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when can we avoid to have the white theme as default?

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Stéphane Ducasse

when can we avoid to have the white theme as default?

Hi

I checked here in rmod and I realized that NOBODY uses the white theme and I realized that I was not the only one to
get fedup with it. So when can it be not the default one?

Stef
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pharo4Stef@free.fr

Re: when can we avoid to have the white theme as default?

On 03 Apr 2014, at 22:14, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi

I checked here in rmod and I realized that NOBODY uses the white theme and I realized that I was not the only one to
get fedup with it. So when can it be not the default one?

Stef
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jfabry

Re: when can we avoid to have the white theme as default?

In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse

For the record, I am not so happy with the white theme either.

On Apr 3, 2014, at 5:14 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi
>
> I checked here in rmod and I realized that NOBODY uses the white theme and I realized that I was not the only one to
> get fedup with it. So when can it be not the default one?
>
> Stef
> _______________________________________________
> Moose-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
>

---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---

Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

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Tudor Girba-2

Re: when can we avoid to have the white theme as default?

Thanks for the input.

If you say it like that there are little chances of changing anything. The only way we can improve is to know why something does not work. Only when we know the reasons can we start to react properly. So, please do let us know what does not work.

Just because it is about the way something looks does not mean that we cannot have a structure discussion about it.

Please note that I am not saying that the white theme is the ultimate design. It is not. But, to find other means of expressions we have to leave the classic one and build simple things in simple ways. The white theme has a small amount of visual variables which goes hand in hand with the philosophy of Pharo. This is something to nurture, not to push away. If something does not work for a reason then we look at it. For example, when the scrolling did not work, we changed the color. I want to spend the energy in doing that, but I need your input.

Just for the record, I am doing similar usability experiments with people that do not know Pharo upfront, and they seem to have no problem finding their way. So, it is not quite as random as it might appear.

Doru

On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Johan Fabry <[hidden email]> wrote:

For the record, I am not so happy with the white theme either.

On Apr 3, 2014, at 5:14 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi
>
> I checked here in rmod and I realized that NOBODY uses the white theme and I realized that I was not the only one to
> get fedup with it. So when can it be not the default one?
>
> Stef
> _______________________________________________
> Moose-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
>

---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---

Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

www.tudorgirba.com

"Every thing has its own flow"

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Guillaume Larcheveque

Re: when can we avoid to have the white theme as default?

I confirm that I'm always changing the theme. The main reason is that there is no contrast at all.

For the usability experiments with people, I had a teaches on Moose with other INRIA engineers (who doesn't use pharo) and the first comment was that the look is not friendly at all and they had difficulties with it.

2014-04-04 22:13 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:

Thanks for the input.

If you say it like that there are little chances of changing anything. The only way we can improve is to know why something does not work. Only when we know the reasons can we start to react properly. So, please do let us know what does not work.

Just because it is about the way something looks does not mean that we cannot have a structure discussion about it.

Please note that I am not saying that the white theme is the ultimate design. It is not. But, to find other means of expressions we have to leave the classic one and build simple things in simple ways. The white theme has a small amount of visual variables which goes hand in hand with the philosophy of Pharo. This is something to nurture, not to push away. If something does not work for a reason then we look at it. For example, when the scrolling did not work, we changed the color. I want to spend the energy in doing that, but I need your input.

Just for the record, I am doing similar usability experiments with people that do not know Pharo upfront, and they seem to have no problem finding their way. So, it is not quite as random as it might appear.

Doru

On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Johan Fabry <[hidden email]> wrote:

For the record, I am not so happy with the white theme either.

On Apr 3, 2014, at 5:14 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi
>
> I checked here in rmod and I realized that NOBODY uses the white theme and I realized that I was not the only one to
> get fedup with it. So when can it be not the default one?
>
> Stef
> _______________________________________________
> Moose-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
>

---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---

Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

--
www.tudorgirba.com

"Every thing has its own flow"

_______________________________________________
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Guillaume Larcheveque

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abergel

Re: when can we avoid to have the white theme as default?

This is amazing to see how user interfaces are so subjective and hard to formalize. At first, I was not happy with the white theme at all. But now, I find it nicer than the default theme. Unfortunately, I cannot say what i exactly like in the white theme.

Alexandre

On 5 Apr 2014, at 05:42, Guillaume Larcheveque <[hidden email]> wrote:

I confirm that I'm always changing the theme. The main reason is that there is no contrast at all.

For the usability experiments with people, I had a teaches on Moose with other INRIA engineers (who doesn't use pharo) and the first comment was that the look is not friendly at all and they had difficulties with it.

2014-04-04 22:13 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:

Thanks for the input.

If you say it like that there are little chances of changing anything. The only way we can improve is to know why something does not work. Only when we know the reasons can we start to react properly. So, please do let us know what does not work.

Just because it is about the way something looks does not mean that we cannot have a structure discussion about it.

Please note that I am not saying that the white theme is the ultimate design. It is not. But, to find other means of expressions we have to leave the classic one and build simple things in simple ways. The white theme has a small amount of visual variables which goes hand in hand with the philosophy of Pharo. This is something to nurture, not to push away. If something does not work for a reason then we look at it. For example, when the scrolling did not work, we changed the color. I want to spend the energy in doing that, but I need your input.

Just for the record, I am doing similar usability experiments with people that do not know Pharo upfront, and they seem to have no problem finding their way. So, it is not quite as random as it might appear.

Doru

On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Johan Fabry <[hidden email]> wrote:

For the record, I am not so happy with the white theme either.

