website maintenance/feedback?

I like where this conversation is going :p Maybe what we really need is to get some ideas out there, put some volunteers in charge, and have a little web get-together and discuss it?

RS

---

From: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Seaside] website maintenance/feedback?
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 10:53:17 -0300
To: [hidden email]

"...As I have previously mentioned, the website needs a better design..."

All...

I not only agree with that, I'm afraid "the hole is deeper".

Actually our community in general needs better branding so marketing so copywriting so design.

Of course that means a website with better design. But the issue is more deep than retouching the website.

Avi's attitude is the kind of thing that creates an opportunity for Seaside.

It could be a chance to start showing people that smalltalkers don't ignore design (and I don't mean in theory).

But the reality is that not much of a difference will happen unless we boldly embrace design from the core (code) to the skin (UI).

Avi... 

if you have screenshots to show that's okay but be prepared for the next thing: people will start to make bold opinions about it (thinking they know what they're talking about even if they aren't designers) and having feedback is okay but, as you probably know, committees trying to design horses end up delivering giraffes because democratically they decided they're "improved"

If you think you can deal with that and make us look better, they I'm curious already

sebastian

o/

On Feb 23, 2011, at 9:59 AM, Avi Shefi wrote:

Julian,
I'm willing to manage the website.
Lately I have been working on a new design mockup for the Seaside website. As I have previously mentioned, the website needs a better design. Hope I'll get to it over the following week and send some screenshots of it.

Regardless of the issue, I have new ideas for Seaside to which I will dedicate some time after I finish some of the currently open issues.


Regards,
Avi.

On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Julian Fitzell <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think I've asked before, but this is a good time to ask again. Is
there anyone in the community who would be willing to volunteer their
services as "webmaster"? It doesn't necessarily have to involve a lot
of work (though I'd love someone to take on the challenge of cleaning
up the site organization), but mostly having responsibility for making
sure these kinds of comments don't get dropped (filing an issue if
appropriate) and that *someone* is doing something about them. We have
a number of people in the community with permissions to update the
site, so some of the effort could just involve delegation to them and
then chasing them up.

Julian

On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 10:09 AM, Andrew Buchan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'm starting to use seaside, and finding most of what I need, but have
> noticed something on the website that needs fixed, not sure where to
> send this to as there is no "webmaster contact" bit, so thought I'd
> post it here:
>
> -------------------
>
> On page: "http://www.seaside.st/documentation"   the menu link to
> "applications" brings you to the page on "debugging"...
>
> Also, the pages talking about seaside 3.0:
>
> http://www.seaside.st/community/development/seaside30
> http://www.seaside.st/seaside30
>
> Could both do with being dated, especially as Seaside is one of those
> things that people might try, leave, and come back to in a few months
> to see if anything has changed, and won't remember what version they
> downloaded.
>
> -------------------
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

_______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Bob,

 

Could you clarify what you mean by different views of the same information? Different components or simply different visual treatment?

 

-Boris

 

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bob Arning
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 9:35 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Seaside] website maintenance/feedback?

 

One question to ask is whether the site needs "a" new design or several. I am of a minority less enamored with design/structure and more interested in full understanding. Would Seaside make it possible to support two radically different views of the same information without needing to do twice the work?

Cheers,
Bob

P.S. I saw this today in a totally different context, but it seems applicable here as well:

http://www.ted.com/talks/malcolm_gladwell_on_spaghetti_sauce.html



On 2/23/11 9:18 AM, Robert Sirois wrote:

I like where this conversation is going :p Maybe what we really need is to get some ideas out there, put some volunteers in charge, and have a little web get-together and discuss it?

 

RS

---

From: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Seaside] website maintenance/feedback?
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 10:53:17 -0300
To: [hidden email]

"...As I have previously mentioned, the website needs a better design..."

 

All...

 

I not only agree with that, I'm afraid "the hole is deeper".

 

Actually our community in general needs better branding so marketing so copywriting so design.

 

Of course that means a website with better design. But the issue is more deep than retouching the website.

 

Avi's attitude is the kind of thing that creates an opportunity for Seaside.

 

It could be a chance to start showing people that smalltalkers don't ignore design (and I don't mean in theory).

 

But the reality is that not much of a difference will happen unless we boldly embrace design from the core (code) to the skin (UI).

 

Avi... 

