A new critical blog discussing Seaside - now concrete proposals

> I have added some first concrete proposals to my new critical blog  
> on Seaside: http://thesmalltalkblog.blogspot.com
>
> May I also propose to get away from these personal and emotional  
> discussions here and to advance to some proper work. I have started  
> with my proposals on my blog.
>
> As Keith wrote very wisely (thank you Keith):
>
>> Mr Cucumber is raising issues. We need to identify the actual  
>> issues and
> see if they need addressing.<
> See my latest postings on my blog! I am getting into the subjects!
>
>
> And Keith, thank you again for this:
>
>> Personally I dont see much anger in his blog, I see honesty as  
>> expressed from his perception. In fact there is far less anger  
>> expressed here than I would expect.<
>
> I had expected this reaction from the mailing list, because I know  
> well how such communities work. They are - at least by the "leading  
> members" - social entities where the argument as such is mostly less  
> important than who raises it. We are all humans! That's natural but  
> not helpful.
>
> Ths is exactly what Sebastian Sastre wrote:
>
>> And you did it annonymously, which leaves your ideas in a weaker  
>> position. What did you pretend with that? to create the annonymous  
>> seaside critic comunity?
>> leaded by whom?
>
> @Sebastian: If you value an argument from a person who's name you  
> know higher because just of that, pardonnez-moi, je m'excuse, but  
> this would a clear sign of incompetence.
>
>> leaded by whom?
> Only led by arguments!
>
> This is also another reason why I will stay anonymous. I want to  
> improve the subject and not gain personal respect by some community  
> (as Thorsten proposed and wrote that this is a prerequisite to be  
> taken seriously). Forget it!
>
> Either people believe in my arguments and want to profit from my  
> very comprehensive experience - or not. In the latter case we will  
> continue in our own style as we did in the past. Nothing lost.
>
> Or I might find some people who are willing to jump onto our boat  
> and travel with us, because we share the same believes and goals. In  
> this case we would just subclass (as we already did in many cases)  
> where major changes are wanted and that's it!
>
> Seaside is too important for us to either forget about it or to live  
> with - sorry for my openess - this horrible lausy amateurish and  
> undocumented code of Release 2.8. This is unacceptable for us to  
> build products upon.
>
> These authors of Seaside (whom I don't know) really had some crazy  
> ideas!
>
> Just remember this f... (4-letter word left out with respect to  
> those who believe in PC)stupid idiotic url path "/Seaside/do".
>
> What a crazy idea!
>
> It took us several days in the beginning to get this rubbish out! It  
> was done in such a fancy way that was really difficult for somebody  
> not (yet) knowing the system. And there were many complains about  
> that here on the list.
>
> What an idiotic and unrealistic idea! And why so badly implemented.
>
> Now, you can't expect me to have respect for people doing such a  
> bullshit! And my expectation from life experience*** was that these  
> people would be immune to advice. This is why I chose the public  
> block to discuss improvements outside this "social community" here!
>
> Therefore, don't expect me to participate here too frequently. I  
> have no time for such discussions. I want to get my project moving  
> and that means improving Seaside.
>
> Everybody is welcome to join - and I will be most eager and happy to  
> learn from other people's experiences and follow their advice. But  
> now on this previous low-level of "Seaside standards". Non, merci!
>
>
> ***
> I software development experience is very much like cylinder  
> capacity in motor construction! There is only one way to improve  
> cylinder capacity - and that is by more cylinder capacity!
>
>
>
> --
> Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört? Der kann`s mit  
> allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger01
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>

> These authors of Seaside (whom I don't know) really had some
> crazy ideas!
>
> Just remember this f... (4-letter word left out with respect
> to those who believe in PC)stupid idiotic url path "/Seaside/do".
>
> What a crazy idea!
>
> It took us several days in the beginning to get this rubbish
> out! It was done in such a fancy way that was really
> difficult for somebody not (yet) knowing the system. And
> there were many complains about that here on the list.
>
> What an idiotic and unrealistic idea! And why so badly implemented.
>

> It's really, really hard to take anything you say seriously when you  
> insist on a veil of anonymity.  Seaside is not some political group,  
> and you aren't a revolutionary.  Let us know who you are, and make  
> your comments constructively, rather than destructively.
>
> You've already seen how people are taking the kind of rhetoric you're  
> dishing out, so I guess I'll ask you this: how's that working out for  
> you so far?
>
> James Robertson
> Cincom Smalltalk Product Evangelist
> http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
> Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 17, 2009, at 8:23 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> > I have added some first concrete proposals to my new critical blog  
> > on Seaside: http://thesmalltalkblog.blogspot.com
> >
> > May I also propose to get away from these personal and emotional  
> > discussions here and to advance to some proper work. I have started  
> > with my proposals on my blog.
> >
> > As Keith wrote very wisely (thank you Keith):
> >
> >> Mr Cucumber is raising issues. We need to identify the actual  
> >> issues and
> > see if they need addressing.<
> > See my latest postings on my blog! I am getting into the subjects!
