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[vwnc] Lets have nestable comments (/* */)

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Colin Putney

Re: [vwnc] Lets have nestable comments (/* */)

On 1-Aug-08, at 5:32 AM, Dennis Smith wrote:

>> The advantage of "{ }" or (* *) is that the opening a comment is
>> distinct from closing a comment. This allows the compiler to support
>> nested comments without escaping. If you don't mind escaping nested
>> comments, what reason do you have for preferring single-double-single
>> as the escape sequence over double-double?
>>
> Compatibility with a large existing Smalltalk that already does it.

Already does what? Escaping comments? I don't understand.

The original complaint was that if you have code that looks like this:

self doSomething. "This has no side effects"
self doOtherThing "This does"

and you want to comment it out, you have to double up the quotes
because comments aren't nestable:

"
self doSomething. ""This has no side effects""
self doOtherThing ""This does""
"

With nestable comments, you don't have to change the existing comments
at all:

"{
self doSomething. "This has no side effects"
self doOtherThing "This does"
}"

If we adopted VA syntax, it would look like this:

"
self doSomething. '"'This has no side effects'"'
self doOtherThing '"'This does'"'
"

Ok, that would be compatible with VA, but it doesn't seem to be an
improvement over what we already have. Am I missing something?

Or are you saying something along the lines of, "I'm not interested in
nestable comments, but as long as we're talking about comment syntax,
I propose we adopt the VA syntax to improve compatibility?"

Colin
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Dennis smith-4

Re: [vwnc] Lets have nestable comments (/* */)

The VA syntax starts out just like ours
    "this is a comment string"
however, if you comment something that includes the above string, the " chars inside the comment become '"' and do not take part in
comment handling so the comment is not part of a larger comment.
e.g.
    "outside stuff '"'this is a comment string '"' more outside stuff"
I see two advantages to this
    1. it retains the current simple comment notation for normal comments
    2. its compatible with VA

Colin Putney wrote:

On 1-Aug-08, at 5:32 AM, Dennis Smith wrote:

The advantage of "{ }" or (* *) is that the opening a comment is
distinct from closing a comment. This allows the compiler to support
nested comments without escaping. If you don't mind escaping nested
comments, what reason do you have for preferring single-double-single
as the escape sequence over double-double?

Compatibility with a large existing Smalltalk that already does it.


Already does what? Escaping comments? I don't understand.

The original complaint was that if you have code that looks like this:

self doSomething.     "This has no side effects"
self doOtherThing     "This does"

and you want to comment it out, you have to double up the quotes  
because comments aren't nestable:

"
self doSomething.     ""This has no side effects""
self doOtherThing     ""This does""
"

With nestable comments, you don't have to change the existing comments  
at all:

"{
self doSomething.     "This has no side effects"
self doOtherThing     "This does"
}"

If we adopted VA syntax, it would look like this:

"
self doSomething.     '"'This has no side effects'"'
self doOtherThing     '"'This does'"'
"

Ok, that would be compatible with VA, but it doesn't seem to be an  
improvement over what we already have. Am I missing something?

Or are you saying something along the lines of, "I'm not interested in  
nestable comments, but as long as we're talking about comment syntax,  
I propose we adopt the VA syntax to improve compatibility?"

Colin
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-- 
Dennis Smith                 		         +1 416.798.7948
Cherniak Software Development Corporation   Fax: +1 416.798.0948
509-2001 Sheppard Avenue East        [hidden email]
Toronto, ON M2J 4Z8              <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="sip:dennis@CherniakSoftware.com">sip:dennis@...
Canada			         http://www.CherniakSoftware.com
Entrance off Yorkland Blvd south of Sheppard Ave east of the DVP

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jas

Re: [vwnc] "Lets have "nestable" comments"

In reply to this post by Terry Raymond

At 05:31 AM 7/29/2008, Terry Raymond wrote:
>Maybe it is just me but I would like to be able to comment
>out a group of lines without having to double quote enclosed
>quotes.

+1.

