

timrowledge

On 06-02-2014, at 12:17 PM, Chris Muller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> You knew it as the cursor in all of Squeak 3.x (and, probably 2.x).
> It's nothing new, just your complaint.
>

It’s true - at least in an ancient 3.8 image I’ve just looked at. However, it was a nasty lime green (on a slightly blue-ish grey?) background which makes it really hard to see as anything beyond a sort-of interruption in the view. You don’t see the slight ugliness of the triangles but only because you (at least, I) can hardly see it at all…

And oh, the scary colours in 3.8!

tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
Strange OpCodes: CDC: Clear Disks and Crash



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Re: two bugs with fonts 4.5-13671

Frank Shearar-3
In reply to this post by timrowledge
On 6 February 2014 18:50, tim Rowledge <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 06-02-2014, at 9:32 AM, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I'd rather turn the dumbbell shape off. It looks plain weird to me - I only know this shape as a mouse cursor, not as shape for the insertion point (does any system have that?)
>
> I’m not a fan of it but I do have vague recollections of it being used somewhere. Oh, wait, I think one or two RISC OS text/doc editors used something like that, a fairly chunky capital ‘I’ shape with large serifs. One *could* argue that it is more visible than a plain line, I suppose.
>
> I’m not a fan of the implementation either; just look at NewParagraph>displaySelectionLine:on: - if ‘caretWidth’ is > 1 then you get triangles at top and bottom! No option to have a 2-pixel wide bar for you! Too late to do anything about that for now though; I’d second the request to turn off that setting if we have another RC. If not, well it’s just *another* setting I have to alter and install for every new image. I won’t mention the insane swapping of mouse buttons middle/right because that would *Be Insane GRRRRRRRRR*.

Could be worse: I have two machines, both Windows boxes, _one_ of
which needs swapping switched off to have proper clicks.

frank

> tim

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Re: two bugs with fonts 4.5-13671

Bert Freudenberg
On 06.02.2014, at 21:54, Frank Shearar <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have two machines, both Windows boxes, _one_ of
> which needs swapping switched off to have proper clicks.

With identical VM settings?

- Bert -





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Re: two bugs with fonts 4.5-13671

Bert Freudenberg
In reply to this post by Chris Muller-3
On 06.02.2014, at 21:17, Chris Muller <[hidden email]> wrote:

>>> Thanks for the report.  The same problem appears in the 4.4 release.
>>
>> Really? IMHO the simple cursor from previous releases looked much better...
>
> The "simple" cursor is hard to see.  And when you do see it, the
> flashing is distracting.

I thought we agreed on having first-impressions (out-of-the box experience) be non-distracting. A blinking black vertical line is "normal" in pretty much any modern UI. This is nothing where Squeak should stand out.

>> and did not have this problem.
>
> I'm with Nicolas -- couldn't reproduce.  You could?  How?

The baseline of the dumbbell looks wrong wrt the underline. Maybe that's a different problem, but it looks bad.

>> I'd rather turn the dumbbell shape off. It looks plain weird to me - I only know this shape as a mouse cursor, not as shape for the insertion point (does any system have that?)
>
> You knew it as the cursor in all of Squeak 3.x (and, probably 2.x).
> It's nothing new, just your complaint.

No, I was happy that we switched to a regular cursor, and see no good reason to go back. It's one thing less that immediately puts off people who see Squeak for the first time.

- Bert -





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Re: two bugs with fonts 4.5-13671

Frank Shearar-3
In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg
On 6 February 2014 20:56, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 06.02.2014, at 21:54, Frank Shearar <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I have two machines, both Windows boxes, _one_ of
>> which needs swapping switched off to have proper clicks.
>
> With identical VM settings?

Actually, you know, I'm completely mistaken. I must have misremembered
the events of last night (when last I fired up an image on my
non-weird laptop), because I see now I need to unswap on _both_
machines to get sensible mouse behaviour.

