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[vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?

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Janko Mivšek
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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?

Janko Mivšek
Have also in mind that Smalltalk apps are "eternal", that is, they are
able to survive really long period of time and specially a big number of
deep changes during the time.

Maybe mentioning of my longest living app can help you a bit: a gas
billing system, surviving 10 years of changes in that industry (let me
mention just EU energy market deregulation). This is the web app on VW
and Gemstone, based on Aida/Web app server. It seems that it will run
for another 10 years without a problem :)

Janko

Rob Vens wrote:

> An approach might also include mentioning that "Why Smalltalk" (or, in
> their case, "Why **not** Smalltalk") 10 years ago might be different
> from now. Smalltalk has changed, is going through a new rise of
> popularity, has cool new frameworks (Seaside, iPhone), etc. I think it
> is necessary to get them to look at the various propositions afresh
> instead of from preconceived ideas, and the suggestion that Smalltalk
> has changed enough for them to look again might work.
>
> 2008/10/6 Dennis Smith <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>
>     We have a potential client (big) who was a client
>     of ours using an old unix/rdbms solution, but went
>     elsewhere for a new system.
>
>     The client is potential now because the "elsewhere" failed,
>     and they had that and themselves (and us) audited by a large
>     consultant.
>
>     They have now come to us and said they want us to provide
>     a solution, but "we don't want Smalltalk" -- they only know
>     we use Smalltalk because of the consultant I suspect.
>
>     Anyway, we have dealt with "Has to be Java", "has to be Oracle",
>     has to be "Windows" etc -- we have never dealt with
>     "anything but Smalltalk".  We use VW and Gemstone.
>
>     I have stuff from the past re "why smalltalk" which we will use,
>     but I just wondered if anyone had any "new thoughts" on how
>     one might answer this type of thing??
>
>     --
>     Dennis Smith                                     +1 416.798.7948
>

--
Janko Mivšek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
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Stevenson, Dave (contr)
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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?

Stevenson, Dave (contr)
The VisualWorks image is itself a testament to long term viability. The last time it was built from source was in the latter part of the 1970's. Since then the image has evolved by a series of live changes to the running system.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Janko Mivšek
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 3:28 PM
To: 'VWNC'
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?

Have also in mind that Smalltalk apps are "eternal", that is, they are able to survive really long period of time and specially a big number of deep changes during the time.

Maybe mentioning of my longest living app can help you a bit: a gas billing system, surviving 10 years of changes in that industry (let me mention just EU energy market deregulation). This is the web app on VW and Gemstone, based on Aida/Web app server. It seems that it will run for another 10 years without a problem :)

Janko

Rob Vens wrote:

> An approach might also include mentioning that "Why Smalltalk" (or, in
> their case, "Why **not** Smalltalk") 10 years ago might be different
> from now. Smalltalk has changed, is going through a new rise of
> popularity, has cool new frameworks (Seaside, iPhone), etc. I think it
> is necessary to get them to look at the various propositions afresh
> instead of from preconceived ideas, and the suggestion that Smalltalk
> has changed enough for them to look again might work.
>
> 2008/10/6 Dennis Smith <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>
>     We have a potential client (big) who was a client
>     of ours using an old unix/rdbms solution, but went
>     elsewhere for a new system.
>
>     The client is potential now because the "elsewhere" failed,
>     and they had that and themselves (and us) audited by a large
>     consultant.
>
>     They have now come to us and said they want us to provide
>     a solution, but "we don't want Smalltalk" -- they only know
>     we use Smalltalk because of the consultant I suspect.
>
>     Anyway, we have dealt with "Has to be Java", "has to be Oracle",
>     has to be "Windows" etc -- we have never dealt with
>     "anything but Smalltalk".  We use VW and Gemstone.
>
>     I have stuff from the past re "why smalltalk" which we will use,
>     but I just wondered if anyone had any "new thoughts" on how
>     one might answer this type of thing??
>
>     --
>     Dennis Smith                                     +1 416.798.7948
>

--
Janko Mivšek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
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jas
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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?

jas
In reply to this post by Dennis smith-4
At 06:54 AM 10/6/2008, you wrote:

>We have a potential client (big) who was a client
>of ours using an old unix/rdbms solution, but went
>elsewhere for a new system.
>
>The client is potential now because the "elsewhere" failed,
>and they had that and themselves (and us) audited by a large
>consultant.
>
>They have now come to us and said they want us to provide
>a solution, but "we don't want Smalltalk" -- they only know
>we use Smalltalk because of the consultant I suspect.