On Apr 3, 2014, at 5:14 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi
>
> I checked here in rmod and I realized that NOBODY uses the white theme and I realized that I was not the only one to
> get fedup with it. So when can it be not the default one?
>
> Stef
> _______________________________________________
> Moose-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
>

---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---

Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

--
www.tudorgirba.com

"Every thing has its own flow"

_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

--
Guillaume Larcheveque

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Ben Coman

Re: when can we avoid to have the white theme as default?

Alexandre Bergel wrote:

This is amazing to see how user interfaces are so subjective and hard to formalize. At first, I was not happy with the white theme at all. But now, I find it nicer than the default theme. .

Humans are highly adaptable, living "comfortably" from the arctic to the Sahara desert. However we are also _strongly_ influenced by habit. There is often a hump of familiarity to get over to adopt something "better". The really big problem is, that hump is an impediment to drawing in new users. As a society our attention span has never been smaller than today. Smalltalk is enough of stretch for most people. You end up with a double-whammy. So you need to decide whether you set your defaults for newcomers or adepts.

Unfortunately, I cannot say what i exactly like in the white theme

Now that you are over the hump, it can be hard to look back. Perception shifts. To answer that you might need to not-use the white theme for a month.

cheers -ben

Alexandre

On 5 Apr 2014, at 05:42, Guillaume Larcheveque <[hidden email]> wrote:

I confirm that I'm always changing the theme. The main reason is that there is no contrast at all.

For the usability experiments with people, I had a teaches on Moose with other INRIA engineers (who doesn't use pharo) and the first comment was that the look is not friendly at all and they had difficulties with it.

2014-04-04 22:13 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:

Thanks for the input.

If you say it like that there are little chances of changing anything. The only way we can improve is to know why something does not work. Only when we know the reasons can we start to react properly. So, please do let us know what does not work.

Just because it is about the way something looks does not mean that we cannot have a structure discussion about it.

Please note that I am not saying that the white theme is the ultimate design. It is not. But, to find other means of expressions we have to leave the classic one and build simple things in simple ways. The white theme has a small amount of visual variables which goes hand in hand with the philosophy of Pharo. This is something to nurture, not to push away. If something does not work for a reason then we look at it. For example, when the scrolling did not work, we changed the color. I want to spend the energy in doing that, but I need your input.

Just for the record, I am doing similar usability experiments with people that do not know Pharo upfront, and they seem to have no problem finding their way. So, it is not quite as random as it might appear.

Doru

On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Johan Fabry <[hidden email]> wrote:

For the record, I am not so happy with the white theme either.

On Apr 3, 2014, at 5:14 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi
>
> I checked here in rmod and I realized that NOBODY uses the white theme and I realized that I was not the only one to
> get fedup with it. So when can it be not the default one?
>
> Stef
> _______________________________________________
> Moose-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
>

---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---

Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

--

www.tudorgirba.com

"Every thing has its own flow"

_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

--
Guillaume Larcheveque

_______________________________________________
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Tudor Girba-2

Re: when can we avoid to have the white theme as default?

In reply to this post by Guillaume Larcheveque

Hi Guillaume,

Thanks for the feedback. Let's get more concrete. Where is the contrast missing? We had a discussion about scrollbars that I managed to reproduce and these got fixed. What other places miss contrast?

Also, to what actual interfaces were the users exposed (e.g., GTInspector, Nautilus, MoosePanel) and which of these posed problems?

Doru

On Sat, Apr 5, 2014 at 10:42 AM, Guillaume Larcheveque <[hidden email]> wrote:

I confirm that I'm always changing the theme. The main reason is that there is no contrast at all.

For the usability experiments with people, I had a teaches on Moose with other INRIA engineers (who doesn't use pharo) and the first comment was that the look is not friendly at all and they had difficulties with it.

2014-04-04 22:13 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:

Thanks for the input.

If you say it like that there are little chances of changing anything. The only way we can improve is to know why something does not work. Only when we know the reasons can we start to react properly. So, please do let us know what does not work.

Just because it is about the way something looks does not mean that we cannot have a structure discussion about it.

Please note that I am not saying that the white theme is the ultimate design. It is not. But, to find other means of expressions we have to leave the classic one and build simple things in simple ways. The white theme has a small amount of visual variables which goes hand in hand with the philosophy of Pharo. This is something to nurture, not to push away. If something does not work for a reason then we look at it. For example, when the scrolling did not work, we changed the color. I want to spend the energy in doing that, but I need your input.

Just for the record, I am doing similar usability experiments with people that do not know Pharo upfront, and they seem to have no problem finding their way. So, it is not quite as random as it might appear.

Doru

On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Johan Fabry <[hidden email]> wrote:

For the record, I am not so happy with the white theme either.

On Apr 3, 2014, at 5:14 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi
>
> I checked here in rmod and I realized that NOBODY uses the white theme and I realized that I was not the only one to
> get fedup with it. So when can it be not the default one?
>
> Stef
> _______________________________________________
> Moose-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
>

---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---

Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

--
www.tudorgirba.com

"Every thing has its own flow"

_______________________________________________
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--
Guillaume Larcheveque

_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

www.tudorgirba.com

"Every thing has its own flow"

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Tudor Girba-2

Re: when can we avoid to have the white theme as default?

In reply to this post by abergel

It's not quite so. It's just that we are not used to it. But, we can get used to with practice. Let's just start and in a year from now we will be better :).