> >
> >
> > And Keith, thank you again for this:
> >
> >> Personally I dont see much anger in his blog, I see honesty as  
> >> expressed from his perception. In fact there is far less anger  
> >> expressed here than I would expect.<
> >
> > I had expected this reaction from the mailing list, because I know  
> > well how such communities work. They are - at least by the "leading  
> > members" - social entities where the argument as such is mostly less  
> > important than who raises it. We are all humans! That's natural but  
> > not helpful.
> >
> > Ths is exactly what Sebastian Sastre wrote:
> >
> >> And you did it annonymously, which leaves your ideas in a weaker  
> >> position. What did you pretend with that? to create the annonymous  
> >> seaside critic comunity?
> >> leaded by whom?
> >
> > @Sebastian: If you value an argument from a person who's name you  
> > know higher because just of that, pardonnez-moi, je m'excuse, but  
> > this would a clear sign of incompetence.
> >
> >> leaded by whom?
> > Only led by arguments!
> >
> > This is also another reason why I will stay anonymous. I want to  
> > improve the subject and not gain personal respect by some community  
> > (as Thorsten proposed and wrote that this is a prerequisite to be  
> > taken seriously). Forget it!
> >
> > Either people believe in my arguments and want to profit from my  
> > very comprehensive experience - or not. In the latter case we will  
> > continue in our own style as we did in the past. Nothing lost.
> >
> > Or I might find some people who are willing to jump onto our boat  
> > and travel with us, because we share the same believes and goals. In  
> > this case we would just subclass (as we already did in many cases)  
> > where major changes are wanted and that's it!
> >
> > Seaside is too important for us to either forget about it or to live  
> > with - sorry for my openess - this horrible lausy amateurish and  
> > undocumented code of Release 2.8. This is unacceptable for us to  
> > build products upon.
> >
> > These authors of Seaside (whom I don't know) really had some crazy  
> > ideas!
> >
> > Just remember this f... (4-letter word left out with respect to  
> > those who believe in PC)stupid idiotic url path "/Seaside/do".
> >
> > What a crazy idea!
> >
> > It took us several days in the beginning to get this rubbish out! It  
> > was done in such a fancy way that was really difficult for somebody  
> > not (yet) knowing the system. And there were many complains about  
> > that here on the list.
> >
> > What an idiotic and unrealistic idea! And why so badly implemented.
> >
> > Now, you can't expect me to have respect for people doing such a  
> > bullshit! And my expectation from life experience*** was that these  
> > people would be immune to advice. This is why I chose the public  
> > block to discuss improvements outside this "social community" here!
> >
> > Therefore, don't expect me to participate here too frequently. I  
> > have no time for such discussions. I want to get my project moving  
> > and that means improving Seaside.
> >
> > Everybody is welcome to join - and I will be most eager and happy to  
> > learn from other people's experiences and follow their advice. But  
> > now on this previous low-level of "Seaside standards". Non, merci!
> >
> >
> > ***
> > I software development experience is very much like cylinder  
> > capacity in motor construction! There is only one way to improve  
> > cylinder capacity - and that is by more cylinder capacity!
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört? Der kann`s mit  
> > allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger01
> > _______________________________________________
> > seaside mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

> Mr. Robertson,
>
> If the name behind facts is your *only concern* and the precondition  
> for you to think about serious and well funded critics, then you are  
> not only outclassing yourself but you are proving that I am  
> absolutely right to stay anonymous.
>
>> It's really, really hard to take anything you say seriously when you
>> insist on a veil of anonymity.
> If you, too, judge people's opinion by their name only, you are  
> issuing an evidence of incapacity for yourself!
>
> Several emails within this very first day of my blog have assured me  
> that it is time to speak out openly - without this stupid US-made  
> "political correctness" (which means lying) and without false  
> politeness - about some facts and critics that obviously bother far  
> more people than just me, most of whom just don't want conflicts and  
> therefore keep quiet.
>
> I have my bad experiences with Smalltalk providers (at this moment I  
> am keeping names away) and I will not waste my time to fight their  
> possible pressure.
>
> Please, all, let's forget about this personal discussion. I have  
> added a lot more concrete proposals to my blog. Let's discuss these.
>
> Mr. Robertson: You should rather do something about the still very  
> questionable (to be fiendly) user interface of VisualWorks to  
> finally unveil the full potential of this tool - instead of  
> discussing names of critics.
>
> Best reagards
> Mr. Cucumber
> (I like that nick!)
>
>
>
>
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>> Datum: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:51:42 -0400
>> Von: James Robertson <[hidden email]>
>> An: Seaside - general discussion <[hidden email]>
>> Betreff: Re: [Seaside] A new critical blog discussing Seaside - now  
>> concrete proposals
>
>> It's really, really hard to take anything you say seriously when you
>> insist on a veil of anonymity.  Seaside is not some political group,
>> and you aren't a revolutionary.  Let us know who you are, and make
>> your comments constructively, rather than destructively.
>>
>> You've already seen how people are taking the kind of rhetoric you're
>> dishing out, so I guess I'll ask you this: how's that working out for
>> you so far?