I am reminded of Don Roberts demoing the RB, a decade ago,
and being asked if he could/would do the same thing for Java.
Without hesitation, he replied "I'd rather milk cows".

Ditto.
 
In any case, their claimed prohibition is a sign of fear,
so try to acknowledge that fear, then move past it.

Steer them back to where they really need to be,
which is describing the problem they have,
and any actual constraints on the solution --
as they have mis-characterized one or more constraints.

The real constraint might be "we need X people
on staff with the ability to maintain the system;
we expect to need another Y per year, for Z years",
or "we need response R to a sev 1 within T hours",
or some combination of technical/operational/educational
issues they don't quite know how to define at the moment.

You of course need to ferret these things out
before you can make a realistic bid of ANY kind,
regardless of any underlying technology considerations.

When you've done all you can do to help them define the
solution they're after, make your pitch.

Your pitch; your terms.

And if you can't seem to get past their irrational
need to meddle with the chances of success,
offer to provide them with a list of alternate firms,
-- who may or may not engage in prostitution --
but that simply isn't something you can provide.

See also: "Atlas Shrugged".


Regards,

-Jim Sawyer



 



 



         


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Antony Blakey-2
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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?

Antony Blakey-2
In reply to this post by Dennis smith-4
In my experience, the 'answers' in this thread so far are difficult to  
use because they come from a position of belief. For example:  
arguments about productivity require first that the client has  
absolute faith in you, and given your (presumed) lack of experience in  
the alternatives, they have to make that leap of faith based not on  
reasoning about your experience, but on trusting you personally. As a  
client I would discount all such arguments as being self-serving.

Arguments by example, about systems that are long-lasting or long-
running are not that relevant on their own. The same arguments can be  
made about COBOL systems.

Without knowing the real drivers behind their objection - the  
emotional and political factors driving it, it's not really possible  
to craft a winning argument. You might get lucky, but probably not.

It may be about a sense of security. If the client doesn't know  
Smalltalk then they can feel a loss of control by accepting a  
technology they aren't familiar with. This is an emotional reaction,  
but is well grounded in risk minimisation - by using a mainstream  
technology, they have access to a wider pool of resources. Using  
Smalltalk makes it much tougher because not only is the pool smaller,  
but they are undoubtedly not familiar with how to reach or evaluate  
those particular resources. Furthermore their bargaining position is  
worsened because they have less opportunity to shop around. This makes  
a client feel nervous. It's the reason I buy cars from local  
(Australian) manufacturers, rather than a european import. It's both  
emotional (fear) and rational.

And the consultant may have torpedoed you because they aren't familiar  
with Smalltalk and hence can't (correctly) provide advice or  
recommendations based on experience. Once again, perfectly rational.

It's important to recognize as the first part of this strategy that  
there are real and valid reasons for businesses for whom software is a  
commodity, to go with commodity products, tools and environments. The  
superiority of Smalltalk in a technical sense is an argument that  
falls on deaf ears in such an environment. Especially if they have  
existing IT infrastructure. It makes a lot of sense to standardize on  
a single technology (e.g. MS Windows, .Net, Oracle). I lost a client  
for this reason.

So my advice is to find out exactly why 'not Smalltalk' - don't guess.  
If it's about risk, then you need to focus on the type of risk.

If it's fear of the unknown, then point to your existing solution. I  
got close to pulling a very conservative client over the line by using  
an argument based on the natural evolution of our existing system  
(which wasn't ST) to a superior technology.

It it's fear of a loss of power or resource security, then maybe you  
need to borrow from Cincom and/or Gemstone's marketing collateral, and  
explicitly point to other Smalltalk consultants that the client could  
use if you fell under the proverbial bus. Reassure them that you  
aren't so much of a rare bird, and they could replace you in a  
heartbeat if they wished. Or more likely, employ someone else to  
maintain the system you provide. I did that by getting the client to  
talk to Cincom Australia about access to alternative resources (in the  
end, unfortunately, that client really wanted to standardize on .NET).  
It's contrary to normal marketing strategy (and often personal pride),  
but IME many clients want to know that you are nothing special -  
special == risk.

And if the consultant has torpedoed you, then you're probably SOL.