One way to do it is to talk about principles. For example, one principle I want in a basic theme is to use the least amount of graphical variables it can so that other interfaces that are built on top of it have the freedom to utilize the rest of the variables. Of course, the interface should still satisfy basic usability requirements like finding a piece of information.

Another way to do it is to talk about actual cases that people have difficulties with and look at what can be improved there. So, what kind of information could not be found? What specific actions could not be carried out?

Doru

On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 12:05 AM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:

This is amazing to see how user interfaces are so subjective and hard to formalize. At first, I was not happy with the white theme at all. But now, I find it nicer than the default theme. Unfortunately, I cannot say what i exactly like in the white theme.

Alexandre

On 5 Apr 2014, at 05:42, Guillaume Larcheveque <[hidden email]> wrote:

I confirm that I'm always changing the theme. The main reason is that there is no contrast at all.

For the usability experiments with people, I had a teaches on Moose with other INRIA engineers (who doesn't use pharo) and the first comment was that the look is not friendly at all and they had difficulties with it.

2014-04-04 22:13 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:

Thanks for the input.

If you say it like that there are little chances of changing anything. The only way we can improve is to know why something does not work. Only when we know the reasons can we start to react properly. So, please do let us know what does not work.

Just because it is about the way something looks does not mean that we cannot have a structure discussion about it.

Please note that I am not saying that the white theme is the ultimate design. It is not. But, to find other means of expressions we have to leave the classic one and build simple things in simple ways. The white theme has a small amount of visual variables which goes hand in hand with the philosophy of Pharo. This is something to nurture, not to push away. If something does not work for a reason then we look at it. For example, when the scrolling did not work, we changed the color. I want to spend the energy in doing that, but I need your input.

Just for the record, I am doing similar usability experiments with people that do not know Pharo upfront, and they seem to have no problem finding their way. So, it is not quite as random as it might appear.

Doru

On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Johan Fabry <[hidden email]> wrote:

For the record, I am not so happy with the white theme either.

On Apr 3, 2014, at 5:14 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi
>
> I checked here in rmod and I realized that NOBODY uses the white theme and I realized that I was not the only one to
> get fedup with it. So when can it be not the default one?
>
> Stef
> _______________________________________________
> Moose-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
>

---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---

Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

--
www.tudorgirba.com

"Every thing has its own flow"

_______________________________________________
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--
Guillaume Larcheveque

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_______________________________________________
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www.tudorgirba.com

"Every thing has its own flow"

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Guillaume Larcheveque

Re: when can we avoid to have the white theme as default?

The main problem was the border of each window. For someone who is not aware of every tool, they sometime missed the bottom of a window and they try to click on another one but were still on the previous one (this is just one problem that I remember).

Because my goal was not to experiment the theme, I quickly moved users to the other glamourus theme.

The problem is even bigger when you have a screen of bad quality like my acer laptop where I cannot see the border at all if I'm not right in the axis of my screen.

2014-04-06 8:33 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:

It's not quite so. It's just that we are not used to it. But, we can get used to with practice. Let's just start and in a year from now we will be better :).

One way to do it is to talk about principles. For example, one principle I want in a basic theme is to use the least amount of graphical variables it can so that other interfaces that are built on top of it have the freedom to utilize the rest of the variables. Of course, the interface should still satisfy basic usability requirements like finding a piece of information.

Another way to do it is to talk about actual cases that people have difficulties with and look at what can be improved there. So, what kind of information could not be found? What specific actions could not be carried out?

Doru

On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 12:05 AM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:

This is amazing to see how user interfaces are so subjective and hard to formalize. At first, I was not happy with the white theme at all. But now, I find it nicer than the default theme. Unfortunately, I cannot say what i exactly like in the white theme.

Alexandre

On 5 Apr 2014, at 05:42, Guillaume Larcheveque <[hidden email]> wrote:

I confirm that I'm always changing the theme. The main reason is that there is no contrast at all.

For the usability experiments with people, I had a teaches on Moose with other INRIA engineers (who doesn't use pharo) and the first comment was that the look is not friendly at all and they had difficulties with it.

2014-04-04 22:13 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:

Thanks for the input.

If you say it like that there are little chances of changing anything. The only way we can improve is to know why something does not work. Only when we know the reasons can we start to react properly. So, please do let us know what does not work.

Just because it is about the way something looks does not mean that we cannot have a structure discussion about it.

Please note that I am not saying that the white theme is the ultimate design. It is not. But, to find other means of expressions we have to leave the classic one and build simple things in simple ways. The white theme has a small amount of visual variables which goes hand in hand with the philosophy of Pharo. This is something to nurture, not to push away. If something does not work for a reason then we look at it. For example, when the scrolling did not work, we changed the color. I want to spend the energy in doing that, but I need your input.

Just for the record, I am doing similar usability experiments with people that do not know Pharo upfront, and they seem to have no problem finding their way. So, it is not quite as random as it might appear.

Doru

On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Johan Fabry <[hidden email]> wrote:

For the record, I am not so happy with the white theme either.

On Apr 3, 2014, at 5:14 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi
>
> I checked here in rmod and I realized that NOBODY uses the white theme and I realized that I was not the only one to
> get fedup with it. So when can it be not the default one?
>
> Stef
> _______________________________________________
> Moose-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
>

---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---

Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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--
www.tudorgirba.com

"Every thing has its own flow"

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--
Guillaume Larcheveque

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--
www.tudorgirba.com

"Every thing has its own flow"

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abergel

Re: when can we avoid to have the white theme as default?