>>
>> James Robertson
>> Cincom Smalltalk Product Evangelist
>> http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
>> Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 17, 2009, at 8:23 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>
>>> I have added some first concrete proposals to my new critical blog
>>> on Seaside: http://thesmalltalkblog.blogspot.com
>>>
>>> May I also propose to get away from these personal and emotional
>>> discussions here and to advance to some proper work. I have started
>>> with my proposals on my blog.
>>>
>>> As Keith wrote very wisely (thank you Keith):
>>>
>>>> Mr Cucumber is raising issues. We need to identify the actual
>>>> issues and
>>> see if they need addressing.<
>>> See my latest postings on my blog! I am getting into the subjects!
>>>
>>>
>>> And Keith, thank you again for this:
>>>
>>>> Personally I dont see much anger in his blog, I see honesty as
>>>> expressed from his perception. In fact there is far less anger
>>>> expressed here than I would expect.<
>>>
>>> I had expected this reaction from the mailing list, because I know
>>> well how such communities work. They are - at least by the "leading
>>> members" - social entities where the argument as such is mostly less
>>> important than who raises it. We are all humans! That's natural but
>>> not helpful.
>>>
>>> Ths is exactly what Sebastian Sastre wrote:
>>>
>>>> And you did it annonymously, which leaves your ideas in a weaker
>>>> position. What did you pretend with that? to create the annonymous
>>>> seaside critic comunity?
>>>> leaded by whom?
>>>
>>> @Sebastian: If you value an argument from a person who's name you
>>> know higher because just of that, pardonnez-moi, je m'excuse, but
>>> this would a clear sign of incompetence.
>>>
>>>> leaded by whom?
>>> Only led by arguments!
>>>
>>> This is also another reason why I will stay anonymous. I want to
>>> improve the subject and not gain personal respect by some community
>>> (as Thorsten proposed and wrote that this is a prerequisite to be
>>> taken seriously). Forget it!
>>>
>>> Either people believe in my arguments and want to profit from my
>>> very comprehensive experience - or not. In the latter case we will
>>> continue in our own style as we did in the past. Nothing lost.
>>>
>>> Or I might find some people who are willing to jump onto our boat
>>> and travel with us, because we share the same believes and goals. In
>>> this case we would just subclass (as we already did in many cases)
>>> where major changes are wanted and that's it!
>>>
>>> Seaside is too important for us to either forget about it or to live
>>> with - sorry for my openess - this horrible lausy amateurish and
>>> undocumented code of Release 2.8. This is unacceptable for us to
>>> build products upon.
>>>
>>> These authors of Seaside (whom I don't know) really had some crazy
>>> ideas!
>>>
>>> Just remember this f... (4-letter word left out with respect to
>>> those who believe in PC)stupid idiotic url path "/Seaside/do".
>>>
>>> What a crazy idea!
>>>
>>> It took us several days in the beginning to get this rubbish out! It
>>> was done in such a fancy way that was really difficult for somebody
>>> not (yet) knowing the system. And there were many complains about
>>> that here on the list.
>>>
>>> What an idiotic and unrealistic idea! And why so badly implemented.
>>>
>>> Now, you can't expect me to have respect for people doing such a
>>> bullshit! And my expectation from life experience*** was that these
>>> people would be immune to advice. This is why I chose the public
>>> block to discuss improvements outside this "social community" here!
>>>
>>> Therefore, don't expect me to participate here too frequently. I
>>> have no time for such discussions. I want to get my project moving
>>> and that means improving Seaside.
>>>
>>> Everybody is welcome to join - and I will be most eager and happy to
>>> learn from other people's experiences and follow their advice. But
>>> now on this previous low-level of "Seaside standards". Non, merci!
>>>
>>>
>>> ***
>>> I software development experience is very much like cylinder
>>> capacity in motor construction! There is only one way to improve
>>> cylinder capacity - and that is by more cylinder capacity!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört? Der kann`s mit
>>> allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger01
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> seaside mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> seaside mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
> --
> Neu: GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate +  
> Telefonanschluss für nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://dslspecial.gmx.de/freedsl-surfflat/?ac=OM.AD.PD003K11308T4569a
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>

> > @Sebastian: If you value an argument from a person who's name
> > you know higher because just of that, pardonnez-moi, je
> > m'excuse, but this would a clear sign of incompetence.
> >
> Well you clearily didn't get it. I've anticipated an ad hominem
> contra-agumentation and that's why I've ended my response clarifiying "I
> consider good critics as precious".
> If you read carefully you'll see I didn't say anything about who make the
> critics.
> But instead of that you've decided to put yourself in the position of
> calling me
> something like "an incompetent signaler" for no reason from an annonymous
> position.
>
> > > leaded by whom?
> > Only led by arguments!
> >
> Please explain how that statement could be possibly be talking about
> leadership
> wisdom?
> If for some reason you still think that you can convert anyone just by
> saying
> that respond with real life examples of succesful, healthy and wealth
> comunities
> created from ideas supported by annonymous leaders. I'll be all ears.