On 07/10/2008, at 12:24 AM, Dennis Smith wrote:

> We have a potential client (big) who was a client
> of ours using an old unix/rdbms solution, but went
> elsewhere for a new system.
>
> The client is potential now because the "elsewhere" failed,
> and they had that and themselves (and us) audited by a large
> consultant.
>
> They have now come to us and said they want us to provide
> a solution, but "we don't want Smalltalk" -- they only know
> we use Smalltalk because of the consultant I suspect.
>
> Anyway, we have dealt with "Has to be Java", "has to be Oracle",
> has to be "Windows" etc -- we have never dealt with
> "anything but Smalltalk".  We use VW and Gemstone.
>
> I have stuff from the past re "why smalltalk" which we will use,
> but I just wondered if anyone had any "new thoughts" on how
> one might answer this type of thing??
>
> --
> Dennis Smith                         +1 416.798.7948
> Cherniak Software Development Corporation   Fax: +1 416.798.0948
> 509-2001 Sheppard Avenue East        [hidden email]
> Toronto, ON M2J 4Z8              sip:[hidden email]
> Canada         http://www.CherniakSoftware.com
> Entrance off Yorkland Blvd south of Sheppard Ave east of the DVP
>
> _______________________________________________
> vwnc mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

Antony Blakey
--------------------------
CTO, Linkuistics Pty Ltd
Ph: 0438 840 787

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and  
I'm not sure about the former.
  -- Albert Einstein

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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?

marten
In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek
Janko Mivšek schrieb:

> Have also in mind that Smalltalk apps are "eternal", that is, they are
> able to survive really long period of time and specially a big number of
> deep changes during the time.
>
> Maybe mentioning of my longest living app can help you a bit: a gas
> billing system, surviving 10 years of changes in that industry (let me
> mention just EU energy market deregulation). This is the web app on VW
> and Gemstone, based on Aida/Web app server. It seems that it will run
> for another 10 years without a problem :)
>  
 This is nothing special ... you may also find lots of Cobol programs
or perhaps Lisp and Basic programs - at least if you run the
operating system, the program depends on.

 The only way to deal with problems like customer acceptance is
done over a good (customer) price for your Smalltalk project - but
perhaps the productivity of Smalltalk developers are not really
that good - considering the fact of all available reusable libraries for
platforms like .NET, Java and C++ ....

 One should be honest to oneself ...

 Marten

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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?

marten
In reply to this post by Antony Blakey-2
Antony Blakey schrieb:
> In my experience, the 'answers' in this thread so far are difficult to  
> use because they come from a position of belief.
 Well said ....

Marten
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Steven Kelly
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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?

Steven Kelly
In reply to this post by Dennis smith-4
I've written enough in the past about why I love Smalltalk, so I'll
refrain from preaching to the choir. Instead, here are a couple of
thoughts along the lines of what Antony Blakey wrote:
> In my experience, the 'answers' in this thread so far are difficult
> to use because they come from a position of belief.

A useful trick is to imagine you are a .NET or Java shop, and the client
is telling you that you must build the solution in Smalltalk. What?! No
type safety, slow as a dog, ancient, uncool, terrible UI, no job
prospects, can't use your Subversion or ReSharper... Of course these
criticisms vary in their validity, but they certainly exist as
perceptions and have some basis in fact (if only for certain Smalltalks
at certain points in history).

Since at MetaCase we make a tool for developers who use a wide variety
of programming languages, I have to work in many languages: Assembler,
C, C++, Java, Python, C#, Visual Basic, VBScript, JavaScript - all in
the last few years. All of them have their own charm and foibles.
Smalltalk makes good programming the easiest, but as good craftsmen we
should be able to use any tool to best effect. You could always do the
project for them in the language of their choice, and write a Smalltalk
version alongside - I'd guess at only 10% extra of the overall time.

If a second consultant has to pick up where the first one left off, the
main difficulty is normally in understanding the existing code, and the
often unwritten thinking behind it. Average Smalltalk makes that task
easier than average Java or C#; learning the language and libraries is
less of a task, at least if the code is of any size.

Steve

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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?

skrish
Ruby on Rails is just few years off the block and see the contributions it has.. 3750+ plugins from various contributors ranging from the complex to the simplest. Nearly any task that you might want for external access you can start to have a gem to load and work with.. JRuby promises tons of performance improvement over and the benefit of Java deployments, Java integration etc.. Hope Seaside brings in those tons of plugins in the year ahead.. for everything that may be possibly needed..

There are its own pro's and con's, nothing to beat the argument of developers love Smalltalk for its ease, simplicity, power etc.. but we still have to see that adoption happen across even amongst the millions of developers across the world. Is it just a case of being absolutely free to use software.. maybe..

Its going to be tough for Smalltalk to play catch with .Net/ Java or even Ruby in that context. It fits its own niche area, and where it does, tough to argue if anything else will even be able to do it.

