why Pillar

Excerpts from Ben Coman's message of 2015-12-28 12:52:02 +0100:
> I'm quite comfortable with spirituality in the right context.  Its
> just a *distraction* from the technical content.  Your posts have
> interesting technical questions but the spiritual padding obfuscates
> them such that I can't understand what you are asking and makes me
> feel unqualified to any answer - so can only ignore such posts. But
> actually I don't like doing so, thus I sought to advise you in a
> concise way that did not pollute the mail list too much.    I'm sure
> others in the community are in the same boat, so really you are
> narrowing your opportunity for useful responses from the community.

i'd like to second that. robert, the problem is that we are unfamiliar with the
terminology you are using. comparing pharo to religious concepts can be
interesting, but to make such a comparison, it would be necessary to explain
why such a comparison is relevant and what pharo users can gain from it. and
explain what each of the concepts are, in plain words.

> > I don't seem to have a problem nor am I breaking any "rules" I am aware of

you are breaking the rule of missing or loosing your audience.

> Interesting that you take such an adversarial position to a polite
> request.  Religion is divisive and any particular doctrine can
> alienate community members of some other doctrine

religion should not be divisive.
if religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred, division, it is better to be
without it[1].

my personal corollary: if talking about religion leads to dislike, then i stop
talking about it.

greetings, martin.
[1|`Abdu’l-Bahá]

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I got you, stephano. I do not wish to be banned.

Leaving aside established spiritual traditions, but picking out the
pattern for exploration, what would you say the meta-meme of Pharo is?
In other words, what is the mission statement? This would help me grasp
the motivations of the community and is not a meaningless exercise for
the community, from a leadership development perspective..

best,

robert


On 12/28/2015 12:01 PM, stepharo wrote:
--
Robert
.  ..   ...    ^,^

On 12/28/2015 01:00 PM, Martin Bähr wrote:
Pharo may benefit from a broad analogy. It may help to attract new users.

But I got you. I will find a separate medium for explicitly spiritual.
The meta-memes I would like to keep in scope here, with relevant limits,
related to interactive fiction and overlay semantic proxies to color
technical differently.  Vampires and mummies, perhaps! Just kidding. :)

best,
robert


--
Robert
.  ..   ...    ^,^

> On 28 Dec 2015, at 19:11, Robert Withers <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I got you, stephano. I do not wish to be banned.
>
> Leaving aside established spiritual traditions, but picking out the pattern for exploration, what would you say the meta-meme of Pharo is? In other words, what is the mission statement? This would help me grasp the motivations of the community and is not a meaningless exercise for the community, from a leadership development perspective..

http://pharo.org/about

https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/30434/PharoVision.pdf

In an image, you can also do World Menu > Help > Pharo Zen

On 12/28/2015 09:21 AM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:
>>> b. It has support for bibliographic references, footnotes a a more
>>> complete feature set.
>> I wonder how is it that despite being present for so long, it does miss
>> such features...
>
> Well that's the cost of being part of a small community where not all
> the projects can be developed beyond the interest and limitations of
> few members. And that's why interaction with broader communities (for
> example pandoc's one could be wise).

Yes, that is true. That is a cost of a smaller community. But the
problem here is that your solution creates a self fulfilling situation.
If everybody who comes to Pharo is encouraged to use tools outside of
Pharo rather than using, improving and extending the tools in Pharo.
Then the community is working against itself. And the tools never reach
what the person was wanting to use.

Pharo will improve more at a minimum if the people who love Pharo use
Pharo to scratch their itches and use Pharo to create the tools to
scratch their itches. If we continually look outside, we might as well
go outside. Pharo is more like an operating system/environment than a
simple language. More like Linux/Unix and C/Python, than C or Python
alone. We prefer our tools to be written native to our environment
rather than external to it. It is different that Python, Ruby, Lua, PHP
or whatever.

There are so many advantages to using tools in Pharo when using Pharo.
Since Pharo is a full environment on top of any OS, it is exceptionally
portable. Put it in a folder on a flash drive with appropriate VMs and
off you go.

It is also so easy to simply snapshot where you are to save your state
in development or exploration of a problem. So many things that are easy
in Pharo that are difficult, hard or near impossible to do elsewhere.

If Pharo users were to drop Pillar and begin to use Pandoc, then we be
using tools that we have no control over and tools that we are likely
not to contribute to development of. If we then had an need which is not
met by the tools, then what do we do? Do we now adopt yet another
language, environment, editor, ... in order to meet that need? That is
fine for people whose preferred environment and toolset is so defined.
But that is not the preferred way in Pharo (or Smalltalk).

