[update] #10500

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[update] #10500

Marcus Denker-3
10500
-----

Issue 1497: Saving preferences to disk gives an error
Issue 1478: ScriptLoader loadFFI fails with a dependency error
Issue 1437: Bitmap #decompress:fromByteArray:at: not wellformed
Issue 1536: Use Bitmap DejaVu as default fonts


Postscript does:

Preferences removePreference: #automaticFlapLayout;
                        removePreference: #navigatorOnLeftEdge;
                        removePreference: #classicNavigatorEnabled.
                       
StrikeFont installDejaVu.
Preferences setDefaultFonts: #(
                             (setBalloonHelpFontTo: 'BitmapDejaVu' 9)
                             (setButtonFontTo: 'BitmapDejaVu' 9)
                             (setCodeFontTo: 'BitmapDejaVu' 9)
                             (setHaloLabelFontTo: 'BitmapDejaVu' 9)
                             (setListFontTo: 'BitmapDejaVu' 9)
                             (setMenuFontTo: 'BitmapDejaVu' 9)
                             (setSystemFontTo: 'BitmapDejaVu' 9)
                             (setWindowTitleFontTo: 'BitmapDejaVuBold' 12))

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Re: [update] #10500

Adrian Lienhard
Thanks, Marcus!

One step closer to 1.0.

Damien, I suggest not to select FreeType font in the Pharo image  
anymore but keep the Bitmap DejaVu font that comes with the core image  
now. The bitmap font is not that perfect, but apparently the speed  
differs enough. People that prefer the FreeType fonts can then easily  
switch if they like.

Adrian

On Dec 6, 2009, at 14:11 , Marcus Denker wrote:

> 10500
> -----
>
> Issue 1497: Saving preferences to disk gives an error
> Issue 1478: ScriptLoader loadFFI fails with a dependency error
> Issue 1437: Bitmap #decompress:fromByteArray:at: not wellformed
> Issue 1536: Use Bitmap DejaVu as default fonts
>
>
> Postscript does:
>
> Preferences removePreference: #automaticFlapLayout;
> removePreference: #navigatorOnLeftEdge;
> removePreference: #classicNavigatorEnabled.
>
> StrikeFont installDejaVu.
> Preferences setDefaultFonts: #(
>     (setBalloonHelpFontTo: 'BitmapDejaVu' 9)
>     (setButtonFontTo: 'BitmapDejaVu' 9)
>     (setCodeFontTo: 'BitmapDejaVu' 9)
>     (setHaloLabelFontTo: 'BitmapDejaVu' 9)
>     (setListFontTo: 'BitmapDejaVu' 9)
>     (setMenuFontTo: 'BitmapDejaVu' 9)
>     (setSystemFontTo: 'BitmapDejaVu' 9)
>     (setWindowTitleFontTo: 'BitmapDejaVuBold' 12))
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project


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Re: [update] #10500

Damien Cassou
2009/12/6 Adrian Lienhard <[hidden email]>:
> Damien, I suggest not to select FreeType font in the Pharo image
> anymore but keep the Bitmap DejaVu font that comes with the core image
> now. The bitmap font is not that perfect, but apparently the speed
> differs enough. People that prefer the FreeType fonts can then easily
> switch if they like.

ok

--
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http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

"Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
popular by not having them." James Iry

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Re: [update] #10500

Henrik Sperre Johansen
In reply to this post by Adrian Lienhard
On 06.12.2009 15:28, Adrian Lienhard wrote:
> Thanks, Marcus!
>
> One step closer to 1.0.
>    
Humm, better hope new VM versions are out before final release :)
Without the BitBlt fixes, it looks kind of horrible when dragging a
window...

Cheers,
Henry

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Re: [update] #10500

Levente Uzonyi-2
In reply to this post by Adrian Lienhard
On Sun, 6 Dec 2009, Adrian Lienhard wrote:

> Thanks, Marcus!
>
> One step closer to 1.0.
>
> Damien, I suggest not to select FreeType font in the Pharo image
> anymore but keep the Bitmap DejaVu font that comes with the core image
> now. The bitmap font is not that perfect, but apparently the speed

Not that perfect? What's the problem with it? FreeType's anti-aliasing is
crappy compared to BitmapDejaVu.


