[vwnc] Beginners impressions...
Locked
[vwnc] Beginners impressions...
 
|
I took a look at VWNC a couple years ago and abandoned it due to a bad first impression. Since then I have heard lots of good stuff about it, so decided to check it out again. I see the same issues that gave me the initial bad impression are still there. These may seem like minor issues, but they are the first things a beginner sees. They are also exactly the type of stuff that more experienced developers would never notice because they just never go there...
For instance, more than half the links on the "getting started" workspace are dead. This was true a couple years ago and it looks like it hasn't changed. Even one of the Cincom links is dead. Also the MyTranscript in the lesson browser does everything twice. For example MyTranscript show: 'Grocery List'; cr; tab; show: 'Milk'; cr; tab; show: 'Eggs'; cr; tab; show: 'Jalapenos'. Produces the following output-- ------ Grocery ListGrocery List MilkMilk EggsEggs Jalapenos ------ I recall it doing that two years ago with a different installation on a different computer, and it's still doing it today. I know these are not important things to those more experienced, and are probably exactly the kind of thing more experienced people would never even notice as they wouldn't be using the lesson browser or clicking links on the "getting started" workspace. But they are the first things a beginner sees, and they don't exactly leave a positive impression. -- This just goes to show that there's nothing an agnostic can't do if he really doesn't know if he believes in anything or not. ~Monty Python _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
Re: [vwnc] Beginners impressions...
|
|
Am 25.10.2009 um 01:19 schrieb Scott Markwell: > I know these are not important things to those more experienced, and > are probably exactly the kind of thing more experienced people would > never even notice as they wouldn't be using the lesson browser or > clicking links on the "getting started" workspace. But they are the > first things a beginner sees, and they don't exactly leave a > positive impression. Suggestion to Cincom: Why not make all educational content web-based (easier maintainable) and just place a single link into the image? Nowadays almost every computer is online and putting a browser and VW window side by side should be just fine (copy/paste example Smalltalk expressions). Andre _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
Re: [vwnc] Beginners impressions...
|
|
Andre Schnoor escreveu:
> Am 25.10.2009 um 01:19 schrieb Scott Markwell: > >> I know these are not important things to those more experienced, and >> are probably exactly the kind of thing more experienced people would >> never even notice as they wouldn't be using the lesson browser or >> clicking links on the "getting started" workspace. But they are the >> first things a beginner sees, and they don't exactly leave a >> positive impression. > > Suggestion to Cincom: Why not make all educational content web-based > (easier maintainable) and just place a single link into the image? > Nowadays almost every computer is online and putting a browser and VW > window side by side should be just fine (copy/paste example Smalltalk > expressions). > This idea at first seems very interesting, but except if you can create a kind of Ant/Cmake/CruiseControl/Make/Nant/SCon or similar script; event the easily maintainable web pages quickly will be out of sync with the look and feel of the tools, examples may start to have slightly different results to those published, etc. Also the 'almost every computer' may be excluding exactly the majority of 'clientèle' of the tutorial as newcomers may be the ones with less resources to access the net just to run the examples/lessons. Given all the changes in VW in the last years I feel that updated training materials are in need. -- Cesar Rabak GNU/Linux User 52247. Get counted: http://counter.li.org/ _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
Re: [vwnc] Beginners impressions...
|
|
> Also the 'almost every computer' may be excluding exactly the majority
> of 'clientèle' of the tutorial as newcomers may be the ones with less > resources to access the net just to run the examples/lessons. Uh ... Since the only way to get VWNC is to download it from Cincom's web site, anyone using it must have downloaded it, and on a fairly fast connection since it is a big download. One can assume they don't somehow lose internet connectivity between the time they download it and the time they try to run it. On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 5:42 PM, Cesar Rabak <[hidden email]> wrote: Andre Schnoor escreveu: _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
Re: [vwnc] Beginners impressions...
|
|
In reply to this post by Cesar Rabak
Cesar Rabak wrote: I have to agree -- I would prefer (for myself if I were to use it ..) to have training and demo toolsAndre Schnoor escreveu: fully in Smalltalk -- I think it gives a better impression too, that you can do all of that in VW. -- Dennis Smith +1 416.798.7948 Cherniak Software Development Corporation Fax: +1 416.798.0948 509-2001 Sheppard Avenue East [hidden email] Toronto, ON M2J 4Z8 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="sip:dennis@CherniakSoftware.com">sip:dennis@... Canada http://www.CherniakSoftware.com Entrance off Yorkland Blvd south of Sheppard Ave east of the DVP _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
Re: [vwnc] Beginners impressions...
|
|
In reply to this post by Thomas Sattler
Thomas Sattler escreveu:
> > Also the 'almost every computer' may be excluding exactly the majority > > of 'clientèle' of the tutorial as newcomers may be the ones with less > > resources to access the net just to run the examples/lessons. > > Uh ... Since the only way to get VWNC is to download it from Cincom's > web site, anyone using it must have downloaded it, and on a fairly fast > connection since it is a big download. One can assume they don't > somehow lose internet connectivity between the time they download it and > the time they try to run it. > You'll be surprised: in one lab I advised for, the download was used for creating a CD and this used to install either in lab's machines as well student's ones, several of which didn't have broadband at their homes or dorms. -- Cesar Rabak GNU/Linux User 52247. Get counted: http://counter.li.org/ _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
Re: [vwnc] Beginners impressions...