> I think it would be nice to have something like
>/* and */

Yuck - for C, yeah ok, but they were forced into it -
as no single character met the criteria, with tilde and
grave accent the only ones free, IIRC, but neither was
ubiquitous, given the keyboards of the day.

They made do with /**/, as the least yucky thing available.

C-like languages, having copied as much C syntax as they
could, are incented to keep the ugly /**/ things with
everything else.

Not one iota of this applies to Smalltalk.
Less than one, even, cuz we have composable
thumbs, er, selectorThingys. Can pilt-down
man say that? Nope.

>and make them nestable.

Nestable comments - yes - superior idea,
and long overdue.

But using a two character sequence
makes nesting *harder*. Using *two*
two character sequences, mirror-paired,
is harder still. Counting lemma, and
all that.

And pointless, anyway.

"Just make $"'d "comments" nestable."

Easy Peasy.

Not as easy as Brandt's solution.
But nothing ever is.
[ Er, you don't say. Mumble mumble.
Hey - that actually works.
[Doh!]
Thanks John!
]

Still, the "Going nestable" is
the bit that impacts the surrounding
system, so if someone's biting the
bullet, might as well get it right.
At worst, the cost is the same.
"But I expect it would be *far*
easier/cheaper to use "nestable"
quiotes instead."

Regards,

-cstb

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Steven Kelly

Re: [vwnc] "Lets have "nestable" comments"

Smalltalk already has a comment character, ".

Smalltalk already has a convention for nesting: doubling the quote mark, e.g. apostrophes inside strings. This already works for comments too.

VW already has a comment key, ESC ".

Why not just make ESC " and ESC ' work on their respective quote marks so that:

- if there is no selection, a pair of quote marks are inserted and the cursor placed between them

- if the selection is preceded and followed by a quote mark, uncomment it by removing those and replacing any pair of quote marks with a single quote mark

- otherwise, comment the selection by inserting a quote mark before and after it, and replace any contained quote mark with a pair of quote marks

Make double-clicking inside the first quote mark select the whole comment or string, not just up to the first doubled quote mark.

Steve

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jas

Re: [vwnc] "Lets have "nestable" comments"

In reply to this post by jas

O.M.G.

Who wrote this ignorant bit of tripe?

>Still, the "Going nestable" is
>the bit that impacts the surrounding
>system, so if someone's biting the
>bullet, might as well get it right.
>At worst, the cost is the same.
>"But I expect it would be *far*
>easier/cheaper to use "nestable"
>quiotes instead."
>
>
>Regards,
>
>-cstb

You'd need a truly pathological model
to get more than a handful of tests
to pass.

If you were going for sarcasm, it was
poorly written. Just stfu and give
a +1 to steven kelly, already.

The kids these days. ;-)

Cheers,

-Jim

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Arden Thomas

Re: [vwnc] Lets have nestable comments (/* */)

In reply to this post by Travis Griggs-3

I agree with Travis on the simplicity.

Since hilite/ESC/" will create or undo a comment, how about just making it
smart enough to create & undo sub comments as well?

This way we keep the simplicity, yet make it easy for the pragmatic cases
mentioned.

Arden
[hidden email]

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Travis Griggs
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 2:31 AM
To: VWNC List
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Lets have nestable comments (/* */)

On Jul 31, 2008, at 5:58 PM, Colin Putney wrote:

> I wrote:
>>> I think "{ and }" was also a good suggestion.
> On 30-Jul-08, at 7:38 PM, Dennis Smith wrote:
>
>> Why add complexity to the syntax when VA has already
>> done it using " characters by quoting the internal ones in
>> single quotes? No added syntax, a bit of semantic change,
>> and some compatibility among vendors??
>
> The advantage of "{ }" or (* *) is that the opening a comment is
> distinct from closing a comment. This allows the compiler to support
> nested comments without escaping. If you don't mind escaping nested
> comments, what reason do you have for preferring single-double-single
> as the escape sequence over double-double?