Levente

> differs enough. People that prefer the FreeType fonts can then easily
> switch if they like.
>
> Adrian
>

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Re: [update] #10500

Henrik Sperre Johansen
On 06.12.2009 19:43, Levente Uzonyi wrote:

> On Sun, 6 Dec 2009, Adrian Lienhard wrote:
>
>    
>> Thanks, Marcus!
>>
>> One step closer to 1.0.
>>
>> Damien, I suggest not to select FreeType font in the Pharo image
>> anymore but keep the Bitmap DejaVu font that comes with the core image
>> now. The bitmap font is not that perfect, but apparently the speed
>>      
> Not that perfect? What's the problem with it? FreeType's anti-aliasing is
> crappy compared to BitmapDejaVu.
>
>
> Levente
>
>    
In my experience, the character spacing can be a bit wonky in some cases.
As well, the rendering method of FuzzyLabelMorphs, as used in some parts
of Polymorph (most noticeably the Monticello browser), does not go well
with them at all.

Other than that, I agree with you that they look just as good.

Cheers,
Henry


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Re: [update] #10500

Adrian Lienhard
In reply to this post by Levente Uzonyi-2
On Dec 6, 2009, at 19:43 , Levente Uzonyi wrote:

> On Sun, 6 Dec 2009, Adrian Lienhard wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Marcus!
>>
>> One step closer to 1.0.
>>
>> Damien, I suggest not to select FreeType font in the Pharo image
>> anymore but keep the Bitmap DejaVu font that comes with the core  
>> image
>> now. The bitmap font is not that perfect, but apparently the speed
>
> Not that perfect? What's the problem with it?
E.g., colon and dot are so small that I sometimes think they are  
missing (do you see the dot on the first line in the attached png?).  
Character spacing is sometimes strange. Its not bad at all, but not  
perfect either.

> FreeType's anti-aliasing is crappy compared to BitmapDejaVu.

What is crappy?

Adrian



> Levente
>
>> differs enough. People that prefer the FreeType fonts can then easily
>> switch if they like.
>>
>> Adrian
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

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Re: [update] #10500

Levente Uzonyi-2
Idézet (Adrian Lienhard <[hidden email]>):

> On Dec 6, 2009, at 19:43 , Levente Uzonyi wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 6 Dec 2009, Adrian Lienhard wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks, Marcus!
>>>
>>> One step closer to 1.0.
>>>
>>> Damien, I suggest not to select FreeType font in the Pharo image
>>> anymore but keep the Bitmap DejaVu font that comes with the core  image
>>> now. The bitmap font is not that perfect, but apparently the speed
>>
>> Not that perfect? What's the problem with it?
>
> E.g., colon and dot are so small that I sometimes think they are  
> missing (do you see the dot on the first line in the attached png?).  
>  Character spacing is sometimes strange. Its not bad at all, but not  
>  perfect either.
>
I guess it depends on your monitor's pixel size, I see the dot clearly.

>> FreeType's anti-aliasing is crappy compared to BitmapDejaVu.
>
> What is crappy?
>

Crappy = low quality.
See the attached image.


Levente

> Adrian
>
>


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Re: [update] #10500

johnmci
In reply to this post by Henrik Sperre Johansen
LIkely someone should confirm it's fixed in the macintosh 5.x series of VMs

On 2009-12-06, at 10:37 AM, Henrik Sperre Johansen wrote:

> On 06.12.2009 15:28, Adrian Lienhard wrote:
>> Thanks, Marcus!
>>
>> One step closer to 1.0.
>>
> Humm, better hope new VM versions are out before final release :)
> Without the BitBlt fixes, it looks kind of horrible when dragging a
> window...
>
> Cheers,
> Henry
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

--
===========================================================================
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Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
===========================================================================





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Re: [update] #10500

Adrian Lienhard
In reply to this post by Levente Uzonyi-2
It seems that with your setup the FreeType fonts are rendered without  
subpixel AA.

I use the Mac VM, I think with the extra BitBlt plugin, and they look  
better.