Pharo is a long game tool. We are happy to grow it slow, steady and
stable. We are happy to have more and more help to do so. We want to
grow Pharo and its tools. Not Pandoc, Python and their tools. They are
able to take care of themselves. I want to be using the evolving Pharo
environment and tools not just now, but in 10 years, in 20 years. I see
no other tools (outside of the Smalltalk world) that have this kind of
vision. This is best served by contributing to the environment and the
tools in Pharo. Rather than doing what might be expedient in the here
and now. It affects my here and nows in the future in a more profitable
and productive way.

Now there are times when venturing outside of Pharo is required. And
when that time occurs, we need to be exceptionally well able to do so.
And I see great hope on that front.

But when we do not need to venture outside of Pharo. Those of us who
believe in the vision of Pharo are much more highly advantaged by
contributing to the tools in this community. Than to looks outside the
community for tools which my momentarily meet a need.

I think adding footnotes to Pillar is a great idea. I am not ready to do
so. I am not a qualified Pillar user yet. But when I am, I would not
hesitate to add it to Pillar and improve the tool of the environment I
prefer to use.

Just my 2 cents. It is worth what you paid for it. :)

Shalom.

Jimmie

On Pon, 2015-12-28 at 11:09 -0500, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:

> but themes, skeletons and interactivity. (Details in the referred blog
> post).

I agree that there could be more themes available, although I'm not 100%
sure I understand what is special about grav's skeleton's since it seems
to me that such things are usually part of Nikola's theme. In any case,
I understand that having larger choice to srart with is nice.

What do you mean by interactivity?

Otherwise, Nikola is getting nice new feature called 'shortcode' (same
as Hugo)
which allows to pack different functionality and call it via simple
'shorcode'.

> I used Leo for several years, but nothing beats for me the
interactivity  and
> modifiability of a live coding environment like Pharo/Rossal.

I'm just starting, but it looks great, indeed. ;)


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities 
he has acquired from the modes of material nature; therefore no 
one can refrain from doing something, not even for a moment.

On 12/28/2015 01:18 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
>> On 28 Dec 2015, at 19:11, Robert Withers <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I got you, stephano. I do not wish to be banned.
>>
>> Leaving aside established spiritual traditions, but picking out the pattern for exploration, what would you say the meta-meme of Pharo is? In other words, what is the mission statement? This would help me grasp the motivations of the community and is not a meaningless exercise for the community, from a leadership development perspective..
> http://pharo.org/about.
> https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/30434/PharoVision.pdf

This is awesome, thank you for posting it. It mentions a roadmap. Is
there such a page?

> In an image, you can also do World Menu > Help > Pharo Zen

Yes, my talk of meta-memes is stretching the "Abstraction and
composition are our friends." in new directions. I exceeded capacity for
such on the religious side and the concern over divisiveness
notwithstanding. Ok, done.


--
Robert
.  ..   ...    ^,^

On Pon, 2015-12-28 at 18:03 +0100, stepharo wrote:

Hello Stef,

> have a look at Pillar and you can add footnotes and we will review
> your code and integrate it.

Don't you think it's too early for me to add such feature. ;)

> We are just really busy right now.

Don't worry. I tried Pillar, but I can live with using rst at the moment
and if find that Pharo/Pillar might be more productive environment when
it comes to the docs, I'll gladly take a look how to do it.

For now, I agree, there are more important issues and I'm really looking
forward to use Spur-based VM as well as 64 bits.


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
A person is considered still further advanced when he regards honest
well-wishers, affectionate benefactors, the neutral, mediators, the envious,
friends and enemies, the pious and the sinners all with an equal mind.

We are working on an updated roadmap.

We will update it to form a roadmap soon… (I wanted to have it done already, but was busy
with other things end of the year…)

        Marcus

On 12/28/2015 01:42 PM, Marcus Denker wrote:
Thanks for setting the right expectations, please enjoy the holidays. I
will enjoy it when it is properly aged.

> We will update it to form a roadmap soon… (I wanted to have it done already, but was busy
> with other things end of the year…)

I understand and the results of your efforts are plain to see. Pharo-5
runs my work well. I have been reading your section 4 in the Vision
document with great interest. Particularly, I find I like 4.2, 4.3, 4.5,
4.6, 4.7, 4.8, 4.11 and 4.12. I would like to try my work on top of ocean.

robert

>
> Marcus

--
Robert
.  ..   ...    ^,^

On Pon, 2015-12-28 at 12:19 -0600, Jimmie Houchin wrote:

> There are so many advantages to using tools in Pharo when using
> Pharo. 

I agree with it and that's why I asked what might be some advantages of
using Pillar as documentation tool.

> Do we now adopt yet another  language, environment, editor, ... in
> order to meet that need? That is  fine for people whose preferred
> environment and toolset is so defined.  But that is not the preferred
> way in Pharo (or Smalltalk).