I love it and wish it had a hold like any of the mainstream one has, no one questioned its use.. But accept the argument below, you are catering to a market demand, and if the market despite your conviction holds out for anything else, so be it.. but still work on giving them the Smalltalk alternative, prove its value over a period of time and let the customer then accept or still be woolly headed to refuse and you continue to charge more for the .Net/ Java solution. Currently I am moving over to the RoR as an alternative to Smalltalk in demo's and works.. and find its dev cumbersome at larger scales in comparison to Smalltalk, but atleast accepted, still less painful that a J2EE or a ASP.Net..



On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 1:19 PM, Steven Kelly <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've written enough in the past about why I love Smalltalk, so I'll
refrain from preaching to the choir. Instead, here are a couple of
thoughts along the lines of what Antony Blakey wrote:
> In my experience, the 'answers' in this thread so far are difficult
> to use because they come from a position of belief.

A useful trick is to imagine you are a .NET or Java shop, and the client
is telling you that you must build the solution in Smalltalk. What?! No
type safety, slow as a dog, ancient, uncool, terrible UI, no job
prospects, can't use your Subversion or ReSharper... Of course these
criticisms vary in their validity, but they certainly exist as
perceptions and have some basis in fact (if only for certain Smalltalks
at certain points in history).

Since at MetaCase we make a tool for developers who use a wide variety
of programming languages, I have to work in many languages: Assembler,
C, C++, Java, Python, C#, Visual Basic, VBScript, JavaScript - all in
the last few years. All of them have their own charm and foibles.
Smalltalk makes good programming the easiest, but as good craftsmen we
should be able to use any tool to best effect. You could always do the
project for them in the language of their choice, and write a Smalltalk
version alongside - I'd guess at only 10% extra of the overall time.

If a second consultant has to pick up where the first one left off, the
main difficulty is normally in understanding the existing code, and the
often unwritten thinking behind it. Average Smalltalk makes that task
easier than average Java or C#; learning the language and libraries is
less of a task, at least if the code is of any size.

Steve

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Arden Thomas
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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?

Arden Thomas
In reply to this post by Mark Pirogovsky-3
Gartner had a link open to it; I checked it and provided it at Smalltalk
Solutions and ESUG, but they have since withdrawn it.

I am not at liberty to distribute the report (Gartner sells their analysis
and recommendations to companies).

I am seeing if we can get public access to it again.

The table from the Gartner report is in my slides from sts & esug.

Regards

        Arden Thomas

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Pirogovsky [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 2:30 PM
To: Arden Thomas; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?

Can you please provide  the actual Gartner quote or article ?
Or URL to it ?

Arden Thomas wrote:

> Gartner (as of Dec 2007) lists supported Smalltalks as a mature
> choice, which is basically a low risk technology choice.
> They recommend things like porting to the latest release.
>
> Gartner's recommendations are very influential in some companies.
>
> (You can see the advocacy talk slides and video from the presentation
> I gave at Smalltalk Solutions and ESUG on James blog site).
>
> HTH
>
> Arden
>
> Arden Thomas
> Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
> [hidden email]
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Dennis Smith
> Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 9:55 AM
> To: VWNC,
> Subject: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?
>
> We have a potential client (big) who was a client of ours using an old
> unix/rdbms solution, but went elsewhere for a new system.
>
> The client is potential now because the "elsewhere" failed, and they
> had that and themselves (and us) audited by a large consultant.
>
> They have now come to us and said they want us to provide a solution,
> but "we don't want Smalltalk" -- they only know we use Smalltalk
> because of the consultant I suspect.
>
> Anyway, we have dealt with "Has to be Java", "has to be Oracle", has
> to be "Windows" etc -- we have never dealt with "anything but
> Smalltalk".  We use VW and Gemstone.
>
> I have stuff from the past re "why smalltalk" which we will use, but I
> just wondered if anyone had any "new thoughts" on how one might answer
> this type of thing??
>
>  


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Maarten Mostert-2
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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?

Maarten Mostert-2
What you could do is give us the exact title and loose this file on your
children's computer in some p2p shared directoriy.
The other thing that could be done is to negociate copyrights with gartner
and make this report available through cincoms website.
Many compagnies who have a favourable Gartner opinion publish these report
like planview does here: http://www.planview.com/magic

In any way I think that many of us would like to have this report at hand.

Regards,
@+Maarten,


----- Original Message -----
From: "Arden Thomas" <[hidden email]>
To: "'Mark Pirogovsky'" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 2:50 PM
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?