Adrian

On Dec 6, 2009, at 21:10 , Levente Uzonyi wrote:

> Idézet (Adrian Lienhard <[hidden email]>):
>
>> On Dec 6, 2009, at 19:43 , Levente Uzonyi wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 6 Dec 2009, Adrian Lienhard wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks, Marcus!
>>>>
>>>> One step closer to 1.0.
>>>>
>>>> Damien, I suggest not to select FreeType font in the Pharo image
>>>> anymore but keep the Bitmap DejaVu font that comes with the core  
>>>> image
>>>> now. The bitmap font is not that perfect, but apparently the speed
>>>
>>> Not that perfect? What's the problem with it?
>>
>> E.g., colon and dot are so small that I sometimes think they are  
>> missing (do you see the dot on the first line in the attached  
>> png?).  Character spacing is sometimes strange. Its not bad at all,  
>> but not  perfect either.
>>
>
> I guess it depends on your monitor's pixel size, I see the dot  
> clearly.
>
>>> FreeType's anti-aliasing is crappy compared to BitmapDejaVu.
>>
>> What is crappy?
>>
>
> Crappy = low quality.
> See the attached image.
>
>
> Levente
>
>> Adrian
>>
>>
>
> <fonts.png>_______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project


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Re: [update] #10500

johnmci
Ok, well I've not compiled the freetype plugin for V5.x yet, so whatever is happening it's not using freetype.

Someone will need to decide if the bitblt override plugin should be part of the base system? 

There seems to be lots of confusion about what smalltalk software, which VM version, and if it's using an override BitBlt plugin.  Maybe someone can detail the choices and decide which is the most optimum for Pharo. 

For testing purposes I *believe* you can run the V5.0 VM on powerpc, or on MacIntel set  use 32bit mode in get info. Then included the plugins as shipped with the 4.2.2 VM. You still might need to confirm the 32bit FreeType plugin gets loaded. 

The V5.0 Vm has the latest bitblt changes from VMMaker, but that might be different than the ones in the older BitBlt override. 

On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 12:47 PM, Adrian Lienhard <[hidden email]> wrote:
It seems that with your setup the FreeType fonts are rendered without
subpixel AA.

I use the Mac VM, I think with the extra BitBlt plugin, and they look
better.

Adrian

On Dec 6, 2009, at 21:10 , Levente Uzonyi wrote:

> Idézet (Adrian Lienhard <[hidden email]>):
>
>> On Dec 6, 2009, at 19:43 , Levente Uzonyi wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 6 Dec 2009, Adrian Lienhard wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks, Marcus!
>>>>
>>>> One step closer to 1.0.
>>>>
>>>> Damien, I suggest not to select FreeType font in the Pharo image
>>>> anymore but keep the Bitmap DejaVu font that comes with the core
>>>> image
>>>> now. The bitmap font is not that perfect, but apparently the speed
>>>
>>> Not that perfect? What's the problem with it?
>>
>> E.g., colon and dot are so small that I sometimes think they are
>> missing (do you see the dot on the first line in the attached
>> png?).  Character spacing is sometimes strange. Its not bad at all,
>> but not  perfect either.
>>
>
> I guess it depends on your monitor's pixel size, I see the dot
> clearly.
>
>>> FreeType's anti-aliasing is crappy compared to BitmapDejaVu.
>>
>> What is crappy?
>>
>
> Crappy = low quality.
> See the attached image.
>
>
> Levente
>
>> Adrian
>>
>>
>
> <fonts.png>_______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project


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Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
===========================================================================



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Re: [update] #10500

Stéphane Ducasse
Yes cleaning a bit would be good because with all these numbers and configurations this is not easy
to follow.

Stef

On Dec 6, 2009, at 10:14 PM, John McIntosh wrote:

> Ok, well I've not compiled the freetype plugin for V5.x yet, so whatever is happening it's not using freetype.
>
> Someone will need to decide if the bitblt override plugin should be part of the base system?
>
> There seems to be lots of confusion about what smalltalk software, which VM version, and if it's using an override BitBlt plugin.  Maybe someone can detail the choices and decide which is the most optimum for Pharo.
>
> For testing purposes I *believe* you can run the V5.0 VM on powerpc, or on MacIntel set  use 32bit mode in get info. Then included the plugins as shipped with the 4.2.2 VM. You still might need to confirm the 32bit FreeType plugin gets loaded.
>
> The V5.0 Vm has the latest bitblt changes from VMMaker, but that might be different than the ones in the older BitBlt override.
>
> On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 12:47 PM, Adrian Lienhard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> It seems that with your setup the FreeType fonts are rendered without
> subpixel AA.
>
> I use the Mac VM, I think with the extra BitBlt plugin, and they look
> better.
>
> Adrian
>
> On Dec 6, 2009, at 21:10 , Levente Uzonyi wrote:
>
> > Idézet (Adrian Lienhard <[hidden email]>):
> >
> >> On Dec 6, 2009, at 19:43 , Levente Uzonyi wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Sun, 6 Dec 2009, Adrian Lienhard wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Thanks, Marcus!
> >>>>
> >>>> One step closer to 1.0.
> >>>>
> >>>> Damien, I suggest not to select FreeType font in the Pharo image
> >>>> anymore but keep the Bitmap DejaVu font that comes with the core
> >>>> image
> >>>> now. The bitmap font is not that perfect, but apparently the speed
> >>>
> >>> Not that perfect? What's the problem with it?
> >>
> >> E.g., colon and dot are so small that I sometimes think they are
> >> missing (do you see the dot on the first line in the attached
> >> png?).  Character spacing is sometimes strange. Its not bad at all,
> >> but not  perfect either.
> >>
> >
> > I guess it depends on your monitor's pixel size, I see the dot
> > clearly.
> >
> >>> FreeType's anti-aliasing is crappy compared to BitmapDejaVu.
> >>
> >> What is crappy?
> >>
> >
> > Crappy = low quality.
> > See the attached image.
> >
> >
> > Levente
> >
> >> Adrian
> >>
> >>
> >
> > <fonts.png>_______________________________________________
> > Pharo-project mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
>
>
> --
> ===========================================================================
> John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]>
> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
> ===========================================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project


