3dot11?

2007/7/4, Edgar J. De Cleene <[hidden email]>: I thought he was responsible for maintaining Morphic. I was mistaken
as previously pointed out. However his work on in the board and on
Spoon has nothing directly to do with the way Squeak packages are
maintained which is what this thread is about  (at least to me).

> He do Spoon and many people here feel in the long time Squeak become Squeak.
>
> Now you should blame me, as part of release team harvesting Mantis.

The way I understand Squeak Teams [1] they should be responsible for
maintaining their packages. Am I mistaken again?
I can reproduce the bug and the fixes works for me. Again this
discussion should not happen here but on Mantis.

> maybe you are lucky
>
> and I put into updates.

No way! This is exactly the problem I wanted to point out. I am not a
maintainer of Morphic and don't want to become one. Same with
Monticello. Again,  I am not making accusations or proposals just
pointing out how I see things.

Philippe

[1] http://www.squeak.org/Community/Teams/

> Edgar
>
>
>
>

> The reporter is renggli. As I have deep respect for he, I try the bug and if
> I could reproduce the bug and the fix, maybe you are lucky and I put into
> updates.

I added a test case that shows the presence of the bug. Please note
that the solution I posted there is not really a clean fix, it is more
a hack and I am by far no expert in this area. It solved my problem,
but it could well have some nasty side effects. I don't know why those
strange limitations were built into the code.

Since the one that I thought has maintainer-ship of the Graphic
packages said this is a Morphic issue, there is nobody that feels
responsible anymore.

Lukas

--
Lukas Renggli
http://www.lukas-renggli.ch

On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 10:04:44 -0700, Craig Latta <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yes.

Also, I want a pony.



(Sorry, couldn't resist. I =can= see why Philippe would've gotten that  
idea.)

Lukas Renggli wrote:
> Since the one that I thought has maintainer-ship of the Graphic
> packages said this is a Morphic issue, there is nobody that feels
> responsible anymore.

Looks like I'm "it" now (since I'm "the one"), so let's review the
history of this issue:

http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=5222

10-11-06 13:20  renggli   New Issue  
10-11-06 13:20 renggli Issue Monitored: renggli
10-11-06 13:33 renggli File Added: FormCanvas-reset.st
10-11-06 13:34 renggli Note Added: 0007651
10-12-06 02:32 andreas Note Added: 0007656
10-12-06 02:32 andreas Category Balloon3D => Morphic


You originally filed a change to FormCanvas (which lives in
Morphic-Support) under the category Balloon3D. Since FormCanvas doesn't
live in Graphics-* (which is what makes this a "Graphics" issue) I filed
it in the category I felt was correct for it. I should add that I often
recategorize issues that are more broadly meant as "Graphics issue"
(like issues related to fonts, m17n and others). Since I effectively
"own" that category on Mantis I prefer to interpret it with the smallest
possible scope to keep the amount of work reasonable.

I do feel completely justified to reclassify an issue affecting
FormCanvas from Balloon3D to Morphic. If you feel that was inappropriate
I'm curious to hear your reasoning.

 From there, things get a little more difficult. A couple of days later,
you filed another, logically related (but structurally independent)
change to BalloonEngine which I actually looked at but didn't like at
all (you may not have realized that the implication of this change is
that each and every use of BalloonEngine comes with a 256k memory
allocation - even if you draw a 1x1px form) so I decided to postpone
this until the time I could sit down and work out a better fix. And this
is where that part got lost: Since it was filed under Morphic it simply
fell under my radar screen and never came up again (it's hard enough to
keep track of the issues that are filed in the categories that you
actually monitor).

I can't speak for whether someone cares about the Morphic bits but if an
issue gets filed in a category that I don't monitor it's a very good way
to make sure I won't ever look at it.

Cheers,
   - Andreas

> I do feel completely justified to reclassify an issue affecting
> FormCanvas from Balloon3D to Morphic. If you feel that was inappropriate
> I'm curious to hear your reasoning.