 

if you have screenshots to show that's okay but be prepared for the next thing: people will start to make bold opinions about it (thinking they know what they're talking about even if they aren't designers) and having feedback is okay but, as you probably know, committees trying to design horses end up delivering giraffes because democratically they decided they're "improved"

 

If you think you can deal with that and make us look better, they I'm curious already

 

sebastian

 

o/

 

 

 

On Feb 23, 2011, at 9:59 AM, Avi Shefi wrote:

 

Julian,
I'm willing to manage the website.
Lately I have been working on a new design mockup for the Seaside website. As I have previously mentioned, the website needs a better design. Hope I'll get to it over the following week and send some screenshots of it.

Regardless of the issue, I have new ideas for Seaside to which I will dedicate some time after I finish some of the currently open issues.


Regards,
Avi.

On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Julian Fitzell <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think I've asked before, but this is a good time to ask again. Is
there anyone in the community who would be willing to volunteer their
services as "webmaster"? It doesn't necessarily have to involve a lot
of work (though I'd love someone to take on the challenge of cleaning
up the site organization), but mostly having responsibility for making
sure these kinds of comments don't get dropped (filing an issue if
appropriate) and that *someone* is doing something about them. We have
a number of people in the community with permissions to update the
site, so some of the effort could just involve delegation to them and
then chasing them up.

Julian

On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 10:09 AM, Andrew Buchan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'm starting to use seaside, and finding most of what I need, but have
> noticed something on the website that needs fixed, not sure where to
> send this to as there is no "webmaster contact" bit, so thought I'd
> post it here:
>
> -------------------
>
> On page: "http://www.seaside.st/documentation"   the menu link to
> "applications" brings you to the page on "debugging"...
>
> Also, the pages talking about seaside 3.0:
>
> http://www.seaside.st/community/development/seaside30
> http://www.seaside.st/seaside30
>
> Could both do with being dated, especially as Seaside is one of those
> things that people might try, leave, and come back to in a few months
> to see if anything has changed, and won't remember what version they
> downloaded.
>
> -------------------
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

 

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

_______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

_______________________________________________

seaside mailing list

[hidden email]

http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

I have to say it’s uncommon to have sites present multiple treatments and letting users choose one they prefer as it leads to double the maintenance and all kinds of other issues. If the structure of the site is to your satisfaction, you can easily adjust the look of it with existing extensions or custom stylesheet in your browser.

 

-Boris

 

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bob Arning
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 9:51 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Seaside] website maintenance/feedback?

 

Both.

Different components, e.g., might support linear vs. hypertext. I often want to know whether I've read everything available (like a book) and that can be quite hard when the data is in some fairly complex tree structure. So, if there are N possible pages on the site, can they be viewed either as a book (perhaps chunked into chapters, but with a clear first and last) or as a tree of arbitrary depth and cross/cyclical linking.

Different visuals: as your email and mine implicitly illustrate, some folks like serifs, some do not. Can a site make that accommodation in a pleasing way?

Cheers,
Bob

On 2/23/11 9:38 AM, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs wrote:

Bob,

 

Could you clarify what you mean by different views of the same information? Different components or simply different visual treatment?

 

-Boris

 

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bob Arning
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 9:35 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Seaside] website maintenance/feedback?

 

One question to ask is whether the site needs "a" new design or several. I am of a minority less enamored with design/structure and more interested in full understanding. Would Seaside make it possible to support two radically different views of the same information without needing to do twice the work?

Cheers,
Bob

P.S. I saw this today in a totally different context, but it seems applicable here as well:

http://www.ted.com/talks/malcolm_gladwell_on_spaghetti_sauce.html



On 2/23/11 9:18 AM, Robert Sirois wrote:

I like where this conversation is going :p Maybe what we really need is to get some ideas out there, put some volunteers in charge, and have a little web get-together and discuss it?

 

RS

---

From: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Seaside] website maintenance/feedback?
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 10:53:17 -0300
To: [hidden email]

"...As I have previously mentioned, the website needs a better design..."

 

All...

 

I not only agree with that, I'm afraid "the hole is deeper".

 

Actually our community in general needs better branding so marketing so copywriting so design.

 

Of course that means a website with better design. But the issue is more deep than retouching the website.

 

Avi's attitude is the kind of thing that creates an opportunity for Seaside.

 

It could be a chance to start showing people that smalltalkers don't ignore design (and I don't mean in theory).

 

But the reality is that not much of a difference will happen unless we boldly embrace design from the core (code) to the skin (UI).

 

Avi... 