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Re: [update] #10500

Levente Uzonyi-2
In reply to this post by Adrian Lienhard
On Sun, 6 Dec 2009, Adrian Lienhard wrote:

> It seems that with your setup the FreeType fonts are rendered without
> subpixel AA.
>

Well, this is what's coming out of the box for windows users. I tried
tweaking the preferences and got better results with HintingNormal instead
of the default HintingLight. Btw the preferences for FreeType are broken,
the Preference Browser shows the preferences as enabled even if you
disable them. Opening a new Preference Browser shows the correct values.


Levente


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Re: [update] #10500

Gary Chambers-4
Out-of-the-box the Freetype looks ok on my Vista box, seems like your not
getting the BitBltPlugin override (BitBltPlugin.dll FT"Plugin.dll and
freetype6.dll at the least, maybe also msvcr71.dll). I haven't updated my
windows VM for a while so perhaps the out-of-box is different these days!

As for Preferences, they are like that (the "old" preference browser doesn't
behave well with cross-dependent settings unless special care is taken).

Regards, Gary


----- Original Message -----
From: "Levente Uzonyi" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [update] #10500


> On Sun, 6 Dec 2009, Adrian Lienhard wrote:
>
>> It seems that with your setup the FreeType fonts are rendered without
>> subpixel AA.
>>
>
> Well, this is what's coming out of the box for windows users. I tried
> tweaking the preferences and got better results with HintingNormal instead
> of the default HintingLight. Btw the preferences for FreeType are broken,
> the Preference Browser shows the preferences as enabled even if you
> disable them. Opening a new Preference Browser shows the correct values.
>
>
> Levente
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project 


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Re: [update] #10500

Levente Uzonyi-2
On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, Gary Chambers wrote:

> Out-of-the-box the Freetype looks ok on my Vista box, seems like your not
> getting the BitBltPlugin override (BitBltPlugin.dll FT"Plugin.dll and
> freetype6.dll at the least, maybe also msvcr71.dll). I haven't updated my
> windows VM for a while so perhaps the out-of-box is different these days!

The current pharo vm (PharoVM-Win32-3.11.4) does have FT2Plugin.dll, but
the other dlls are not present.


Levente

>
> As for Preferences, they are like that (the "old" preference browser doesn't
> behave well with cross-dependent settings unless special care is taken).
>
> Regards, Gary
>
>

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Re: [update] #10500

Adrian Lienhard
In reply to this post by Henrik Sperre Johansen
Arg, now I see what you mean by dragging a window looks horrible...  
the whole text disappears.

I'm using a Mac 4.2.2beta1U VM with the extra BitBlt plugin. Shouldn't  
this fix the issue, or is there another problem?

Adrian

On Dec 6, 2009, at 19:37 , Henrik Sperre Johansen wrote:

> On 06.12.2009 15:28, Adrian Lienhard wrote:
>> Thanks, Marcus!
>>
>> One step closer to 1.0.
>>
> Humm, better hope new VM versions are out before final release :)
> Without the BitBlt fixes, it looks kind of horrible when dragging a
> window...
>
> Cheers,
> Henry
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project


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Re: [update] #10500

Henrik Sperre Johansen
http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=1315

http://n4.nabble.com/Integer-overflow-with-BitBlt-rule-20-and-depth-32-td253454.html#a253454

Fix added to VMMaker Nov. 2nd, so unless you have a plugin made after
that, no.