>
> > This is also another reason why I will stay anonymous. I want
> > to improve the subject and not gain personal respect by some
> > community (as Thorsten proposed and wrote that this is a
> > prerequisite to be taken seriously). Forget it!
> >
> If you pretend to seduce for colaboration try harder. Play teamwork.
> That's my
> whole point. Showing off annonymous modesty will not even be near to
> compensate
> the damage your attitude is making to the Seaside brand.
> Randal answered you with wise questions:
> "- Do you want Seaside to succeed?
> - Or do you just want to point out that Seaside has failed you, without
>   actually having tried to help Seaside?"
> I'd add:
> - Do you like to be another success story by using seaside?
> - If that happens are you willing to share moral credits?
> Your current attitude is telling here that you don't recognise the efforts
> that
> are being invested in Seaside. Also your attitude is telling here that not
> only
> you are not recognising the efforts but you are also taking actions
> against
> those efforts by talking with intense anger in a public list and blogging
> about
> that in that tone. All that because you decided to react like that because
> you
> find minor inconveniences in a fantastically productive machine called
> Seaside.
> I think you are pain for your own reasons and you didn't make your
> homework to
> let the water go under the bridge and move on the progress line in
> teamwork.
> Think about your competence on that and if you found any 'bug' do what a
> smalltaker knows that works: do something about it and find out how to fix
> that.
>
> You know.. this is an open comunity based on volunteerism. You can show us
> you
> understamd that with several signals. For instance by stopping the
> corporativistic dictatoship talking. And specially the intolerance
> talking. If
> you won't then just reserve that for the internal part of your cranium
> and/or
> your poor subordinates. It is not only near to be helping you to seduce
> not one
> volunteer but is also letting you in the position of a troll. I think
> that's the
> real reason of your annonymousity: you have fear about the reaction of the
> comunity will burn your reputation as a contributor to seaside.
> That's because you can't inpire anything valuable with this actions you've
> made.
> Put that toghether with the dictatorship talk and you have a perfect lack
> of
> leadership know how.
> That's sad man. Really. Whoever you are, review that for your own good.
>
>
> > Either people believe in my arguments and want to profit from
> > my very comprehensive experience - or not. In the latter case
> > we will continue in our own style as we did in the past. Nothing lost.
> >
> > Or I might find some people who are willing to jump onto our
> > boat and travel with us, because we share the same believes
> > and goals. In this case we would just subclass (as we already
> > did in many cases) where major changes are wanted and that's it!
> >
> Some people that will never found you because you're annonymous right? if
> you're
> not kidding then you really should fire the marketer of the campaign of
> your
> cause right now.
>
> > Seaside is too important for us to either forget about it or
> > to live with - sorry for my openess - this horrible lausy
> > amateurish and undocumented code of Release 2.8. This is
> > unacceptable for us to build products upon.
> >
> And who is obligating you to do it in the first place?
>
>
> > These authors of Seaside (whom I don't know) really had some
> > crazy ideas!
> >
> > Just remember this f... (4-letter word left out with respect
> > to those who believe in PC)stupid idiotic url path "/Seaside/do".
> >
> > What a crazy idea!
> >
> > It took us several days in the beginning to get this rubbish
> > out! It was done in such a fancy way that was really
> > difficult for somebody not (yet) knowing the system. And
> > there were many complains about that here on the list.
> >
> > What an idiotic and unrealistic idea! And why so badly implemented.
> >
> You are just yelling. You are pointless here. Stop trolling, present
> arguments
> as a real person and proposals if you want attention from adult people.
>
> > Now, you can't expect me to have respect for people doing
> > such a bullshit! And my expectation from life experience***
> > was that these people would be immune to advice. This is why
> > I chose the public block to discuss improvements outside this
> > "social community" here!
> >
> Due to your previous contributions I don't think people here will miss
> you.
> Differently from great leaders you are not making for the community
> anything to
> be missed so...
>
> > Therefore, don't expect me to participate here too
> > frequently. I have no time for such discussions. I want to
> > get my project moving and that means improving Seaside.
> >
> > Everybody is welcome to join - and I will be most eager and
> > happy to learn from other people's experiences and follow
> > their advice. But now on this previous low-level of "Seaside
> > standards". Non, merci!
> >
> Remember what you've done. The attitude you presented here by doing this
> is
> contradicting any welcoming not by the content but just by the sad way you
> did
> it.
> Go ahed, best success. Contract better marketing campaigns for the future
> sebastian
>
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

> Sigh.  I'll make a final point, and - since I think this will remain  
> pointless - give you all the attention you deserve from here on out.
>
> If you have the courage of your convictions, then stand behind them.  
> If you won't, then I have to assume you don't actually have any  
> convictions, and are here in some weird attempt to pump up your own  
> ego.  So be it; I've said my piece, and I don't see any reason to  
> engage further.
>
> You've succeeded; I simply won't take any posts you make this way  
> seriously - in this or any other forum.