 

if you have screenshots to show that's okay but be prepared for the next thing: people will start to make bold opinions about it (thinking they know what they're talking about even if they aren't designers) and having feedback is okay but, as you probably know, committees trying to design horses end up delivering giraffes because democratically they decided they're "improved"

 

If you think you can deal with that and make us look better, they I'm curious already

 

sebastian

 

o/

 

 

 

On Feb 23, 2011, at 9:59 AM, Avi Shefi wrote:

 

Julian,
I'm willing to manage the website.
Lately I have been working on a new design mockup for the Seaside website. As I have previously mentioned, the website needs a better design. Hope I'll get to it over the following week and send some screenshots of it.

Regardless of the issue, I have new ideas for Seaside to which I will dedicate some time after I finish some of the currently open issues.


Regards,
Avi.

On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Julian Fitzell <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think I've asked before, but this is a good time to ask again. Is
there anyone in the community who would be willing to volunteer their
services as "webmaster"? It doesn't necessarily have to involve a lot
of work (though I'd love someone to take on the challenge of cleaning
up the site organization), but mostly having responsibility for making
sure these kinds of comments don't get dropped (filing an issue if
appropriate) and that *someone* is doing something about them. We have
a number of people in the community with permissions to update the
site, so some of the effort could just involve delegation to them and
then chasing them up.

Julian

On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 10:09 AM, Andrew Buchan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'm starting to use seaside, and finding most of what I need, but have
> noticed something on the website that needs fixed, not sure where to
> send this to as there is no "webmaster contact" bit, so thought I'd
> post it here:
>
> -------------------
>
> On page: "http://www.seaside.st/documentation"   the menu link to
> "applications" brings you to the page on "debugging"...
>
> Also, the pages talking about seaside 3.0:
>
> http://www.seaside.st/community/development/seaside30
> http://www.seaside.st/seaside30
>
> Could both do with being dated, especially as Seaside is one of those
> things that people might try, leave, and come back to in a few months
> to see if anything has changed, and won't remember what version they
> downloaded.
>
> -------------------
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

 

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

_______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

_______________________________________________

seaside mailing list

[hidden email]

http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

_______________________________________________

seaside mailing list

[hidden email]

http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Bob,

 

That would largely depend on how close the 2 versions are, not much to do with Seaside even. We maintain about 5 sets of stylesheets for different brands of our application and every change/addition we make involves at least thinking about all of them, which is already more work than thinking about one ;)

 

-Boris

 

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bob Arning
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 10:10 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Seaside] website maintenance/feedback?

 

Hmm... does it necessarily take double the maintenance or can Seaside bring the scale factor closer to 1x than 2x?

General question: how can one take a look at the code behind the site? Is that downloadable somethere? Perhaps this would provide the leverage for exploring alternate solutions.

Cheers,
Bob

On 2/23/11 9:54 AM, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs wrote:

I have to say it’s uncommon to have sites present multiple treatments and letting users choose one they prefer as it leads to double the maintenance and all kinds of other issues. If the structure of the site is to your satisfaction, you can easily adjust the look of it with existing extensions or custom stylesheet in your browser.

 

-Boris

 

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bob Arning
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 9:51 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Seaside] website maintenance/feedback?

 

Both.

Different components, e.g., might support linear vs. hypertext. I often want to know whether I've read everything available (like a book) and that can be quite hard when the data is in some fairly complex tree structure. So, if there are N possible pages on the site, can they be viewed either as a book (perhaps chunked into chapters, but with a clear first and last) or as a tree of arbitrary depth and cross/cyclical linking.

Different visuals: as your email and mine implicitly illustrate, some folks like serifs, some do not. Can a site make that accommodation in a pleasing way?

Cheers,
Bob

On 2/23/11 9:38 AM, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs wrote:

Bob,

 

Could you clarify what you mean by different views of the same information? Different components or simply different visual treatment?

 

-Boris

 

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bob Arning
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 9:35 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Seaside] website maintenance/feedback?

 

One question to ask is whether the site needs "a" new design or several. I am of a minority less enamored with design/structure and more interested in full understanding. Would Seaside make it possible to support two radically different views of the same information without needing to do twice the work?

Cheers,
Bob

P.S. I saw this today in a totally different context, but it seems applicable here as well:

http://www.ted.com/talks/malcolm_gladwell_on_spaghetti_sauce.html



On 2/23/11 9:18 AM, Robert Sirois wrote:

I like where this conversation is going :p Maybe what we really need is to get some ideas out there, put some volunteers in charge, and have a little web get-together and discuss it?