|
|
Hi,
As the author of the obsolete and incomplete Introduction still found under Help in VW, I would be happy to cooperate with others in putting together some form of beginners' help / introduction. Ivan Tomek P.S. I am leaving for several weeks at the end of the week so excuse me if you don't get a reply, in case you try contact me. > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf > Of Cesar Rabak > Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 11:09 AM > To: VWNC, > Subject: Re: [vwnc] Beginners impressions... > > Thomas Sattler escreveu: > > > Also the 'almost every computer' may be excluding exactly the majority > > > of 'clientèle' of the tutorial as newcomers may be the ones with less > > > resources to access the net just to run the examples/lessons. > > > > Uh ... Since the only way to get VWNC is to download it from Cincom's > > web site, anyone using it must have downloaded it, and on a fairly fast > > connection since it is a big download. One can assume they don't > > somehow lose internet connectivity between the time they download it and > > the time they try to run it. > > > > You'll be surprised: in one lab I advised for, the download was used for > creating a CD and this used to install either in lab's machines as well > student's ones, several of which didn't have broadband at their homes or > dorms. > > -- > Cesar Rabak > GNU/Linux User 52247. > Get counted: http://counter.li.org/ > _______________________________________________ > vwnc mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
Re: [vwnc] Beginners impressions...
|
|
In reply to this post by Scott Markwell-2
> > One can assume they don't somehow lose internet connectivity
> > between the time they download it and the time they try to run it. > > > > You'll be surprised: in one lab I advised for, the download was > used for creating a CD and this used to install either in lab's > machines as well student's ones, several of which didn't have > broadband at their homes or dorms. Before a long flight, I often download and install software to try out. In any case, if the content is to be put on the web and updated there, it would seem sensible to ship those pages with the installation. Aside from convenience that also solves the problem of content being updated online out of synch with whatever CD people happen to have. Steve _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
Re: [vwnc] Beginners impressions...
|
|
In reply to this post by Cesar Rabak
On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:08:43 -0300, Cesar Rabak <[hidden email]>
wrote: > You'll be surprised: in one lab I advised for, the download was used for > creating a CD and this used to install either in lab's machines as well > student's ones, several of which didn't have broadband at their homes or > dorms. Don't forget about those of us behind corporate firewalls that are password protected -- I've got a VWNC installation I brought in and loaded up on a laptop but haven't had a chance to work out how to get the proxy stuff working so it's effectively a 'no-net' config for now.. which is fine for me since it's a hobby.. _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
Re: [vwnc] Beginners impressions...
|
|
In reply to this post by Scott Markwell-2
I should have responded to this back when it appeared, but it seems that I didn't pay enough attention to the traffic here (in fairness to myself, my wife was just home from knee surgery then, so I had other things on my mind).
To address the main points: 1) The workspace: We overhauled all of that text this release. The links are all live, and the information is up to date. We intend to maintain that stuff more closely from here on out 2) The Lesson Browser: That's old code that should not have been included, and has been pulled from the new (7.7) release. None of that helps with the current NC release, of course, but I thought it would be worth noting. James Robertson Cincom Smalltalk Product Evangelist http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library On Oct 24, 2009, at 7:19 PM, Scott Markwell wrote: > I took a look at VWNC a couple years ago and abandoned it due to a bad first impression. Since then I have heard lots of good stuff about it, so decided to check it out again. I see the same issues that gave me the initial bad impression are still there. These may seem like minor issues, but they are the first things a beginner sees. They are also exactly the type of stuff that more experienced developers would never notice because they just never go there... > > For instance, more than half the links on the "getting started" workspace are dead. This was true a couple years ago and it looks like it hasn't changed. Even one of the Cincom links is dead. Also the MyTranscript in the lesson browser does everything twice. For example > > MyTranscript > show: 'Grocery List'; cr; > tab; show: 'Milk'; cr; > tab; show: 'Eggs'; cr; > tab; show: 'Jalapenos'. > > Produces the following output-- > > ------ > > Grocery ListGrocery List > > MilkMilk > > EggsEggs > > Jalapenos > > ------ > > I recall it doing that two years ago with a different installation on a different computer, and it's still doing it today. I know these are not important things to those more experienced, and are probably exactly the kind of thing more experienced people would never even notice as they wouldn't be using the lesson browser or clicking links on the "getting started" workspace. But they are the first things a beginner sees, and they don't exactly leave a positive impression. > > -- > This just goes to show that there's nothing an agnostic can't do if he really doesn't know if he believes in anything or not. > > ~Monty Python > _______________________________________________ > vwnc mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
«
Return to VisualWorks
|
1 view|%1 views
| Free forum by Nabble | Edit this page |