Sorry for the noise :(

frank

> - Bert -

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Re: two bugs with fonts 4.5-13671

Bert Freudenberg
On 06.02.2014, at 22:08, Frank Shearar <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 6 February 2014 20:56, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 06.02.2014, at 21:54, Frank Shearar <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> I have two machines, both Windows boxes, _one_ of
>>> which needs swapping switched off to have proper clicks.
>>
>> With identical VM settings?
>
> Actually, you know, I'm completely mistaken. I must have misremembered
> the events of last night (when last I fired up an image on my
> non-weird laptop), because I see now I need to unswap on _both_
> machines to get sensible mouse behaviour.
>
> Sorry for the noise :(
No problem. But the normal way to fix this is changing the VM settings rather than the preference.

We should verify that our VMs do the Right Thing by default though. Right click should generate blue button on all platforms, unless you change from the default settings. The Etoys image does have swap buttons off, so right click is blue and brings up the halos, which is correct for Etoys. Squeak-dev image has swap buttons on, so right click is yellow and brings up the context menu.

- Bert -





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Re: two bugs with fonts 4.5-13671

timrowledge

On 06-02-2014, at 1:19 PM, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
> No problem. But the normal way to fix this is changing the VM settings rather than the preferenc

So why an in-image preference? It’s more than slightly weird to have both.

>
> We should verify that our VMs do the Right Thing by default though. Right click should generate blue button on all platforms, unless you change from the default settings. The Etoys image does have swap buttons off, so right click is blue and brings up the halos, which is correct for Etoys. Squeak-dev image has swap buttons on, so right click is yellow and brings up the context menu.

And the latter is just plain wrong. Just for starters it goes contrary to all the help type doc I see (which certainly isn’t all of it, of course) and *everybody* knows it’s red-yellow-blue and not red-blue-yellow!


tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
Useful random insult:- S  p  a  c  e  d   o  u  t .



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Re: two bugs with fonts 4.5-13671

Frank Shearar-3
In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg
On 6 February 2014 21:19, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 06.02.2014, at 22:08, Frank Shearar <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 6 February 2014 20:56, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On 06.02.2014, at 21:54, Frank Shearar <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have two machines, both Windows boxes, _one_ of
>>>> which needs swapping switched off to have proper clicks.
>>>
>>> With identical VM settings?
>>
>> Actually, you know, I'm completely mistaken. I must have misremembered
>> the events of last night (when last I fired up an image on my
>> non-weird laptop), because I see now I need to unswap on _both_
>> machines to get sensible mouse behaviour.
>>
>> Sorry for the noise :(
>
> No problem. But the normal way to fix this is changing the VM settings rather than the preference.
>
> We should verify that our VMs do the Right Thing by default though. Right click should generate blue button on all platforms, unless you change from the default settings. The Etoys image does have swap buttons off, so right click is blue and brings up the halos, which is correct for Etoys. Squeak-dev image has swap buttons on, so right click is yellow and brings up the context menu.

I may well be in a minority of one. If I right click, I get halos. In
_my_ opinion, that's completely wrong, and should bring up a context
menu. (In fact, I don't even know how to bring up a context menu
without fixing the buttons.) Because, you know, host OSes have trained
me. But I freely admit to having been trained in the way of Windows,
Gnome, KDE, and (as little as possible) OS X, so I'm content to just
fix the preference in my own images. There are even tests to show that
on Windows the buttons do the wrong things (sorry, I can't resist).

I was, however, completely unaware of any VM settings regarding mouse buttons!

frank

> - Bert -

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Re: two bugs with fonts 4.5-13671

Chris Muller-3
In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg
>> The "simple" cursor is hard to see.  And when you do see it, the
>> flashing is distracting.
>
> I thought we agreed on having first-impressions (out-of-the box experience) be non-distracting. A blinking black vertical line is "normal" in pretty much any modern UI. This is nothing where Squeak should stand out.

Yes, you're right.  Seems like every editor I look at the cursor is a
thin, black vertical bar in a sea of black text.  Like a needle in a
haystack, brilliant!  (not!)

At least it is _not_ flashing everywhere.  Like, right now, typing
this Gmail email, the cursor is not flashing, even when I set it to my
OS preferences.

Flashing-cursor is like the computer "prompting" the user to type
something, when maybe even they only intend to read and not type
anything.  It's annoying and distracting for the software to presume
such.