I like the simplicity of comments currently. I just have to quote
something. A very natural language type of thing to do. It's a single
shift-char sequence. All of these suggestions, while they solve a
problem I encounter now and then again, do so at the expense of ease
of use for the very common documentation case. I have to do a two-
shift-char sequence and differentiate between lead and end.

--
Travis Griggs
Objologist
"An idea, like a ghost, must be spoken to a little before it will
explain itself." - Charles Dickens

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Terry Raymond

Re: [vwnc] Lets have nestable comments (/* */)

Arden

That would be fine as long a double-click were also smart
enough to select the "real" comment.

Terry

===========================================================
Terry Raymond
Crafted Smalltalk
80 Lazywood Ln.
Tiverton, RI 02878
(401) 624-4517 [hidden email]
<http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com>
===========================================================

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:19 AM
> To: 'VWNC List'
> Subject: Re: [vwnc] Lets have nestable comments (/* */)
>
> I agree with Travis on the simplicity.
>
> Since hilite/ESC/" will create or undo a comment, how about just making it
> smart enough to create & undo sub comments as well?
>
> This way we keep the simplicity, yet make it easy for the pragmatic cases
> mentioned.
>
> Arden
> [hidden email]
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
> Of Travis Griggs
> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 2:31 AM
> To: VWNC List
> Subject: Re: [vwnc] Lets have nestable comments (/* */)
>
>
> On Jul 31, 2008, at 5:58 PM, Colin Putney wrote:
>
> > I wrote:
> >>> I think "{ and }" was also a good suggestion.
> > On 30-Jul-08, at 7:38 PM, Dennis Smith wrote:
> >
> >> Why add complexity to the syntax when VA has already
> >> done it using " characters by quoting the internal ones in
> >> single quotes? No added syntax, a bit of semantic change,
> >> and some compatibility among vendors??
> >
> > The advantage of "{ }" or (* *) is that the opening a comment is
> > distinct from closing a comment. This allows the compiler to support
> > nested comments without escaping. If you don't mind escaping nested
> > comments, what reason do you have for preferring single-double-single
> > as the escape sequence over double-double?
>
>
> I like the simplicity of comments currently. I just have to quote
> something. A very natural language type of thing to do. It's a single
> shift-char sequence. All of these suggestions, while they solve a
> problem I encounter now and then again, do so at the expense of ease
> of use for the very common documentation case. I have to do a two-
> shift-char sequence and differentiate between lead and end.
>
> --
> Travis Griggs
> Objologist
> "An idea, like a ghost, must be spoken to a little before it will
> explain itself." - Charles Dickens
>
> _______________________________________________
> vwnc mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1594 - Release Date: 8/5/2008
> 9:49 PM
>
> _______________________________________________
> vwnc mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

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Steven Kelly

Re: [vwnc] Lets have nestable comments (/* */)

In reply to this post by Terry Raymond

Re: [vwnc] Lets have nestable comments (/* */)

Yes, and the same for strings in single quotes, as I wrote earlier:

http://www.parcplace.net/list/vwnc-archive/0808/msg00013.html

Steve

From: [hidden email] on behalf of Terry Raymond
Sent: Fri 8/15/2008 18:44
To: 'Arden Thomas'; 'VWNC List'
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Lets have nestable comments (/* */)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:19 AM
> To: 'VWNC List'
> Subject: Re: [vwnc] Lets have nestable comments (/* */)
>
> I agree with Travis on the simplicity.
>
> Since hilite/ESC/" will create or undo a comment, how about just making it
> smart enough to create & undo sub comments as well?
>
> This way we keep the simplicity, yet make it easy for the pragmatic cases
> mentioned.
>
> Arden
> [hidden email]
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf
> Of Travis Griggs
> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 2:31 AM
> To: VWNC List
> Subject: Re: [vwnc] Lets have nestable comments (/* */)
>
>
> On Jul 31, 2008, at 5:58 PM, Colin Putney wrote:
>
> > I wrote:
> >>> I think "{ and }" was also a good suggestion.
> > On 30-Jul-08, at 7:38 PM, Dennis Smith wrote:
> >
> >> Why add complexity to the syntax when VA has already
> >> done it using " characters by quoting the internal ones in
> >> single quotes? No added syntax, a bit of semantic change,
> >> and some compatibility among vendors??
> >
> > The advantage of "{ }" or (* *) is that the opening a comment is
> > distinct from closing a comment. This allows the compiler to support
> > nested comments without escaping. If you don't mind escaping nested
> > comments, what reason do you have for preferring single-double-single
> > as the escape sequence over double-double?
>
>
> I like the simplicity of comments currently. I just have to quote
> something. A very natural language type of thing to do. It's a single
> shift-char sequence. All of these suggestions, while they solve a
> problem I encounter now and then again, do so at the expense of ease
> of use for the very common documentation case. I have to do a two-
> shift-char sequence and differentiate between lead and end.
>
> --
> Travis Griggs
> Objologist
> "An idea, like a ghost, must be spoken to a little before it will
> explain itself." - Charles Dickens
>
> _______________________________________________
> vwnc mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1594 - Release Date: 8/5/2008
> 9:49 PM
>
> _______________________________________________
> vwnc mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

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Bruce Badger

Re: [vwnc] Lets have nestable comments (/* */)

In reply to this post by Terry Raymond

2008/7/29 Terry Raymond <[hidden email]>:
> Maybe it is just me but I would like to be able to comment
> out a group of lines without having to double quote enclosed
> quotes. I think it would be nice to have something like
> /* and */ and make them nestable.

If this or any of the alternatives is adopted, it would be good if it
was adopted by all Smalltalk dialects :-)

--
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Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs (SNN)

Re: [vwnc] Lets have nestable comments (/* */)

In reply to this post by Terry Raymond

Re: [vwnc] Lets have nestable comments (/* */)

Especially considering how much cross platform effort is happening right now in the seaside world with squeak, visualworks and gemstone all supporting a number of pieces.

Cheers!

-Boris (via BlackBerry)

----- Original Message -----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
To: VW NC <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sat Aug 16 11:31:49 2008
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Lets have nestable comments (/* */)

2008/7/29 Terry Raymond <[hidden email]>:
> Maybe it is just me but I would like to be able to comment
> out a group of lines without having to double quote enclosed
> quotes. I think it would be nice to have something like
> /* and */ and make them nestable.

If this or any of the alternatives is adopted, it would be good if it
was adopted by all Smalltalk dialects :-)

--
Make the most of your skills - with OpenSkills
http://www.openskills.org/
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Stephen Pope

Re: [vwnc] Lets have nestable comments (/* */)

Hi folks,

Note that C-style /* ... */ are NOT the same as nestable comments
(since a single */ closes all open /* comments).

I used to use { ... } as nesting Smalltalk comments. My compiler hack
is part of one of my old file-in libraries (STP9 or STP12, I think.

If anyone really wants, it's just a few lines of code...

stp

--
Stephen Travis Pope -- Santa Barbara, California, USA
http://HeavenEverywhere.com http://FASTLabInc.com

On Aug 16, 2008, at 1:28 PM, Boris Popov wrote:

> Especially considering how much cross platform effort is happening
> right now in the seaside world with squeak, visualworks and gemstone
> all supporting a number of pieces.
>
> Cheers!
>
> -Boris (via BlackBerry)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> To: VW NC <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Sat Aug 16 11:31:49 2008
> Subject: Re: [vwnc] Lets have nestable comments (/* */)
>
> 2008/7/29 Terry Raymond <[hidden email]>:
> > Maybe it is just me but I would like to be able to comment
> > out a group of lines without having to double quote enclosed
> > quotes. I think it would be nice to have something like
> > /* and */ and make them nestable.
>
> If this or any of the alternatives is adopted, it would be good if it
> was adopted by all Smalltalk dialects :-)
>
> --
> Make the most of your skills - with OpenSkills
> http://www.openskills.org/
> _______________________________________________
> vwnc mailing list
> [hidden email]
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>
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