>
> James Robertson
> Cincom Smalltalk Product Evangelist
> http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
> Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 17, 2009, at 10:59 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> > Mr. Robertson,
> >
> > If the name behind facts is your *only concern* and the precondition  
> > for you to think about serious and well funded critics, then you are  
> > not only outclassing yourself but you are proving that I am  
> > absolutely right to stay anonymous.
> >
> >> It's really, really hard to take anything you say seriously when you
> >> insist on a veil of anonymity.
> > If you, too, judge people's opinion by their name only, you are  
> > issuing an evidence of incapacity for yourself!
> >
> > Several emails within this very first day of my blog have assured me  
> > that it is time to speak out openly - without this stupid US-made  
> > "political correctness" (which means lying) and without false  
> > politeness - about some facts and critics that obviously bother far  
> > more people than just me, most of whom just don't want conflicts and  
> > therefore keep quiet.
> >
> > I have my bad experiences with Smalltalk providers (at this moment I  
> > am keeping names away) and I will not waste my time to fight their  
> > possible pressure.
> >
> > Please, all, let's forget about this personal discussion. I have  
> > added a lot more concrete proposals to my blog. Let's discuss these.
> >
> > Mr. Robertson: You should rather do something about the still very  
> > questionable (to be fiendly) user interface of VisualWorks to  
> > finally unveil the full potential of this tool - instead of  
> > discussing names of critics.
> >
> > Best reagards
> > Mr. Cucumber
> > (I like that nick!)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------- Original-Nachricht --------
> >> Datum: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:51:42 -0400
> >> Von: James Robertson <[hidden email]>
> >> An: Seaside - general discussion <[hidden email]>
> >> Betreff: Re: [Seaside] A new critical blog discussing Seaside - now  
> >> concrete proposals
> >
> >> It's really, really hard to take anything you say seriously when you
> >> insist on a veil of anonymity.  Seaside is not some political group,
> >> and you aren't a revolutionary.  Let us know who you are, and make
> >> your comments constructively, rather than destructively.
> >>
> >> You've already seen how people are taking the kind of rhetoric you're
> >> dishing out, so I guess I'll ask you this: how's that working out for
> >> you so far?
> >>
> >> James Robertson
> >> Cincom Smalltalk Product Evangelist
> >> http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
> >> Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Apr 17, 2009, at 8:23 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> >>
> >>> I have added some first concrete proposals to my new critical blog
> >>> on Seaside: http://thesmalltalkblog.blogspot.com
> >>>
> >>> May I also propose to get away from these personal and emotional
> >>> discussions here and to advance to some proper work. I have started
> >>> with my proposals on my blog.
> >>>
> >>> As Keith wrote very wisely (thank you Keith):
> >>>
> >>>> Mr Cucumber is raising issues. We need to identify the actual
> >>>> issues and
> >>> see if they need addressing.<
> >>> See my latest postings on my blog! I am getting into the subjects!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> And Keith, thank you again for this:
> >>>
> >>>> Personally I dont see much anger in his blog, I see honesty as
> >>>> expressed from his perception. In fact there is far less anger
> >>>> expressed here than I would expect.<
> >>>
> >>> I had expected this reaction from the mailing list, because I know
> >>> well how such communities work. They are - at least by the "leading
> >>> members" - social entities where the argument as such is mostly less
> >>> important than who raises it. We are all humans! That's natural but
> >>> not helpful.
> >>>
> >>> Ths is exactly what Sebastian Sastre wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> And you did it annonymously, which leaves your ideas in a weaker
> >>>> position. What did you pretend with that? to create the annonymous
> >>>> seaside critic comunity?
> >>>> leaded by whom?
> >>>
> >>> @Sebastian: If you value an argument from a person who's name you
> >>> know higher because just of that, pardonnez-moi, je m'excuse, but
> >>> this would a clear sign of incompetence.
> >>>
> >>>> leaded by whom?
> >>> Only led by arguments!
> >>>
> >>> This is also another reason why I will stay anonymous. I want to
> >>> improve the subject and not gain personal respect by some community
> >>> (as Thorsten proposed and wrote that this is a prerequisite to be
> >>> taken seriously). Forget it!
> >>>
> >>> Either people believe in my arguments and want to profit from my
> >>> very comprehensive experience - or not. In the latter case we will
> >>> continue in our own style as we did in the past. Nothing lost.
> >>>
> >>> Or I might find some people who are willing to jump onto our boat
> >>> and travel with us, because we share the same believes and goals. In
> >>> this case we would just subclass (as we already did in many cases)
> >>> where major changes are wanted and that's it!
> >>>
> >>> Seaside is too important for us to either forget about it or to live
> >>> with - sorry for my openess - this horrible lausy amateurish and
> >>> undocumented code of Release 2.8. This is unacceptable for us to
> >>> build products upon.
> >>>
> >>> These authors of Seaside (whom I don't know) really had some crazy
> >>> ideas!
> >>>
> >>> Just remember this f... (4-letter word left out with respect to
> >>> those who believe in PC)stupid idiotic url path "/Seaside/do".
> >>>
> >>> What a crazy idea!