Cheers,
Henry

On 07.12.2009 22:11, Adrian Lienhard wrote:

> Arg, now I see what you mean by dragging a window looks horrible...
> the whole text disappears.
>
> I'm using a Mac 4.2.2beta1U VM with the extra BitBlt plugin. Shouldn't
> this fix the issue, or is there another problem?
>
> Adrian
>
> On Dec 6, 2009, at 19:37 , Henrik Sperre Johansen wrote:
>
>    
>> On 06.12.2009 15:28, Adrian Lienhard wrote:
>>      
>>> Thanks, Marcus!
>>>
>>> One step closer to 1.0.
>>>
>>>        
>> Humm, better hope new VM versions are out before final release :)
>> Without the BitBlt fixes, it looks kind of horrible when dragging a
>> window...
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Henry
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pharo-project mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>>      
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
>
>    


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Re: [update] #10500

Adrian Lienhard
Thanks for the pointer. I've somehow missed this.

Adrian

On Dec 7, 2009, at 22:38 , Henrik Sperre Johansen wrote:

> http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=1315
>
> http://n4.nabble.com/Integer-overflow-with-BitBlt-rule-20-and-depth-32-td253454.html#a253454
>
> Fix added to VMMaker Nov. 2nd, so unless you have a plugin made after
> that, no.
>
> Cheers,
> Henry
>
> On 07.12.2009 22:11, Adrian Lienhard wrote:
>> Arg, now I see what you mean by dragging a window looks horrible...
>> the whole text disappears.
>>
>> I'm using a Mac 4.2.2beta1U VM with the extra BitBlt plugin.  
>> Shouldn't
>> this fix the issue, or is there another problem?
>>
>> Adrian
>>
>> On Dec 6, 2009, at 19:37 , Henrik Sperre Johansen wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On 06.12.2009 15:28, Adrian Lienhard wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks, Marcus!
>>>>
>>>> One step closer to 1.0.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Humm, better hope new VM versions are out before final release :)
>>> Without the BitBlt fixes, it looks kind of horrible when dragging a
>>> window...
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Henry
>>>
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>>>
>>
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>>
>
>
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Re: [update] #10500

Levente Uzonyi-2
In reply to this post by Gary Chambers-4
On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, Gary Chambers wrote:

> As for Preferences, they are like that (the "old" preference browser doesn't
> behave well with cross-dependent settings unless special care is taken).

This is in 1.0rc1 and there's no "new" stuff for preference browsing.


Levente

>
> Regards, Gary
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Levente Uzonyi" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 6:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [update] #10500
>
>
>> On Sun, 6 Dec 2009, Adrian Lienhard wrote:
>>
>>> It seems that with your setup the FreeType fonts are rendered without
>>> subpixel AA.
>>>
>>
>> Well, this is what's coming out of the box for windows users. I tried
>> tweaking the preferences and got better results with HintingNormal instead
>> of the default HintingLight. Btw the preferences for FreeType are broken,
>> the Preference Browser shows the preferences as enabled even if you
>> disable them. Opening a new Preference Browser shows the correct values.
>>
>>
>> Levente
>>
>>
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Re: [update] #10500

Stéphane Ducasse
Sure there is no new stuff this is the old preference mess :)
This is why alain is working like a mad to fix that since 6 months.
Stef

> On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, Gary Chambers wrote:
>
>> As for Preferences, they are like that (the "old" preference browser doesn't
>> behave well with cross-dependent settings unless special care is taken).
>
> This is in 1.0rc1 and there's no "new" stuff for preference browsing.
>
>
> Levente
>
>>
>> Regards, Gary
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Levente Uzonyi" <[hidden email]>
>> To: <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 6:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [update] #10500
>>
>>
>>> On Sun, 6 Dec 2009, Adrian Lienhard wrote:
>>>
>>>> It seems that with your setup the FreeType fonts are rendered without
>>>> subpixel AA.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well, this is what's coming out of the box for windows users. I tried
>>> tweaking the preferences and got better results with HintingNormal instead
>>> of the default HintingLight. Btw the preferences for FreeType are broken,
>>> the Preference Browser shows the preferences as enabled even if you
>>> disable them. Opening a new Preference Browser shows the correct values.
>>>
>>>
>>> Levente
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Pharo-project mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>>
>>
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>
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