In reply to this post by Tudor Girba-2

> One way to do it is to talk about principles. For example, one principle I want in a basic theme is to use the least amount of graphical variables it can so that other interfaces that are built on top of it have the freedom to utilize the rest of the variables. Of course, the interface should still satisfy basic usability requirements like finding a piece of information.

Yes, and I think this makes perfect sense. IOS is moving exactly in that direction

Alexandre

--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
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jfabry

Re: when can we avoid to have the white theme as default?

In reply to this post by Guillaume Larcheveque

Sorry for the delay, I’ve been needing to concentrate on some other things …

Here is a list of concrete things which annoy me in the white theme (today’s download of 5.0). This is all restricted to what I see in the system browser
- text fields for searching and history navigator drop down are without an outline that indicate that these are text fields
- for drop down opening button it's is not clear it’s a button.
- background of the class toggle is different from the buttons.
- it’s not clear that buttons are buttons because the conventional borders around buttons are absent (holds for both the traditional ones as the show source code / show byte code / etc…)

Also, I don’t like that the borders of text fields are gone. I could live with that however. It’s just that when you have a scroll bar in the text field but the content of the text is less than a page, there is white space to the right of the text that is not used and it’s not clear why. This because you don’t see the border of the text field so you don’ t know this is the space of the scroll bar. So it’s like: why does it reflow there, when there are 30 pixels more of white ?

2014-04-04 22:13 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:

> Thanks for the input.
>
> If you say it like that there are little chances of changing anything. The only way we can improve is to know why something does not work. Only when we know the reasons can we start to react properly. So, please do let us know what does not work.

---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---

Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

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abergel

Re: when can we avoid to have the white theme as default?

Hi!

I do not follow the problem with text field. On the test runner, it is obvious to me that there are two text fields.

or do you mean something else? Just wondering

Alexandre

On Apr 6, 2014, at 8:16 PM, Johan Fabry <[hidden email]> wrote:

Sorry for the delay, I’ve been needing to concentrate on some other things …

Here is a list of concrete things which annoy me in the white theme (today’s download of 5.0). This is all restricted to what I see in the system browser
- text fields for searching and history navigator drop down are without an outline that indicate that these are text fields
- for drop down opening button it's is not clear it’s a button.
- background of the class toggle is different from the buttons.
- it’s not clear that buttons are buttons because the conventional borders around buttons are absent (holds for both the traditional ones as the show source code / show byte code / etc…)

Also, I don’t like that the borders of text fields are gone. I could live with that however. It’s just that when you have a scroll bar in the text field but the content of the text is less than a page, there is white space to the right of the text that is not used and it’s not clear why. This because you don’t see the border of the text field so you don’ t know this is the space of the scroll bar. So it’s like: why does it reflow there, when there are 30 pixels more of white ?

2014-04-04 22:13 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:

Thanks for the input.

If you say it like that there are little chances of changing anything. The only way we can improve is to know why something does not work. Only when we know the reasons can we start to react properly. So, please do let us know what does not work.

---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---

Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
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--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

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jfabry

Re: when can we avoid to have the white theme as default?

In other configurations/other tools it can of course look differently. This is why I said system browser ;-) Example is the image below

On Apr 6, 2014, at 8:23 PM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi!

I do not follow the problem with text field. On the test runner, it is obvious to me that there are two text fields.

<Screen Shot 2014-04-06 at 8.21.28 PM.png>

or do you mean something else? Just wondering

Alexandre

On Apr 6, 2014, at 8:16 PM, Johan Fabry <[hidden email]> wrote:

Sorry for the delay, I’ve been needing to concentrate on some other things …

Here is a list of concrete things which annoy me in the white theme (today’s download of 5.0). This is all restricted to what I see in the system browser
- text fields for searching and history navigator drop down are without an outline that indicate that these are text fields
- for drop down opening button it's is not clear it’s a button.
- background of the class toggle is different from the buttons.
- it’s not clear that buttons are buttons because the conventional borders around buttons are absent (holds for both the traditional ones as the show source code / show byte code / etc…)

Also, I don’t like that the borders of text fields are gone. I could live with that however. It’s just that when you have a scroll bar in the text field but the content of the text is less than a page, there is white space to the right of the text that is not used and it’s not clear why. This because you don’t see the border of the text field so you don’ t know this is the space of the scroll bar. So it’s like: why does it reflow there, when there are 30 pixels more of white ?

2014-04-04 22:13 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:

Thanks for the input.

If you say it like that there are little chances of changing anything. The only way we can improve is to know why something does not work. Only when we know the reasons can we start to react properly. So, please do let us know what does not work.

---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---

Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
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--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

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Tudor Girba-2

Re: when can we avoid to have the white theme as default?

Hi,

Thanks for the detailed remarks. This is an excellent step.

As I figured, people have a problem with handling Nautilus. In my opinion, making Nautilus work properly is a class of problems of its own because currently it uses widgets in unfortunate ways. See my comments below.

Are you using other tools where you see problems? Perhaps some GT tools or something Glamour related?

On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 1:40 AM, Johan Fabry <[hidden email]> wrote:

In other configurations/other tools it can of course look differently. This is why I said system browser ;-) Example is the image below

On Apr 6, 2014, at 8:23 PM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi!

I do not follow the problem with text field. On the test runner, it is obvious to me that there are two text fields.