> >>>
> >>> It took us several days in the beginning to get this rubbish out! It
> >>> was done in such a fancy way that was really difficult for somebody
> >>> not (yet) knowing the system. And there were many complains about
> >>> that here on the list.
> >>>
> >>> What an idiotic and unrealistic idea! And why so badly implemented.
> >>>
> >>> Now, you can't expect me to have respect for people doing such a
> >>> bullshit! And my expectation from life experience*** was that these
> >>> people would be immune to advice. This is why I chose the public
> >>> block to discuss improvements outside this "social community" here!
> >>>
> >>> Therefore, don't expect me to participate here too frequently. I
> >>> have no time for such discussions. I want to get my project moving
> >>> and that means improving Seaside.
> >>>
> >>> Everybody is welcome to join - and I will be most eager and happy to
> >>> learn from other people's experiences and follow their advice. But
> >>> now on this previous low-level of "Seaside standards". Non, merci!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ***
> >>> I software development experience is very much like cylinder
> >>> capacity in motor construction! There is only one way to improve
> >>> cylinder capacity - and that is by more cylinder capacity!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört? Der kann`s mit
> >>> allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger01
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> seaside mailing list
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> seaside mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
> >
> > --
> > Neu: GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate +  
> > Telefonanschluss für nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!*
> http://dslspecial.gmx.de/freedsl-surfflat/?ac=OM.AD.PD003K11308T4569a
> > _______________________________________________
> > seaside mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

> Quod erat demonstradum! No suprise!
>
> Greeting from Europe!
>
>
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>> Datum: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 23:11:45 -0400
>> Von: James Robertson <[hidden email]>
>> An: Seaside - general discussion <[hidden email]>
>> Betreff: Re: [Seaside] A new critical blog discussing Seaside - now concrete  proposals
>
>> Sigh.  I'll make a final point, and - since I think this will remain
>> pointless - give you all the attention you deserve from here on out.
>>
>> If you have the courage of your convictions, then stand behind them.
>> If you won't, then I have to assume you don't actually have any
>> convictions, and are here in some weird attempt to pump up your own
>> ego.  So be it; I've said my piece, and I don't see any reason to
>> engage further.
>>
>> You've succeeded; I simply won't take any posts you make this way
>> seriously - in this or any other forum.
>>
>> James Robertson
>> Cincom Smalltalk Product Evangelist
>> http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
>> Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 17, 2009, at 10:59 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>
>> > Mr. Robertson,
>> >
>> > If the name behind facts is your *only concern* and the precondition
>> > for you to think about serious and well funded critics, then you are
>> > not only outclassing yourself but you are proving that I am
>> > absolutely right to stay anonymous.
>> >
>> >> It's really, really hard to take anything you say seriously when you
>> >> insist on a veil of anonymity.
>> > If you, too, judge people's opinion by their name only, you are
>> > issuing an evidence of incapacity for yourself!
>> >
>> > Several emails within this very first day of my blog have assured me
>> > that it is time to speak out openly - without this stupid US-made
>> > "political correctness" (which means lying) and without false
>> > politeness - about some facts and critics that obviously bother far
>> > more people than just me, most of whom just don't want conflicts and
>> > therefore keep quiet.
>> >
>> > I have my bad experiences with Smalltalk providers (at this moment I
>> > am keeping names away) and I will not waste my time to fight their
>> > possible pressure.
>> >
>> > Please, all, let's forget about this personal discussion. I have
>> > added a lot more concrete proposals to my blog. Let's discuss these.
>> >
>> > Mr. Robertson: You should rather do something about the still very
>> > questionable (to be fiendly) user interface of VisualWorks to
>> > finally unveil the full potential of this tool - instead of
>> > discussing names of critics.
>> >
>> > Best reagards
>> > Mr. Cucumber
>> > (I like that nick!)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>> >> Datum: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:51:42 -0400
>> >> Von: James Robertson <[hidden email]>
>> >> An: Seaside - general discussion <[hidden email]>
>> >> Betreff: Re: [Seaside] A new critical blog discussing Seaside - now
>> >> concrete   proposals
>> >
>> >> It's really, really hard to take anything you say seriously when you
>> >> insist on a veil of anonymity.  Seaside is not some political group,
>> >> and you aren't a revolutionary.  Let us know who you are, and make
>> >> your comments constructively, rather than destructively.
>> >>
>> >> You've already seen how people are taking the kind of rhetoric you're
>> >> dishing out, so I guess I'll ask you this: how's that working out for
>> >> you so far?
>> >>
>> >> James Robertson
>> >> Cincom Smalltalk Product Evangelist
>> >> http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
>> >> Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Apr 17, 2009, at 8:23 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> I have added some first concrete proposals to my new critical blog
>> >>> on Seaside: http://thesmalltalkblog.blogspot.com
>> >>>
>> >>> May I also propose to get away from these personal and emotional
>> >>> discussions here and to advance to some proper work. I have started
>> >>> with my proposals on my blog.