I believe you understand it's not feasible to have *every* required tool
available within Pharo...in my case if Pillar shows it's capable enough
to replace need for using rst, I'll be enthusiastic to embrace it.

Otoh, considering that I'm just starting/learning Pharo, it's obvious
I'm accustomed to use *many* other tools which do the job.

So, being able to use *single* markup for all my writing is clearly
advantageous since it spares me from 'changing gears' in a similar way
that the upcoming feature in Fossil DVCS will allow one to sync with
Git(hub) repositories - no more need to fiddle with Git and focusing
solely to Fossil.

The end result as Richard (Hipp) wrote and, I believe, what I heard from
Stef on one of his presentations is that less brain cpu cells/cycles are
burnt which is always good. :-)

> I think adding footnotes to Pillar is a great idea. I am not ready to
> do 
> so. I am not a qualified Pillar user yet. But when I am, I would not 
> hesitate to add it to Pillar and improve the tool of the environment
> I 
> prefer to use.

I am neither Pillar nor Pharo-qualified user, but share the same
sentiments in regard. ;)


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
Therefore, without being attached to the fruits of activities, 
one should act as a matter of duty, for by working without 
attachment one attains the Supreme.

> Yes, that is true. That is a cost of a smaller community. But the
> problem here is that your solution creates a self fulfilling
> situation. If everybody who comes to Pharo is encouraged to use tools
> outside of Pharo rather than using, improving and extending the tools
> in Pharo. Then the community is working against itself. And the tools
> never reach what the person was wanting to use.

+1
+1

On 28/12/15 17:05, stepharo wrote:
>
>> Yes, that is true. That is a cost of a smaller community. But the
>> problem here is that your solution creates a self fulfilling
>> situation. If everybody who comes to Pharo is encouraged to use tools
>> outside of Pharo rather than using, improving and extending the tools
>> in Pharo. Then the community is working against itself. And the tools
>> never reach what the person was wanting to use.
>
> +1

-1 with explanation ;-) :

I don't think this will be the necessary case more if Pharo is a long
term game. Pharo needs to work better with the external world. It's
already trying to make that with Git and the abstracting the DVCS layer,
its putting tools like fossil in the radar. I don't think that making
the same for flat file web site generators (static like Nikola or
dynamic like grav) and light markup and data serialization languages is
different that trying to work better with flat file source code
management systems or that is having the community working against
itself. I have proposed a long/mid term game by using Asbtract Syntax
Trees to work better with Pandoc. Trying to not reinvet git/fossil
inside Pharo is a good thing the community and doesn't preclude the use
and improvement of Monticello. Trying to not reinvet grav/nikola/pandoc
inside Pharo its also a good think and doesn't preclude esctatic/pillar
exploration and improvement, but in a long term game playing well with
others with different combinations could be wiser.


I understand that, and the dynamic nature of the environment makes that
"reinvention" inside it to make a lot of sense because we have the
interactivity we're used to. But that doesn't preclude playing well with
others (including other languages, frameworks and tools) without meaning
that we will go outside for everything and leave Pharo as a ghost town
(it doesn't happen with DVCS like git).

Same applies for git and nobody is talking about a self fulfilling
prophesy here.

+-1. Fortunately this is a diverse community where making pharo better
doesn't imply it will not work fine with other languages, frameworks,
cultures: See ephestos and bridges with python/blender, FileTree and
bridges with git or grafoscopio and bridges with pandoc.

That moment is different for each of us. I need footnotes and
bibliographic references and integration with zotero now. Pandoc gives
me that and Pillar doesn't. Some people need now things that git has and
monticello doesn't. That doesn't mean that we're not working in the
pharo improvement and vision, but by leveraging into tools like
git/pandoc the stuff we can focus only in the long term game, we can
made more valuable contributions now where we consider our interest and
skills more valuable, that in reimplementing features of git/pandoc
inside Pharo, which doesn't preclude of others of making improvements in
the fronts of native DVCS or documentation.

>> I think adding footnotes to Pillar is a great idea. I am not ready to
>> do so. I am not a qualified Pillar user yet. But when I am, I would
>> not hesitate to add it to Pillar and improve the tool of the
>> environment I prefer to use.
>>

When I become a more proficient user of smalltalk and pharo I would like
to use Abstract Syntax Trees for scripting and manipulation of pandoc
inside pharo. Meanwhile I will try to focus on interactive documentation
and data visualization inside pharo, but using external tools and
markups for import/export.

>> Just my 2 cents. It is worth what you paid for it. :)
>>
>> Shalom.
>>
>> Jimmie
>>
>>
>

My 2 cents more.