<Screen Shot 2014-04-06 at 8.21.28 PM.png>

or do you mean something else? Just wondering

Alexandre

On Apr 6, 2014, at 8:16 PM, Johan Fabry <[hidden email]> wrote:

Sorry for the delay, I’ve been needing to concentrate on some other things …

Here is a list of concrete things which annoy me in the white theme (today’s download of 5.0). This is all restricted to what I see in the system browser
- text fields for searching and history navigator drop down are without an outline that indicate that these are text fields

It's true. I am not happy at all with how the drop downs look. I could not make it to work properly because it hardcodes too many things and I did not have the time to look at it.

That being said, both text fields are actually clearly indicated due to the text that goes with them. I doubt that people will not be able to find where the field is.

I am actually torn with drawing borders around the text fields. Adding a border around text areas would imply adding borders around lists as well and this will add significant noise. On very few occasions I see problems with having two text fields next to each other. This can happen in the GTInspector when browsing the code in both panes. However, this situation will be solved with a new widget.

- for drop down opening button it's is not clear it’s a button.

Agreed. This is a problem induced by the implementation of the drop down widget. I will try to solve it somehow.

- background of the class toggle is different from the buttons.

Well, that is because it is not a button. It's a checkbox morph. I would not optimize a whole theme just to make this unfortunate choice more fortunate.

- it’s not clear that buttons are buttons because the conventional borders around buttons are absent (holds for both the traditional ones as the show source code / show byte code / etc…)

When you place those button on a white space, it is actually quite clear. The buttons you mention did not receive a particularly happy design:

- the first two represent states that would be better modeled as tabs. I guess this will not happen.

- the last three require some space in between. Just doing this would make things simpler.

Also, I don’t like that the borders of text fields are gone. I could live with that however. It’s just that when you have a scroll bar in the text field but the content of the text is less than a page, there is white space to the right of the text that is not used and it’s not clear why. This because you don’t see the border of the text field so you don’ t know this is the space of the scroll bar. So it’s like: why does it reflow there, when there are 30 pixels more of white ?

Hmm, in what situation did you see this? The scrollbar typically appears when we the text is larger than the area. In that case, the scrolling bar appears as well and it should indicate its presence.

Cheers,

Doru

2014-04-04 22:13 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:

Thanks for the input.

If you say it like that there are little chances of changing anything. The only way we can improve is to know why something does not work. Only when we know the reasons can we start to react properly. So, please do let us know what does not work.

---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---

Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
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---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---

Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

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www.tudorgirba.com

"Every thing has its own flow"

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Uko2

Re: when can we avoid to have the white theme as default?

Just my 2 cents.

I don't have a lot of troubles with white theme usage. Maybe I just got used, I don't know. But it hits my eyes really hard. On the retina display it's better but on an older cinema display that I'm using it really makes my eyes suffer.

So maybe if everything was completely black, I'd be ok with it.

Also please note that I don't like iOS7 design :)

Cheers.

Uko

Sent from my iPhone

On 08 Apr 2014, at 06:47, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

Thanks for the detailed remarks. This is an excellent step.

As I figured, people have a problem with handling Nautilus. In my opinion, making Nautilus work properly is a class of problems of its own because currently it uses widgets in unfortunate ways. See my comments below.

Are you using other tools where you see problems? Perhaps some GT tools or something Glamour related?

On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 1:40 AM, Johan Fabry <[hidden email]> wrote:

In other configurations/other tools it can of course look differently. This is why I said system browser ;-) Example is the image below

<AB.tiff>

On Apr 6, 2014, at 8:23 PM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi!

I do not follow the problem with text field. On the test runner, it is obvious to me that there are two text fields.

<Screen Shot 2014-04-06 at 8.21.28 PM.png>

or do you mean something else? Just wondering

Alexandre

On Apr 6, 2014, at 8:16 PM, Johan Fabry <[hidden email]> wrote:

Sorry for the delay, I’ve been needing to concentrate on some other things …

Here is a list of concrete things which annoy me in the white theme (today’s download of 5.0). This is all restricted to what I see in the system browser
- text fields for searching and history navigator drop down are without an outline that indicate that these are text fields
It's true. I am not happy at all with how the drop downs look. I could not make it to work properly because it hardcodes too many things and I did not have the time to look at it.

That being said, both text fields are actually clearly indicated due to the text that goes with them. I doubt that people will not be able to find where the field is.

I am actually torn with drawing borders around the text fields. Adding a border around text areas would imply adding borders around lists as well and this will add significant noise. On very few occasions I see problems with having two text fields next to each other. This can happen in the GTInspector when browsing the code in both panes. However, this situation will be solved with a new widget.

- for drop down opening button it's is not clear it’s a button.
Agreed. This is a problem induced by the implementation of the drop down widget. I will try to solve it somehow.

- background of the class toggle is different from the buttons.
Well, that is because it is not a button. It's a checkbox morph. I would not optimize a whole theme just to make this unfortunate choice more fortunate.

- it’s not clear that buttons are buttons because the conventional borders around buttons are absent (holds for both the traditional ones as the show source code / show byte code / etc…)

When you place those button on a white space, it is actually quite clear. The buttons you mention did not receive a particularly happy design:
- the first two represent states that would be better modeled as tabs. I guess this will not happen.

- the last three require some space in between. Just doing this would make things simpler.

Also, I don’t like that the borders of text fields are gone. I could live with that however. It’s just that when you have a scroll bar in the text field but the content of the text is less than a page, there is white space to the right of the text that is not used and it’s not clear why. This because you don’t see the border of the text field so you don’ t know this is the space of the scroll bar. So it’s like: why does it reflow there, when there are 30 pixels more of white ?