>
> Gartner had a link open to it; I checked it and provided it at Smalltalk
> Solutions and ESUG, but they have since withdrawn it.
>
> I am not at liberty to distribute the report (Gartner sells their analysis
> and recommendations to companies).
>
> I am seeing if we can get public access to it again.
>
> The table from the Gartner report is in my slides from sts & esug.
>
> Regards
>
> Arden Thomas
>
> Arden Thomas
> Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
> [hidden email]
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Pirogovsky [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 2:30 PM
> To: Arden Thomas; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?
>
> Can you please provide  the actual Gartner quote or article ?
> Or URL to it ?
>
> Arden Thomas wrote:
>> Gartner (as of Dec 2007) lists supported Smalltalks as a mature
>> choice, which is basically a low risk technology choice.
>> They recommend things like porting to the latest release.
>>
>> Gartner's recommendations are very influential in some companies.
>>
>> (You can see the advocacy talk slides and video from the presentation
>> I gave at Smalltalk Solutions and ESUG on James blog site).
>>
>> HTH
>>
>> Arden
>>
>> Arden Thomas
>> Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
>> [hidden email]
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
>> Behalf Of Dennis Smith
>> Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 9:55 AM
>> To: VWNC,
>> Subject: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?
>>
>> We have a potential client (big) who was a client of ours using an old
>> unix/rdbms solution, but went elsewhere for a new system.
>>
>> The client is potential now because the "elsewhere" failed, and they
>> had that and themselves (and us) audited by a large consultant.
>>
>> They have now come to us and said they want us to provide a solution,
>> but "we don't want Smalltalk" -- they only know we use Smalltalk
>> because of the consultant I suspect.
>>
>> Anyway, we have dealt with "Has to be Java", "has to be Oracle", has
>> to be "Windows" etc -- we have never dealt with "anything but
>> Smalltalk".  We use VW and Gemstone.
>>
>> I have stuff from the past re "why smalltalk" which we will use, but I
>> just wondered if anyone had any "new thoughts" on how one might answer
>> this type of thing??
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?

Andre Schnoor
In reply to this post by Antony Blakey-2

Am 07.10.2008 um 02:38 schrieb Antony Blakey:

> It's contrary to normal marketing strategy (and often personal pride),
> but IME many clients want to know that you are nothing special -
> special == risk.

Antony, I agree with your analysis entirely (not only the words quoted  
above). This flavor of realism is not seen frequently.

In fact "popular" is the counterpart of "special". Something special  
can never be popular, albeit a popular thing can have special  
properties and advantages over other popular things, which is the point.

That said, I would probably not emphasise on Smalltalk being special,  
but rather suggest an impression of the opposite: A conservative,  
mature, rational and robust work horse that developers tend to fall in  
love with, after they realize they can solve problems more quickly and  
make them mantainable much easier than with anything else (and that's  
the only thing I would point out as "special" in a business context).

Andre

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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?

Dennis smith-4


Andre Schnoor wrote: 
Am 07.10.2008 um 02:38 schrieb Antony Blakey:

  
It's contrary to normal marketing strategy (and often personal pride),
but IME many clients want to know that you are nothing special -
special == risk.
    

Antony, I agree with your analysis entirely (not only the words quoted  
above). This flavor of realism is not seen frequently.

In fact "popular" is the counterpart of "special". Something special  
can never be popular, albeit a popular thing can have special  
properties and advantages over other popular things, which is the point.

That said, I would probably not emphasise on Smalltalk being special,  
but rather suggest an impression of the opposite: A conservative,  
mature, rational and robust work horse that developers tend to fall in  
love with, after they realize they can solve problems more quickly and  
make them mantainable much easier than with anything else (and that's  
the only thing I would point out as "special" in a business context).
Good thoughts -- thanks!!
Andre

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509-2001 Sheppard Avenue East        [hidden email]
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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?

Sattler, Thomas (IT)
I'm wondering if the client literally meant "anything but Smalltalk".  Would COBOL be ok for this?  BASIC?  We could go back to the graveyard of forgotten languages and resurrect Algol,  
BLISS, any number of others.  This just seems like such a silly requirement.
 
 
 
 
Thomas Sattler
Morgan Stanley | Technology
750 Seventh Avenue, 14th Floor | New York, NY  10019
Phone: +1 212 762-1212
[hidden email]
 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dennis Smith
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 5:24 PM
To: VWNC,
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?



Andre Schnoor wrote: 
Am 07.10.2008 um 02:38 schrieb Antony Blakey:

  
It's contrary to normal marketing strategy (and often personal pride),
but IME many clients want to know that you are nothing special -
special == risk.
    

Antony, I agree with your analysis entirely (not only the words quoted  
above). This flavor of realism is not seen frequently.

In fact "popular" is the counterpart of "special". Something special  
can never be popular, albeit a popular thing can have special  
properties and advantages over other popular things, which is the point.