I discovered the bug while using the BalloonCanvas framework. I was
not doing anything related to Morphic programming (I was just drawing
on ColorForms), so I thought this was related to graphics. This was
probably a wrong assumption.

> From there, things get a little more difficult. A couple of days later,
> you filed another, logically related (but structurally independent)
> change to BalloonEngine which I actually looked at but didn't like at
> all (you may not have realized that the implication of this change is
> that each and every use of BalloonEngine comes with a 256k memory
> allocation - even if you draw a 1x1px form) so I decided to postpone
> this until the time I could sit down and work out a better fix.

Yes I realized that this wasted memory. That's why I asked you for help:

"renggli 10-15-06 17:56: Reminder sent to: andreas. Desperately
looking at some other hardcoded clipping constants I stumbled across
BaloonEngine>>#initialize. It is a very interesting method, because it
uses both numbers that I observed as a drawing limit in the
x-direction. I don't understand what the variable 'span' is used for
however. Andreas, isn't this code part of Balloon3D ..."

Since I got no answer I helped myself: I patched it in my image so
that it worked for my use-case and posted the patch to mantis knowing
that this might not be the perfect solution.

Frankly I didn't expect that this bug report would ever be looked at
or mentioned again. I am glad that the issue is now discussed in the
list.

> I can't speak for whether someone cares about the Morphic bits but if an
> issue gets filed in a category that I don't monitor it's a very good way
> to make sure I won't ever look at it.

But this was you that re-categorized it under Morphic:

10-12-06 02:32  andreas         Category Balloon3D => Morphic

Should we split the bug-report into two categories (Balloon3D and Morphic)?

Lukas

--
Lukas Renggli
http://www.lukas-renggli.ch

On Jul 5, 2007, at 8:26 , Lukas Renggli wrote:

Seems like you are unaware that Balloon and Balloon3D are two  
completely different frameworks. Balloon is a 2D renderer with anti-
aliasing, originally written and optimized towards rendering SWF. The  
BalloonCanvas utilizes the BalloonEngine for Morphic drawing.  
Balloon3D is a 3D graphics engine with multiple backends, including a  
software rasterizer with bilinear textur filtering, Direct3D and  
OpenGL accelerated backends.


- Bert -

> Seems like you are unaware that Balloon and Balloon3D are two
> completely different frameworks. Balloon is a 2D renderer with anti-
> aliasing, originally written and optimized towards rendering SWF. The
> BalloonCanvas utilizes the BalloonEngine for Morphic drawing.
> Balloon3D is a 3D graphics engine with multiple backends, including a
> software rasterizer with bilinear textur filtering, Direct3D and
> OpenGL accelerated backends.

I was not aware that these are two different things. At least the two
frameworks share a big part of their name and obviously they both do
some kind of graphic drawing. Furthermore there is no category for
'Balloon' on Mantis, just one for 'Balloon3D'. Does 'Balloon' belong
to 'Morphic'? Does this mean that 'Balloon' is not maintained?

That would be a pity, because the anti-aliasing was about the only
argument to prefer Squeak over VisualWorks for graphics. With the
raise of Cairo things probably change anyway :-(

Lukas

--
Lukas Renggli
http://www.lukas-renggli.ch

A Balloon category has now been added to the Squeak project on
bugs.squeak.org and it has been assigned to Andreas.

Ken

On Thu, 2007-07-05 at 11:15 +0200, Lukas Renggli wrote:

El 7/5/07 1:18 PM, "Ken Causey" <[hidden email]> escribió:

> A Balloon category has now been added to the Squeak project on
> bugs.squeak.org and it has been assigned to Andreas.

I follow all and is a joy learn from Andreas , Lukas, etc.
As soon they agree fixes and enhancements are ready, I do update(s) for
3.10.

Thanks for moving Squeak !!

Edgar