Hmm, in what situation did you see this? The scrollbar typically appears when we the text is larger than the area. In that case, the scrolling bar appears as well and it should indicate its presence.

Cheers,
Doru

2014-04-04 22:13 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:

Thanks for the input.

If you say it like that there are little chances of changing anything. The only way we can improve is to know why something does not work. Only when we know the reasons can we start to react properly. So, please do let us know what does not work.

---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---

Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---

Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

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Tudor Girba-2

Re: when can we avoid to have the white theme as default?

In reply to this post by Guillaume Larcheveque

Hi Guillaume,

Thanks.

The contrast of the gray was reported before and I thought that we solved it by making the gray a bit darker. Finding this problem depends on the screen, and given that you have a less performant screen, could you please do the following experiment?

Experiment: pick from the following picture the lightest gray that you see and then send back the number of the model (you can easily do this in GTInspector)

view := ROMondrianViewBuilder new.

view shape rectangle

withoutBorder; width: 400; height: 1; fillColor: [ :each | Color gray: each ].

view nodes: (1 to: 0 by: -0.01).

view verticalLineLayout gapSize: 10.

view

Doru

On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 9:10 AM, Guillaume Larcheveque <[hidden email]> wrote:

The main problem was the border of each window. For someone who is not aware of every tool, they sometime missed the bottom of a window and they try to click on another one but were still on the previous one (this is just one problem that I remember).

Because my goal was not to experiment the theme, I quickly moved users to the other glamourus theme.

The problem is even bigger when you have a screen of bad quality like my acer laptop where I cannot see the border at all if I'm not right in the axis of my screen.

2014-04-06 8:33 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:

It's not quite so. It's just that we are not used to it. But, we can get used to with practice. Let's just start and in a year from now we will be better :).

One way to do it is to talk about principles. For example, one principle I want in a basic theme is to use the least amount of graphical variables it can so that other interfaces that are built on top of it have the freedom to utilize the rest of the variables. Of course, the interface should still satisfy basic usability requirements like finding a piece of information.

Another way to do it is to talk about actual cases that people have difficulties with and look at what can be improved there. So, what kind of information could not be found? What specific actions could not be carried out?

Doru

On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 12:05 AM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:

This is amazing to see how user interfaces are so subjective and hard to formalize. At first, I was not happy with the white theme at all. But now, I find it nicer than the default theme. Unfortunately, I cannot say what i exactly like in the white theme.

Alexandre

On 5 Apr 2014, at 05:42, Guillaume Larcheveque <[hidden email]> wrote:

I confirm that I'm always changing the theme. The main reason is that there is no contrast at all.

For the usability experiments with people, I had a teaches on Moose with other INRIA engineers (who doesn't use pharo) and the first comment was that the look is not friendly at all and they had difficulties with it.

2014-04-04 22:13 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:

Thanks for the input.

If you say it like that there are little chances of changing anything. The only way we can improve is to know why something does not work. Only when we know the reasons can we start to react properly. So, please do let us know what does not work.

Just because it is about the way something looks does not mean that we cannot have a structure discussion about it.

Please note that I am not saying that the white theme is the ultimate design. It is not. But, to find other means of expressions we have to leave the classic one and build simple things in simple ways. The white theme has a small amount of visual variables which goes hand in hand with the philosophy of Pharo. This is something to nurture, not to push away. If something does not work for a reason then we look at it. For example, when the scrolling did not work, we changed the color. I want to spend the energy in doing that, but I need your input.

Just for the record, I am doing similar usability experiments with people that do not know Pharo upfront, and they seem to have no problem finding their way. So, it is not quite as random as it might appear.

Doru

On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Johan Fabry <[hidden email]> wrote:

For the record, I am not so happy with the white theme either.

On Apr 3, 2014, at 5:14 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi
>
> I checked here in rmod and I realized that NOBODY uses the white theme and I realized that I was not the only one to
> get fedup with it. So when can it be not the default one?
>
> Stef
> _______________________________________________
> Moose-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
>

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Guillaume Larcheveque

Re: when can we avoid to have the white theme as default?

when I'm perfectly in the axis: 0.96

when I'm not in the axis: 0.8699999999

However lines have twice the height of the border so it' easier to see.

I can understand that you want to have the less intrusive theme to put forward vizualisations but in my opinion at least the window that have focus should have more colors and contrast.

2014-04-08 7:02 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:

Hi Guillaume,

Thanks.

The contrast of the gray was reported before and I thought that we solved it by making the gray a bit darker. Finding this problem depends on the screen, and given that you have a less performant screen, could you please do the following experiment?

Experiment: pick from the following picture the lightest gray that you see and then send back the number of the model (you can easily do this in GTInspector)

view := ROMondrianViewBuilder new.

view shape rectangle
withoutBorder; width: 400; height: 1; fillColor: [ :each | Color gray: each ].
view nodes: (1 to: 0 by: -0.01).
view verticalLineLayout gapSize: 10.

view

Doru

On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 9:10 AM, Guillaume Larcheveque <[hidden email]> wrote:

The main problem was the border of each window. For someone who is not aware of every tool, they sometime missed the bottom of a window and they try to click on another one but were still on the previous one (this is just one problem that I remember).

Because my goal was not to experiment the theme, I quickly moved users to the other glamourus theme.

The problem is even bigger when you have a screen of bad quality like my acer laptop where I cannot see the border at all if I'm not right in the axis of my screen.