That said, I would probably not emphasise on Smalltalk being special,  
but rather suggest an impression of the opposite: A conservative,  
mature, rational and robust work horse that developers tend to fall in  
love with, after they realize they can solve problems more quickly and  
make them mantainable much easier than with anything else (and that's  
the only thing I would point out as "special" in a business context).
Good thoughts -- thanks!!
Andre

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509-2001 Sheppard Avenue East        [hidden email]
Toronto, ON M2J 4Z8              <A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="sip:dennis@CherniakSoftware.com">sip:dennis@...
Canada			         http://www.CherniakSoftware.com
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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?

Dennis smith-4


Sattler, Thomas (IT) wrote:
I'm wondering if the client literally meant "anything but Smalltalk".  Would COBOL be ok for this?  BASIC?  We could go back to the graveyard of forgotten languages and resurrect Algol, 
Somebody remembers Algol -- my 2nd language -- first was "Fortran"!!

But good thought -- what is the client "really" saying -- I will look into that,
thanks!
BLISS, any number of others.  This just seems like such a silly requirement.
 
 
 
 
Thomas Sattler
Morgan Stanley | Technology
750 Seventh Avenue, 14th Floor | New York, NY  10019
Phone: +1 212 762-1212
[hidden email]
 

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dennis Smith
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 5:24 PM
To: VWNC,
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?



Andre Schnoor wrote: 
Am 07.10.2008 um 02:38 schrieb Antony Blakey:

  
It's contrary to normal marketing strategy (and often personal pride),
but IME many clients want to know that you are nothing special -
special == risk.
    

Antony, I agree with your analysis entirely (not only the words quoted  
above). This flavor of realism is not seen frequently.

In fact "popular" is the counterpart of "special". Something special  
can never be popular, albeit a popular thing can have special  
properties and advantages over other popular things, which is the point.

That said, I would probably not emphasise on Smalltalk being special,  
but rather suggest an impression of the opposite: A conservative,  
mature, rational and robust work horse that developers tend to fall in  
love with, after they realize they can solve problems more quickly and  
make them mantainable much easier than with anything else (and that's  
the only thing I would point out as "special" in a business context).
Good thoughts -- thanks!!
Andre

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Cherniak Software Development Corporation   Fax: +1 416.798.0948
509-2001 Sheppard Avenue East        [hidden email]
Toronto, ON M2J 4Z8              <a moz-do-not-send="true"
 class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="sip:dennis@CherniakSoftware.com">sip:dennis@...
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Entrance off Yorkland Blvd south of Sheppard Ave east of the DVP

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509-2001 Sheppard Avenue East        [hidden email]
Toronto, ON M2J 4Z8              <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="sip:dennis@CherniakSoftware.com">sip:dennis@...
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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?

Sattler, Thomas (IT)
Dennis,
 
My first language was FORTRAN as well.
 
 
 
Thomas Sattler
Morgan Stanley | Technology
750 Seventh Avenue, 14th Floor | New York, NY  10019
Phone: +1 212 762-1212
[hidden email]
 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dennis Smith
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 7:40 PM
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?



Sattler, Thomas (IT) wrote:
I'm wondering if the client literally meant "anything but Smalltalk".  Would COBOL be ok for this?  BASIC?  We could go back to the graveyard of forgotten languages and resurrect Algol, 
Somebody remembers Algol -- my 2nd language -- first was "Fortran"!!

But good thought -- what is the client "really" saying -- I will look into that,
thanks!
BLISS, any number of others.  This just seems like such a silly requirement.
 
 
 
 
Thomas Sattler
Morgan Stanley | Technology
750 Seventh Avenue, 14th Floor | New York, NY  10019
Phone: +1 212 762-1212
[hidden email]
 

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dennis Smith
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 5:24 PM
To: VWNC,
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?



Andre Schnoor wrote: 
Am 07.10.2008 um 02:38 schrieb Antony Blakey:

  
It's contrary to normal marketing strategy (and often personal pride),
but IME many clients want to know that you are nothing special -
special == risk.
    

Antony, I agree with your analysis entirely (not only the words quoted  
above). This flavor of realism is not seen frequently.

In fact "popular" is the counterpart of "special". Something special  
can never be popular, albeit a popular thing can have special  
properties and advantages over other popular things, which is the point.