So, if we go back to vertical bar cursor, I propose we keep the red,
which indicates it's "write" nature  (green=read, red=write) to
alleviate the needle-in-a-haystack problem when you want the cursor,
and leave flashing off so it's not jumping up and down waving its arms
when you don't.

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Re: two bugs with fonts 4.5-13671

Chris Muller-3
In reply to this post by Frank Shearar-3
> I may well be in a minority of one. If I right click, I get halos.

In Windows?  That's the opposite of Linux.  Sounds like the different
VM's are not allowing us to deliver a consistent experience.

> In
> _my_ opinion, that's completely wrong, and should bring up a context
> menu.

In terms of managing new-user expectations, I completely agree.

> (In fact, I don't even know how to bring up a context menu
> without fixing the buttons.)

Middle-click or ESCape key.

> Because, you know, host OSes have trained
> me. But I freely admit to having been trained in the way of Windows,
> Gnome, KDE, and (as little as possible) OS X, so I'm content to just
> fix the preference in my own images. There are even tests to show that
> on Windows the buttons do the wrong things (sorry, I can't resist).
>
> I was, however, completely unaware of any VM settings regarding mouse buttons!

There's one more added complexity -- Blue-Drag and Blue-Zoom, which
modernize Squeak's UI to help user go 100X faster and which I use 1000
times per day, DON'T WORK at all on Linux unless swapMouseButtons is
OFF.

Because of that, a couple of years ago, I had to learn to switch my
conventional use of Red Blue Yellow to Red Yellow Blue.  Which is
fine, now that I'm accustomed to it, so let's not go casually goofing
with it again..!  :-S

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Re: two bugs with fonts 4.5-13671

Herbert König
In reply to this post by Frank Shearar-3
Hi,

you are a minority of at least two, except I knew about the VM setting :-))
This is the first I change.

Cheers

Herbert

Am 06.02.2014 23:06, schrieb Frank Shearar:

> I may well be in a minority of one. If I right click, I get halos. In
> _my_ opinion, that's completely wrong, and should bring up a context
> menu. (In fact, I don't even know how to bring up a context menu
> without fixing the buttons.) Because, you know, host OSes have trained
> me. But I freely admit to having been trained in the way of Windows,
> Gnome, KDE, and (as little as possible) OS X, so I'm content to just
> fix the preference in my own images. There are even tests to show that
> on Windows the buttons do the wrong things (sorry, I can't resist). I
> was, however, completely unaware of any VM settings regarding mouse
> buttons! frank


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Re: two bugs with fonts 4.5-13671

vaidasd
In reply to this post by Nicolas Cellier
Hello,
Yes, it is the case when underscore displayed as a left arrow. It does not related to the size of the window. Attached is the screenshot after End key pressed. Note the place of the cursor. Strangely, after image restart asciiValue 95 is displayed as a underscore character. 


On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 8:18 PM, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote:



2014-02-06 Vaidotas Didžbalis <[hidden email]>:

Hello,

reported two bugs Version 4.5-13671:

0007809: turning off bigDisplay preference does not return to the
previous display settings.
0007810: Cursor is positioned improperly for the underscore character
'_'(asciiValue 95)
Using default preferences paste the string
'__________________________________' in workspace, and press End key.
Cursor is positioned improperly for the underscore character
'_'(asciiValue 95)Bitmap DejaVu Sans, all font sizes. .


Hi,
I could not reproduce 7810, can you be more specific?
Where is the cursor displayed? What's your expectation?
Is it related to the size of the window?
Are underscore displayed as the left arrow?
Could you provide a screenshot?

Thanks
 
regards,
Vaidotas









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Re: two bugs with fonts 4.5-13671

Bert Freudenberg
On 2014-02-10, at 10:42, Vaidotas Didžbalis <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello,
> Yes, it is the case when underscore displayed as a left arrow.

How do you enable the left arrows?

- Bert -




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Re: two bugs with fonts 4.5-13671

Tobias Pape
On 10.02.2014, at 12:43, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2014-02-10, at 10:42, Vaidotas Didžbalis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>> Yes, it is the case when underscore displayed as a left arrow.
>
> How do you enable the left arrows?
>

One (perhaps buggy in nature) way:
put an extended character in the source pane of a browser.
  All _ get arrows.

Best
        -tobias
> - Bert -





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