2014-04-06 8:33 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:

It's not quite so. It's just that we are not used to it. But, we can get used to with practice. Let's just start and in a year from now we will be better :).

One way to do it is to talk about principles. For example, one principle I want in a basic theme is to use the least amount of graphical variables it can so that other interfaces that are built on top of it have the freedom to utilize the rest of the variables. Of course, the interface should still satisfy basic usability requirements like finding a piece of information.

Another way to do it is to talk about actual cases that people have difficulties with and look at what can be improved there. So, what kind of information could not be found? What specific actions could not be carried out?

Doru

On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 12:05 AM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:

This is amazing to see how user interfaces are so subjective and hard to formalize. At first, I was not happy with the white theme at all. But now, I find it nicer than the default theme. Unfortunately, I cannot say what i exactly like in the white theme.

Alexandre

On 5 Apr 2014, at 05:42, Guillaume Larcheveque <[hidden email]> wrote:

I confirm that I'm always changing the theme. The main reason is that there is no contrast at all.

For the usability experiments with people, I had a teaches on Moose with other INRIA engineers (who doesn't use pharo) and the first comment was that the look is not friendly at all and they had difficulties with it.

2014-04-04 22:13 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:

Thanks for the input.

If you say it like that there are little chances of changing anything. The only way we can improve is to know why something does not work. Only when we know the reasons can we start to react properly. So, please do let us know what does not work.

Just because it is about the way something looks does not mean that we cannot have a structure discussion about it.

Please note that I am not saying that the white theme is the ultimate design. It is not. But, to find other means of expressions we have to leave the classic one and build simple things in simple ways. The white theme has a small amount of visual variables which goes hand in hand with the philosophy of Pharo. This is something to nurture, not to push away. If something does not work for a reason then we look at it. For example, when the scrolling did not work, we changed the color. I want to spend the energy in doing that, but I need your input.

Just for the record, I am doing similar usability experiments with people that do not know Pharo upfront, and they seem to have no problem finding their way. So, it is not quite as random as it might appear.

Doru

On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Johan Fabry <[hidden email]> wrote:

For the record, I am not so happy with the white theme either.

On Apr 3, 2014, at 5:14 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi
>
> I checked here in rmod and I realized that NOBODY uses the white theme and I realized that I was not the only one to
> get fedup with it. So when can it be not the default one?
>
> Stef
> _______________________________________________
> Moose-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
>

---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---

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PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

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[hidden email]
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--
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"Every thing has its own flow"

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kilon.alios

Re: when can we avoid to have the white theme as default?

Another big hater of the white theme in moose and pharo here. I can barely see those text fields , I have spoken here about my problem with scrollbars too, I have to really look intense and its tiresome and makes the usage hard for me. I already agree with most of points people have made. I was never comfortable with light themes, the ideal for me would be a dark theme but of course cause I took a look at Pharo theme classes and tried to make my own dark theme I realized the painful way that's easier said than done.

On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 9:21 AM, Guillaume Larcheveque <[hidden email]> wrote:

when I'm perfectly in the axis: 0.96

when I'm not in the axis: 0.8699999999

However lines have twice the height of the border so it' easier to see.

I can understand that you want to have the less intrusive theme to put forward vizualisations but in my opinion at least the window that have focus should have more colors and contrast.

2014-04-08 7:02 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:

Hi Guillaume,

Thanks.

The contrast of the gray was reported before and I thought that we solved it by making the gray a bit darker. Finding this problem depends on the screen, and given that you have a less performant screen, could you please do the following experiment?

Experiment: pick from the following picture the lightest gray that you see and then send back the number of the model (you can easily do this in GTInspector)

view := ROMondrianViewBuilder new.

view shape rectangle
withoutBorder; width: 400; height: 1; fillColor: [ :each | Color gray: each ].
view nodes: (1 to: 0 by: -0.01).
view verticalLineLayout gapSize: 10.

view

Doru

On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 9:10 AM, Guillaume Larcheveque <[hidden email]> wrote:

The main problem was the border of each window. For someone who is not aware of every tool, they sometime missed the bottom of a window and they try to click on another one but were still on the previous one (this is just one problem that I remember).

Because my goal was not to experiment the theme, I quickly moved users to the other glamourus theme.

The problem is even bigger when you have a screen of bad quality like my acer laptop where I cannot see the border at all if I'm not right in the axis of my screen.

2014-04-06 8:33 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:

It's not quite so. It's just that we are not used to it. But, we can get used to with practice. Let's just start and in a year from now we will be better :).

One way to do it is to talk about principles. For example, one principle I want in a basic theme is to use the least amount of graphical variables it can so that other interfaces that are built on top of it have the freedom to utilize the rest of the variables. Of course, the interface should still satisfy basic usability requirements like finding a piece of information.

Another way to do it is to talk about actual cases that people have difficulties with and look at what can be improved there. So, what kind of information could not be found? What specific actions could not be carried out?

Doru

On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 12:05 AM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:

This is amazing to see how user interfaces are so subjective and hard to formalize. At first, I was not happy with the white theme at all. But now, I find it nicer than the default theme. Unfortunately, I cannot say what i exactly like in the white theme.

Alexandre

On 5 Apr 2014, at 05:42, Guillaume Larcheveque <[hidden email]> wrote:

I confirm that I'm always changing the theme. The main reason is that there is no contrast at all.

For the usability experiments with people, I had a teaches on Moose with other INRIA engineers (who doesn't use pharo) and the first comment was that the look is not friendly at all and they had difficulties with it.