That said, I would probably not emphasise on Smalltalk being special,  
but rather suggest an impression of the opposite: A conservative,  
mature, rational and robust work horse that developers tend to fall in  
love with, after they realize they can solve problems more quickly and  
make them mantainable much easier than with anything else (and that's  
the only thing I would point out as "special" in a business context).
Good thoughts -- thanks!!
Andre

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509-2001 Sheppard Avenue East        [hidden email]
Toronto, ON M2J 4Z8              <A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="sip:dennis@CherniakSoftware.com" moz-do-not-send="true">sip:dennis@...
Canada			         http://www.CherniakSoftware.com
Entrance off Yorkland Blvd south of Sheppard Ave east of the DVP

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509-2001 Sheppard Avenue East        [hidden email]
Toronto, ON M2J 4Z8              <A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="sip:dennis@CherniakSoftware.com">sip:dennis@...
Canada			         http://www.CherniakSoftware.com
Entrance off Yorkland Blvd south of Sheppard Ave east of the DVP

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Janos
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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?

Janos

Perhaps Assembler...

Janos

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Sattler, Thomas (IT)
Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 2:24 PM
To: Dennis Smith
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?

 

Dennis,

 

My first language was FORTRAN as well.

 

 

 

Thomas Sattler
Morgan Stanley | Technology
750 Seventh Avenue, 14th Floor | New York, NY  10019
Phone: +1 212 762-1212
[hidden email]

 

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dennis Smith
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 7:40 PM
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?



Sattler, Thomas (IT) wrote:

I'm wondering if the client literally meant "anything but Smalltalk".  Would COBOL be ok for this?  BASIC?  We could go back to the graveyard of forgotten languages and resurrect Algol, 

Somebody remembers Algol -- my 2nd language -- first was "Fortran"!!

But good thought -- what is the client "really" saying -- I will look into that,
thanks!

BLISS, any number of others.  This just seems like such a silly requirement.

 

 

 

 

Thomas Sattler
Morgan Stanley | Technology
750 Seventh Avenue, 14th Floor | New York, NY  10019
Phone: +1 212 762-1212
[hidden email]

 

 

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dennis Smith
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 5:24 PM
To: VWNC,
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?



Andre Schnoor wrote: 

Am 07.10.2008 um 02:38 schrieb Antony Blakey:
 
  
It's contrary to normal marketing strategy (and often personal pride),
but IME many clients want to know that you are nothing special -
special == risk.
    
 
Antony, I agree with your analysis entirely (not only the words quoted  
above). This flavor of realism is not seen frequently.
 
In fact "popular" is the counterpart of "special". Something special  
can never be popular, albeit a popular thing can have special  
properties and advantages over other popular things, which is the point.
 
That said, I would probably not emphasise on Smalltalk being special,  
but rather suggest an impression of the opposite: A conservative,  
mature, rational and robust work horse that developers tend to fall in  
love with, after they realize they can solve problems more quickly and  
make them mantainable much easier than with anything else (and that's  
the only thing I would point out as "special" in a business context).
 

Good thoughts -- thanks!!

Andre
 
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509-2001 Sheppard Avenue East        [hidden email]
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href="sip:dennis@CherniakSoftware.com">sip:dennis@...
Canada                               http://www.CherniakSoftware.com
Entrance off Yorkland Blvd south of Sheppard Ave east of the DVP

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Toronto, ON M2J 4Z8              <a
href="sip:dennis@CherniakSoftware.com">sip:dennis@...
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[vwnc] Fwd: Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?

Annick
In my recent experience , what has really an impact is the ability to change the game on the fly, and to move all our classes around, because one always make design mistakes. We changed the inheritance, split classes, extract abstract classes, and still everything works.
But few people understand "refactoring", especially when they don't code.


Début du message réexpédié :

De : "Kazsoki, Janos" <[hidden email]>
Date : 8 octobre 2008 14:31:52 HAEC
Objet : Rép : [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?

Perhaps Assembler...

Janos

 

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Sattler, Thomas (IT)
Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 2:24 PM
To: Dennis Smith
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?

 

Dennis,

 

My first language was FORTRAN as well.

 

 

 

Thomas Sattler
Morgan Stanley | Technology
750 Seventh Avenue, 14th Floor | New York, NY  10019
Phone: +1 212 762-1212
[hidden email]

 

 

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dennis Smith
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 7:40 PM
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?



Sattler, Thomas (IT) wrote:

I'm wondering if the client literally meant "anything but Smalltalk".  Would COBOL be ok for this?  BASIC?  We could go back to the graveyard of forgotten languages and resurrect Algol, 

Somebody remembers Algol -- my 2nd language -- first was "Fortran"!!

But good thought -- what is the client "really" saying -- I will look into that,
thanks!

BLISS, any number of others.  This just seems like such a silly requirement.