Cheers,

Offray

On 28/12/15 13:28, Saša Janiška wrote:
> On Pon, 2015-12-28 at 11:09 -0500, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:
>
>> but themes, skeletons and interactivity. (Details in the referred blog
>> post).
> I agree that there could be more themes available, although I'm not 100%
> sure I understand what is special about grav's skeleton's since it seems
> to me that such things are usually part of Nikola's theme. In any case,
> I understand that having larger choice to srart with is nice.

Skeletons go beyond themes (grav also have them). They're like
mini-sites ready to be filled out with your own content.

> What do you mean by interactivity?

The fact that I don't need to compile the site to see the output. Nikola
have implemented something like that, but is not the default behavior.
Interactivity as a default is what makes me so happy with
Pharo/Smalltalk :-).

Cheers,

Offray

On Pon, 2015-12-28 at 21:41 -0500, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:

> Skeletons go beyond themes (grav also have them). They're like 
> mini-sites ready to be filled out with your own content.

Like demo-sites or with empty slots to add content?

> The fact that I don't need to compile the site to see the output.
> Nikola have implemented something like that, but is not the default
> behavior.

I know about live-reload which is present in Nikola - not sure about
Ecstatic, but I do not expect more from static-site-generator.

> Interactivity as a default is what makes me so happy with 
> Pharo/Smalltalk :-).

Well, that's another world. ;)


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
For him who has conquered the mind, the mind is the best of
friends; but for one who has failed to do so, his mind will
remain the greatest enemy.

On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 6:05 AM, Robert Withers
<[hidden email]> wrote:
4.2 FileSystem was integrated integrated into Pharo 2
https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-changelogs/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=filesystem

4.3 Announcement were introduced in Pharo 1.3
https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-changelogs/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=announcements

Ephemeron VM support available soon in Spur VM (?).  Probably work
more needed image side (?)

4.5 Bootstrap Core - Work In Progress
https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-5.0-Update-Step-3-Minimal/Full

4.6 Fully parametrized compiler tool chain
I'm not clear on what "fully parameterized" encompasses, but the old
Compiler was replaced by new OpalCompiler in Pharo 3 - I guess to
satisfy this.
https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-changelogs/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=opal

4.7 Packages as real objects
Begun in Pharo 2 with introduction of RPackage. Completed in Pharo 4
with removal of PackageInfo.
https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-changelogs/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=package

4.8 Package Meta-Data
Not sure what this entails or status.  Package Manifest introduced in Pharo 2
https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-changelogs/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=manifest

4.11 New Network Layer - I don't know.

4.12 Serializers - Fuel is the default serializer since Pharo 2.  I
don't know the rest of the scope for this point.
https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-changelogs/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=fuel&type=Code

cheers -ben

  ocean.

we should be able to use the compiler to compiler itself in another
environment.

>
> 4.7 Packages as real objects
> Begun in Pharo 2 with introduction of RPackage. Completed in Pharo 4
> with removal of PackageInfo.
> https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-changelogs/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=package
>
> 4.8 Package Meta-Data
> Not sure what this entails or status.  Package Manifest introduced in Pharo 2
> https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-changelogs/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=manifest

going well
>
> 4.11 New Network Layer - I don't know.

nothing on this side.
>
> 4.12 Serializers - Fuel is the default serializer since Pharo 2.  I
> don't know the rest of the scope for this point.
> https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-changelogs/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=fuel&type=Code
>
> cheers -ben
>
>

Thanks for this information, Ben. I have my protocol stack using sockets
and am using Fuel, so a few more adjustments at my session layer and
then my presentation layer and I can start passing packages around
between minimal images, loading and unloading them, serialized as
PassByConstruction, rather than PassByProxy so that code can be locally
constituted. I would then work on building a distributed registry and
package manager and take a close look at distributed logging.

best, robert

On 12/29/2015 05:55 AM, Ben Coman wrote:
--
Robert
.  ..   ...    ^,^

Hi,

On 29/12/15 06:01, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
>
> I think in case of Pillar makes sense to create something in Pharo
> because the existing solutions are not that powerful anyway with the
> notable exception of Latex which is something that Pillar can use and
> inline anyway. Personally I love Pillar, the syntax, installation and
> the general usage is super simple.
>

If you're on Mac/Linux. Windows is another story.

> I also think that having a documentation frameworks instead of using
> one from another language is a must have because documentation is
> super important and you should not be limited by what people do in
> other languages and its not that complex to implement like for example
> version control.
>

Agreed.

> Of course Pillar is somewhere in between because on one hand yes its a
> Pharo implementation but on the other it depends on Latex for the
> creation of pdfs, so I think overall its a very well designed
> frameworks with very good syntax, small learning curve and enormous
> abilities because of the latex integration.
>

Same as Pandoc.

> So to answer your question
>
> Why Pillar ?
>
> Because its awesome :)
>

Same as pandoc.

Cheers,

Offray