2014-04-04 22:13 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:

Thanks for the input.

If you say it like that there are little chances of changing anything. The only way we can improve is to know why something does not work. Only when we know the reasons can we start to react properly. So, please do let us know what does not work.

Just because it is about the way something looks does not mean that we cannot have a structure discussion about it.

Please note that I am not saying that the white theme is the ultimate design. It is not. But, to find other means of expressions we have to leave the classic one and build simple things in simple ways. The white theme has a small amount of visual variables which goes hand in hand with the philosophy of Pharo. This is something to nurture, not to push away. If something does not work for a reason then we look at it. For example, when the scrolling did not work, we changed the color. I want to spend the energy in doing that, but I need your input.

Just for the record, I am doing similar usability experiments with people that do not know Pharo upfront, and they seem to have no problem finding their way. So, it is not quite as random as it might appear.

Doru

On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Johan Fabry <[hidden email]> wrote:

For the record, I am not so happy with the white theme either.

On Apr 3, 2014, at 5:14 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi
>
> I checked here in rmod and I realized that NOBODY uses the white theme and I realized that I was not the only one to
> get fedup with it. So when can it be not the default one?
>
> Stef
> _______________________________________________
> Moose-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
>

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PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

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Tudor Girba-2

Re: when can we avoid to have the white theme as default?

In reply to this post by Guillaume Larcheveque

Hmm. The gray in the whitetheme is 0.862.

Can you try to change the following method to something like:

GLMWhitespaceTheme>>lightBaseColor

^ Color gray: 0.8

or lower values?

Doru

On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 8:21 AM, Guillaume Larcheveque <[hidden email]> wrote:

when I'm perfectly in the axis: 0.96

when I'm not in the axis: 0.8699999999

However lines have twice the height of the border so it' easier to see.

I can understand that you want to have the less intrusive theme to put forward vizualisations but in my opinion at least the window that have focus should have more colors and contrast.

2014-04-08 7:02 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:

Hi Guillaume,

Thanks.

The contrast of the gray was reported before and I thought that we solved it by making the gray a bit darker. Finding this problem depends on the screen, and given that you have a less performant screen, could you please do the following experiment?

Experiment: pick from the following picture the lightest gray that you see and then send back the number of the model (you can easily do this in GTInspector)

view := ROMondrianViewBuilder new.

view shape rectangle
withoutBorder; width: 400; height: 1; fillColor: [ :each | Color gray: each ].
view nodes: (1 to: 0 by: -0.01).
view verticalLineLayout gapSize: 10.

view

Doru

On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 9:10 AM, Guillaume Larcheveque <[hidden email]> wrote:

The main problem was the border of each window. For someone who is not aware of every tool, they sometime missed the bottom of a window and they try to click on another one but were still on the previous one (this is just one problem that I remember).

Because my goal was not to experiment the theme, I quickly moved users to the other glamourus theme.

The problem is even bigger when you have a screen of bad quality like my acer laptop where I cannot see the border at all if I'm not right in the axis of my screen.

2014-04-06 8:33 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:

It's not quite so. It's just that we are not used to it. But, we can get used to with practice. Let's just start and in a year from now we will be better :).

One way to do it is to talk about principles. For example, one principle I want in a basic theme is to use the least amount of graphical variables it can so that other interfaces that are built on top of it have the freedom to utilize the rest of the variables. Of course, the interface should still satisfy basic usability requirements like finding a piece of information.

Another way to do it is to talk about actual cases that people have difficulties with and look at what can be improved there. So, what kind of information could not be found? What specific actions could not be carried out?

Doru

On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 12:05 AM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:

This is amazing to see how user interfaces are so subjective and hard to formalize. At first, I was not happy with the white theme at all. But now, I find it nicer than the default theme. Unfortunately, I cannot say what i exactly like in the white theme.

Alexandre

On 5 Apr 2014, at 05:42, Guillaume Larcheveque <[hidden email]> wrote:

I confirm that I'm always changing the theme. The main reason is that there is no contrast at all.

For the usability experiments with people, I had a teaches on Moose with other INRIA engineers (who doesn't use pharo) and the first comment was that the look is not friendly at all and they had difficulties with it.

2014-04-04 22:13 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:

Thanks for the input.

If you say it like that there are little chances of changing anything. The only way we can improve is to know why something does not work. Only when we know the reasons can we start to react properly. So, please do let us know what does not work.

Just because it is about the way something looks does not mean that we cannot have a structure discussion about it.

Please note that I am not saying that the white theme is the ultimate design. It is not. But, to find other means of expressions we have to leave the classic one and build simple things in simple ways. The white theme has a small amount of visual variables which goes hand in hand with the philosophy of Pharo. This is something to nurture, not to push away. If something does not work for a reason then we look at it. For example, when the scrolling did not work, we changed the color. I want to spend the energy in doing that, but I need your input.

Just for the record, I am doing similar usability experiments with people that do not know Pharo upfront, and they seem to have no problem finding their way. So, it is not quite as random as it might appear.

Doru

On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Johan Fabry <[hidden email]> wrote:

For the record, I am not so happy with the white theme either.

On Apr 3, 2014, at 5:14 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi
>
> I checked here in rmod and I realized that NOBODY uses the white theme and I realized that I was not the only one to
> get fedup with it. So when can it be not the default one?
>
> Stef
> _______________________________________________
> Moose-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
>

---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---

Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

_______________________________________________
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--
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--
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"Every thing has its own flow"

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