 

 

 

 

Thomas Sattler
Morgan Stanley | Technology
750 Seventh Avenue, 14th Floor | New York, NY  10019
Phone: +1 212 762-1212
[hidden email]

 

 

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dennis Smith
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 5:24 PM
To: VWNC,
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?



Andre Schnoor wrote: 

Am 07.10.2008 um 02:38 schrieb Antony Blakey:
 
  
It's contrary to normal marketing strategy (and often personal pride),
but IME many clients want to know that you are nothing special -
special == risk.
    
 
Antony, I agree with your analysis entirely (not only the words quoted  
above). This flavor of realism is not seen frequently.
 
In fact "popular" is the counterpart of "special". Something special  
can never be popular, albeit a popular thing can have special  
properties and advantages over other popular things, which is the point.
 
That said, I would probably not emphasise on Smalltalk being special,  
but rather suggest an impression of the opposite: A conservative,  
mature, rational and robust work horse that developers tend to fall in  
love with, after they realize they can solve problems more quickly and  
make them mantainable much easier than with anything else (and that's  
the only thing I would point out as "special" in a business context).
 

Good thoughts -- thanks!!

Andre
 
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509-2001 Sheppard Avenue East        [hidden email]
Toronto, ON M2J 4Z8              <a href="sip:dennis@CherniakSoftware.com">sip:dennis@...
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Davide Grandi
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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?

Davide Grandi
In reply to this post by Dennis smith-4
Dennis Smith ha scritto:

> They have now come to us and said they want us to provide
> a solution, but "we don't want Smalltalk" -- they only know
> we use Smalltalk because of the consultant I suspect.

My 2 (Euro) cents are for Eiffel : so far from Samlltalk that it
approaches it ... from the other side of the universe.

Object-oriented, portable as C, free for personal use, sound multiple
inheritance and ... nil is a real object !!!
(of a class that is subclass of every other class of the system ...
wonderful !!!)

Best regards,

     Davide
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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?

Niall Ross
In reply to this post by Dennis smith-4
Dear Dennis,

Anthony Blakeny wrote:
 > ... the 'answers' in this thread so far are difficult to
>  use because they come from a position of belief. ...

I think this is sensible and suggestions made from it are good ones.  
However perhaps you are also in a position to present something based on
Smalltalk belief.

Dennis Smith wrote:
 > The client is potential now because the "elsewhere" failed,
 >and they had that and themselves (and us) audited by a large
 > consultant. They have now come to us and said they want us
 > to provide a solution, but "we don't want Smalltalk"

If they have no real commitment to you, just a 'might as well ask them
as well' attitude, then of course you will never persuade them to
Smalltalk anyway.  If, as the above might imply, they do - if, having
been burned they have come to you as someone they feel safer with and
see as more competent - you could make that fact an argument.

 - If you see us as more reliable, more likely to deliver, than the
alternatives, then you should see our preferred technology in the same
light.

Conversely,

 - if you think that you - who are not in our business but in yours -
can judge better than we do what technology is best for us then you
cannot think we are especially competent to do this job;  rather the
reverse.

The argument could doubtless do with a lot of rephrasing to suit the
specific client.  Generally, you could try to use the very fact that
they have come back to you as a fact for discussion.  "You believe we're
worth talking to, so believe we're worth listening to."  (Some
'Smalltalk old believer' arguments that have appeared in this thread
could then be offered as needed.)

HTH
             Yours faithfully
                Niall Ross

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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?

dragoncity

> Dennis Smith wrote:
>  > The client is potential now because the "elsewhere" failed,
>  >and they had that and themselves (and us) audited by a large
>  > consultant. They have now come to us and said they want us
>  > to provide a solution, but "we don't want Smalltalk"
>

If they think like that - then WALK AWAY !!   They will be the biggest thorn
in your side as they will NEVER accept that your Smalltalk solution was really what
they wanted. Neither the Consultant or the Client will be 'onside' with you so you
will be "Pushing S**t Up Hill" the whole project.

Consider that  they will continually call upon your services to 'fix up' things, under the contract for free,
 that are 'not quite right' ie: not like Java or .NET or what ever.

Been there , done that -- its not pretty and very stressful. And could sink your business.

However:
Many years ago I was asked to quote on a VERY specific MS-DOS + D-Base contract, which I did not use as a development
Tool Set, and was not very interested in doing so,
I asked their consultant to some and see my QNX + Sculptor option, he did , he was convinced and returned to the client
to change their minds. 10 Years later the system was still doing sterling service, and the client has been very
satisfied. So get that consultant 'on side' and Maybe, Maybe, you can work with these people -- but I doubt it.

Good Luck





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Cheers,
Brett
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