>> >>>
>> >>> As Keith wrote very wisely (thank you Keith):
>> >>>
>> >>>> Mr Cucumber is raising issues. We need to identify the actual
>> >>>> issues and
>> >>> see if they need addressing.<
>> >>> See my latest postings on my blog! I am getting into the subjects!
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> And Keith, thank you again for this:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Personally I dont see much anger in his blog, I see honesty as
>> >>>> expressed from his perception. In fact there is far less anger
>> >>>> expressed here than I would expect.<
>> >>>
>> >>> I had expected this reaction from the mailing list, because I know
>> >>> well how such communities work. They are - at least by the "leading
>> >>> members" - social entities where the argument as such is mostly less
>> >>> important than who raises it. We are all humans! That's natural but
>> >>> not helpful.
>> >>>
>> >>> Ths is exactly what Sebastian Sastre wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> And you did it annonymously, which leaves your ideas in a weaker
>> >>>> position. What did you pretend with that? to create the annonymous
>> >>>> seaside critic comunity?
>> >>>> leaded by whom?
>> >>>
>> >>> @Sebastian: If you value an argument from a person who's name you
>> >>> know higher because just of that, pardonnez-moi, je m'excuse, but
>> >>> this would a clear sign of incompetence.
>> >>>
>> >>>> leaded by whom?
>> >>> Only led by arguments!
>> >>>
>> >>> This is also another reason why I will stay anonymous. I want to
>> >>> improve the subject and not gain personal respect by some community
>> >>> (as Thorsten proposed and wrote that this is a prerequisite to be
>> >>> taken seriously). Forget it!
>> >>>
>> >>> Either people believe in my arguments and want to profit from my
>> >>> very comprehensive experience - or not. In the latter case we will
>> >>> continue in our own style as we did in the past. Nothing lost.
>> >>>
>> >>> Or I might find some people who are willing to jump onto our boat
>> >>> and travel with us, because we share the same believes and goals. In
>> >>> this case we would just subclass (as we already did in many cases)
>> >>> where major changes are wanted and that's it!
>> >>>
>> >>> Seaside is too important for us to either forget about it or to live
>> >>> with - sorry for my openess - this horrible lausy amateurish and
>> >>> undocumented code of Release 2.8. This is unacceptable for us to
>> >>> build products upon.
>> >>>
>> >>> These authors of Seaside (whom I don't know) really had some crazy
>> >>> ideas!
>> >>>
>> >>> Just remember this f... (4-letter word left out with respect to
>> >>> those who believe in PC)stupid idiotic url path "/Seaside/do".
>> >>>
>> >>> What a crazy idea!
>> >>>
>> >>> It took us several days in the beginning to get this rubbish out! It
>> >>> was done in such a fancy way that was really difficult for somebody
>> >>> not (yet) knowing the system. And there were many complains about
>> >>> that here on the list.
>> >>>
>> >>> What an idiotic and unrealistic idea! And why so badly implemented.
>> >>>
>> >>> Now, you can't expect me to have respect for people doing such a
>> >>> bullshit! And my expectation from life experience*** was that these
>> >>> people would be immune to advice. This is why I chose the public
>> >>> block to discuss improvements outside this "social community" here!
>> >>>
>> >>> Therefore, don't expect me to participate here too frequently. I
>> >>> have no time for such discussions. I want to get my project moving
>> >>> and that means improving Seaside.
>> >>>
>> >>> Everybody is welcome to join - and I will be most eager and happy to
>> >>> learn from other people's experiences and follow their advice. But
>> >>> now on this previous low-level of "Seaside standards". Non, merci!
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ***
>> >>> I software development experience is very much like cylinder
>> >>> capacity in motor construction! There is only one way to improve
>> >>> cylinder capacity - and that is by more cylinder capacity!
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört? Der kann`s mit
>> >>> allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger01
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> seaside mailing list
>> >>> [hidden email]
>> >>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> seaside mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>> >
>> > --
>> > Neu: GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate +
>> > Telefonanschluss für nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!*
>> http://dslspecial.gmx.de/freedsl-surfflat/?ac=OM.AD.PD003K11308T4569a
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > seaside mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> seaside mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
> --
> Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger01
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>

> So peter now you are getting a human.
>
> Why don't you post a list of details (but not harsh and useless)  
> concerns?
> So that we can sort out the ones that could be turned into action for  
> the next release
> or at least discussed. The point of philippe on string vs symbols was  
> interesting.
>
> I did not get your point on seaside/do?
> May be you mean seaside/go in VW personnally I never understood  why  
> this was not like
> in squeak but I lived with it.
>
> Stef
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

> Hi,
>
> On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 11:29 AM, stephane ducasse
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> So peter now you are getting a human.
>
> just as a side note... "Peter Jedermann" can be translated as "John
> Doe", or, more literally, "Peter Anybody". It's quite certainly not a
> real name. :-)
>
> Best,
>
> Michael
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>

>
> "
> Hi everybody,
>
> I've been working with Seaside on VW and it seems to me that some  
> Smalltalk coding conventions have been forgotten. It makes the code  
> hard to read (at least for me). Here are some examples:
>
> - factory methods should generally start with "new".
> WATree class root: anObject
> would be more clear if named:
> WATree class newWithRoot: anObject

> - In VW, it seems that namespaces bindings are quite slow.
>
> - WARequest behaviour seems to be spread in the system. It makes  
> debbuging harder than necessary.
>
> - Usage of string instead of symbols. Example:
> WARenderContinuation -> shouldRedirect: aRequest
> ^ aRequest isGet not or: [(aRequest fields includesKey: '_n') not]
>
> The string '_n' is used in many places in the code. Why not a  
> symbol? Is there any technical reason?
>
> - ...
>
> That were some points that annoyed me in Seaside, if you want i can  
> provide a detailed list, fill some tickets and provide some patches...
>
> Cheers,
> Peter Jedermann
>
> "
>
> Easy enough isn't it? Certainly not ideal but people would certainly  
> listen and discuss about the issues you address.
>
> Have fun,
>
>
> Francois
>
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>

> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 5:23 PM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I have added some first concrete proposals to my new critical blog on
> Seaside: http://thesmalltalkblog.blogspot.com
> >
> > May I also propose to get away from these personal and emotional
> discussions here and to advance to some proper work. I have started with my
> proposals on my blog.
>
> Great.  Let's look at them.
>
> The first post I come to is "Proposal 3: Stick to Smalltalk naming
> conventions".
>
> Some excerpts:
>
> "One of the most commonly used and undisputed convention says that a
> factory method, which creates a new instance, should start with the
> word "new".
>
> This common convention is consistently ignored in Seaside!
>
> This is very very bad style! Absolutely amateurish and far away from
> "engineering"!
>
> <snip>
>
> Why the hell can't you adhere to what the great majority of
> Smalltalkers has been successfully doing for more than 25 years?!
>
> Therefore, I strongly urge you to finally adhere to what is commonly
> regarded as Smalltalk convention! You are definitely not any cleverer
> or better than the forefathers of Smalltalk at PARC (and, of course,
> neither am I)! You are most likely some bright but rather young guys
> with little experience. "
>
> Gee.  I better go and look at some of those 25 year old classes to see
> what conventions, in fact, the forefathers at PARC were using.  Let's
> look in Squeak, which is the closest modern equivalent to the original
> Smalltalks.
>
> Point's factory method is #x:y: .  No "new" there.  Amateurish, I
> guess.  But maybe it's an isolated case.
>
> How about Association?  I see #key:value:.  Still no "new"; I guess
> the forefathers were having an off day.
>
> Here's one on Fraction: #numerator:denominator:.  The initials on that
> one look familiar: "di".  Never mind, though, Dan Ingalls is probably
> some bright young guy with little experience.  Maybe you should set
> him straight?
>
> Avi
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

> My answer is on my blog!
>
>
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>> Datum: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 02:56:40 -0700
>> Von: Avi Bryant <[hidden email]>
>> An: Seaside - general discussion <[hidden email]>
>> Betreff: Re: [Seaside] A new critical blog discussing Seaside - now concrete  proposals
>
>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 5:23 PM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > I have added some first concrete proposals to my new critical blog on
>> Seaside: http://thesmalltalkblog.blogspot.com
>> >
>> > May I also propose to get away from these personal and emotional
>> discussions here and to advance to some proper work. I have started with my
>> proposals on my blog.
>>
>> Great.  Let's look at them.
>>
>> The first post I come to is "Proposal 3: Stick to Smalltalk naming
>> conventions".
>>
>> Some excerpts:
>>
>> "One of the most commonly used and undisputed convention says that a
>> factory method, which creates a new instance, should start with the
>> word "new".
>>
>> This common convention is consistently ignored in Seaside!
>>
>> This is very very bad style! Absolutely amateurish and far away from
>> "engineering"!
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> Why the hell can't you adhere to what the great majority of
>> Smalltalkers has been successfully doing for more than 25 years?!
>>
>> Therefore, I strongly urge you to finally adhere to what is commonly
>> regarded as Smalltalk convention! You are definitely not any cleverer
>> or better than the forefathers of Smalltalk at PARC (and, of course,
>> neither am I)! You are most likely some bright but rather young guys
>> with little experience. "
>>
>> Gee.  I better go and look at some of those 25 year old classes to see
>> what conventions, in fact, the forefathers at PARC were using.  Let's
>> look in Squeak, which is the closest modern equivalent to the original
>> Smalltalks.
>>
>> Point's factory method is #x:y: .  No "new" there.  Amateurish, I
>> guess.  But maybe it's an isolated case.
>>
>> How about Association?  I see #key:value:.  Still no "new"; I guess
>> the forefathers were having an off day.
>>
>> Here's one on Fraction: #numerator:denominator:.  The initials on that
>> one look familiar: "di".  Never mind, though, Dan Ingalls is probably
>> some bright young guy with little experience.  Maybe you should set
>> him straight?
>>
>> Avi
>> _______________________________________________
>> seaside mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
> --
> Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger01
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>