 

RS

---

From: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Seaside] website maintenance/feedback?
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 10:53:17 -0300
To: [hidden email]

"...As I have previously mentioned, the website needs a better design..."

 

All...

 

I not only agree with that, I'm afraid "the hole is deeper".

 

Actually our community in general needs better branding so marketing so copywriting so design.

 

Of course that means a website with better design. But the issue is more deep than retouching the website.

 

Avi's attitude is the kind of thing that creates an opportunity for Seaside.

 

It could be a chance to start showing people that smalltalkers don't ignore design (and I don't mean in theory).

 

But the reality is that not much of a difference will happen unless we boldly embrace design from the core (code) to the skin (UI).

 

Avi... 

 

if you have screenshots to show that's okay but be prepared for the next thing: people will start to make bold opinions about it (thinking they know what they're talking about even if they aren't designers) and having feedback is okay but, as you probably know, committees trying to design horses end up delivering giraffes because democratically they decided they're "improved"

 

If you think you can deal with that and make us look better, they I'm curious already

 

sebastian

 

o/

 

 

 

On Feb 23, 2011, at 9:59 AM, Avi Shefi wrote:

 

Julian,
I'm willing to manage the website.
Lately I have been working on a new design mockup for the Seaside website. As I have previously mentioned, the website needs a better design. Hope I'll get to it over the following week and send some screenshots of it.

Regardless of the issue, I have new ideas for Seaside to which I will dedicate some time after I finish some of the currently open issues.


Regards,
Avi.

On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Julian Fitzell <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think I've asked before, but this is a good time to ask again. Is
there anyone in the community who would be willing to volunteer their
services as "webmaster"? It doesn't necessarily have to involve a lot
of work (though I'd love someone to take on the challenge of cleaning
up the site organization), but mostly having responsibility for making
sure these kinds of comments don't get dropped (filing an issue if
appropriate) and that *someone* is doing something about them. We have
a number of people in the community with permissions to update the
site, so some of the effort could just involve delegation to them and
then chasing them up.

Julian

On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 10:09 AM, Andrew Buchan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'm starting to use seaside, and finding most of what I need, but have
> noticed something on the website that needs fixed, not sure where to
> send this to as there is no "webmaster contact" bit, so thought I'd
> post it here:
>
> -------------------
>
> On page: "http://www.seaside.st/documentation"   the menu link to
> "applications" brings you to the page on "debugging"...
>
> Also, the pages talking about seaside 3.0:
>
> http://www.seaside.st/community/development/seaside30
> http://www.seaside.st/seaside30
>
> Could both do with being dated, especially as Seaside is one of those
> things that people might try, leave, and come back to in a few months
> to see if anything has changed, and won't remember what version they
> downloaded.
>
> -------------------
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

 

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

_______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

_______________________________________________

seaside mailing list

[hidden email]

http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

_______________________________________________

seaside mailing list

[hidden email]

http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

_______________________________________________

seaside mailing list

[hidden email]

http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Bob,

What if the alternate stylesheets were configurable by users from their
browsers, but stored on seaside.st? I could clone your stylesheet and switch
all the fonts to Georgia. Then other users could decide to use BorisStyle or
BobStyle or implement their own, either based on one of ours or starting
from scratch. Seaside.st could track which style was most popular and make
that the default for new viewers (or not). The primary site admin would only
need to provide one functioning stylesheet, so no additional work for him.

With Grease Monkey -
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/greasemonkey/ -
BobStyle can rule on Bob's computer. You can even share your own
custom style on http://userscripts.org/
_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Bob,

On 23 February 2011 16:20, Bob Arning [hidden email] wrote:

So, are alternate styles better supported on the server side or the client?
>From the perspective of "selling" Seaside, is it better to say "Here is how
Seaside can make this happen?" or is it better to say "Switch to Firefox and
load this addon?"

Frankly in the grand scheme of things, alternate style sheet selection
is not high on the list of priorities. My reference to Grease Monkey
was simply to let you know that if you feel strongly about this
functionality you can make it happen now.

I think we're in danger, as Sebastian put it, of committee designing a
giraffe/horse or bikeshedding [1]. As Avi has stepped up and
volunteered to lead the effort we should get out of his way and let
him get on with it.

Nick


1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson's_Law_of_Triviality
_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside