A point a.k.a excuse to you

Cédrick,

Look at the bright side: people let you use Smalltalk :)  IMHO, you might not need to worry too much about deployment.  I know much more about that in Dolphin than Squeak/Pharo, but I think the details of it get far too much attention in general.  What OS?  In Windows and Linux/Gnome, I just create shortcuts that load an image for Pharo, and it works fine.  Just name the VM and the image to load, and user sees it as any other piece of software.

The trick in Pharo is to save an image in the state appropriate for the end user.  There are other far better qualified to help you over that bump.

Happy Smalltalking!

Bill



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cédrick Béler
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:19 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] A point a.k.a excuse to you

2009/3/4 Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]>:
> tx perl hacker :)
>
> Stef

actually, I did only 2 weeks of Perl and I'm back to Pharo since... :)

Thanks to smalltalk, the very good point is I've nearly finished
something that is due in june !!! (I mean minus the 20% that takes
most of the time plus all the fancy stuffs I'd like to do around
diagrams).

I think I did the main skeleton in a week :) (it a planer prototype)
whereas my supervisor asked me for a class diagram... I just did in st
and used OB to draw the diagram... and two days later it was nearly
working :)   I think that's just impossible in another language (with
the same developer ;) ).

2 bad points though...

- people let me do it but nobody even look at the code :(
- don't know yet how to deploy ... Here I'd really like a micro
image... I might do with Pavel image or even think to use gnu-st...
Last solution is to port in perl mainly for people to maintain it if I
leave. Still don't know but I'll come back with question when
necessary...

See you,

Cédrick

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Keith,

I respectfully disagree on one fundamental point: the processes fed into a black hole.  Ideas were ignored, well intentioned people were ridiculed.  What Stef et al. have done (beyond a lot of great work) is fix that problem.

Bill

 


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Keith Hodges
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:37 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] A point a.k.a excuse to you

 
> I think Matthiew and Keith... and some others, really pushed the idea
> to live with forks (instead of building another image)...  After a
> year or two, people start to go in their way... + people have maybe
> more time to collaborate. IMO, the arrival of Igor and Eliot is also a
> big win...0
>  
But note Igor and Elliot are folks thinking in an inclusive manner.
Neither are they simply squeak/pharo focused.
> I think 2008 was a good smalltalk year... Pharo is a good choice
> though because you offer something to developer that was simply absent
> before and moreover, "people" were really reluctant to go in that
> direction for squeak hence all your problems... So still, even if
>  
Actually no, I did not see any reluctance to go in that direction at
all. In fact the tabled proposals for 3.11+ had identical goals to
pharo's but a different way of getting there. The Pharo team required
that they have full control, whereas the 3.11 team assumes that they
dont have control, they are facilitating through tools. Why? We have had a mechanism for proposing and loading such changes for
3 years. If you wanted to try new menus you could submit the changeset
to mantis and make that available for everyone. You didnt have to ask
anyone. I would happily use such a contribution.

What we have been lacking is the build infrastructure for testing and
harnessing such contributions. This was on the road map for 3.10 but
never happened, because the 3.10 team continued to be focussed on the
image as a deliverable rather than the process.

Keith




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Keith,

Call it Squeak or Pharo, I (and apparently many others here) want a clean Smalltalk.  Kernel+packages is fine; I could also live with a well-factored big image from which I simply chop out things I do not need.  If the system is good, I will adapt to the ways people chose to give it to me.

You apparently want Squeak.  We want things fixed and options embraced.  Years on, those things are still off in the distance for Squeak.  I doubt that would ever change without Pharo.

Bill



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Keith Hodges
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:42 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] A point a.k.a excuse to you

Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
> It strikes me (disagree if you feel the need) that Pharo can do all of the fun-goofy-crazy stuff that people want to protect (at cost) in Squeak.  I forget who it was, but one Squeaker essentially said to me "don't break our toy."  All I wanted was what Pharo is rapidly becoming: a robust system with good tools and themed feel.  You want focus jumping all over - fine, just make it optional so my users don't have to live with it.  Pharo is doing just that and more.
>
> This will really stir the pudding in some minds: I think the best thing that could happen is that Squeak 6.0 == Pharo 3.0 plus packages to do whatever Squeak needs that
Where do you get this Squeak6.0 =Pharo3.0 + packages.

The vision for moving squeak forward has been Squeak Small Kernel +
Packages for several years now.

If Squeak6.0 (kernel) + packges = Pharo3.0 + packages then I will be a
happy person.

The problem with it is that Pharo will have a Pharo package system, a
Pharo SUinit, a Pharo Compiler, and a Pharo GUI, and none of the
packages will work between squeak and pharo.

Keith


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2009/3/4 Lukas Renggli <[hidden email]>:
>> The problem with it is that Pharo will have a Pharo package system, a
>> Pharo SUinit, a Pharo Compiler, and a Pharo GUI,

I've heard Polymorph could be a candidate for integration in BPP
proposal I guess...  Also Andreas pointed out a mail from Michael on
Pharo mailing-list (event system) as his first example of BPP...


qq [

Here is an example BPP:

-----------------------------------------------------------
BPP: Replace InputSensor/EventSensor
====================================

1. Rationale: InputSensor/EventSensor are fraught with peril. Many
projects (including Sophie, Hydra etc) have had to fight with its
shortcomings. This project is the integration of a rewrite of both of
these classes done in Sophie.

2. Deliverable: Integrate code originally posted at
http://www.mail-archive.com/pharo-project@.../msg03413.html

3. Project Lead: Michael Rueger

4. Board Liaison: Igor Stasenko

5. Schedule:
  - March 09: Update Mantis with code+Installer scripts
  - Milestone: April 1st; All code is committed.
  - April 09: Bug fixing as needed.
  - Project completion: May 1st.

-----------------------------------------------------------

]

Somtimes, better to split effort when a common one is impossible ;)



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Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
> Keith,
>
> I respectfully disagree on one fundamental point: the processes fed into a black hole.  Ideas were ignored, well intentioned people were ridiculed.  What Stef et al. have done (beyond a lot of great work) is fix that problem.
>
> Bill
>  
But Bill,

 you are criticising the OLD process, which is the process that Stef and
Marcus were custodians of for two years. It was they who made it more
difficult to process by managing the image in packages without the
needed tools.

The pharo process is exactly the same black hole with exactly the same
"not invented here attitude".

In squeak land we have an all new process and some of us have been
working on that all new process for 2+ years,

Keith


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I have being doing some tests with SqueakDBX and now It seems to work perfect.

cheers,

Mariano

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Plonk


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Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
> Keith,
>
> Call it Squeak or Pharo, I (and apparently many others here) want a clean Smalltalk.  Kernel+packages is fine; I could also live with a well-factored big image from which I simply chop out things I do not need.  If the system is good, I will adapt to the ways people chose to give it to me.
>
> You apparently want Squeak.
No I dont want squeak, I want an environment in which contributions and
concepts are appreciated, and shareable. I want this "not invented here"
attitude scrapped.

To be clear, I wrote SUnit-improved 3 years ago. I wasn't so arrogant as
to say it is "The" SUnit. that everyone should use, I offered it as an
alternativeand it has remained loadable from universes. The code may not
be perfect but the concepts were perfectly reasonable:

1. Non GUI Test Runner, for use in an automated remote build system.
2. Classification of tests - for a world in which there are different
forks images etc so that test suites can be a shared knowledge base of
what works where.
3. A flexible test suite building interface that can be used to run
other test suites like SSpec within the same tools.
4. A Cleaner Organisation under the category "Testing" e.g.
"Testing-Common, Testing-Commmon-GUI, Testing-SUnit-Tests,
Testing-SSpec-Tests etc.

So... along comes pharo, and without any discussion at all in the
general SUnit users forum, starts to "do their own thing with SUnit".

Well thanks for nothing, it really makes you feel like contributing. Its
not squeak that is the black hole, squeak isn't actively snubbing
contributions.

Keith
 


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Keith,

I have never met Stef; I know him only through correspondence, direct and otherwise.  Come to think of it, I probably know him pretty well.  I *never* got any sense that he was the problem with Squeak.  I don't buy it; I saw him trying to fix the problems I have described, and failing that, he started Pharo.

Bill



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Keith Hodges
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 11:05 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] A point a.k.a excuse to you

Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
> Keith,
>
> I respectfully disagree on one fundamental point: the processes fed into a black hole.  Ideas were ignored, well intentioned people were ridiculed.  What Stef et al. have done (beyond a lot of great work) is fix that problem.
>
> Bill
>  
But Bill,

 you are criticising the OLD process, which is the process that Stef and
Marcus were custodians of for two years. It was they who made it more
difficult to process by managing the image in packages without the
needed tools.

The pharo process is exactly the same black hole with exactly the same
"not invented here attitude".

In squeak land we have an all new process and some of us have been
working on that all new process for 2+ years,

Keith


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Lukas Renggli wrote:
>> The problem with it is that Pharo will have a Pharo package system, a
>> Pharo SUinit, a Pharo Compiler, and a Pharo GUI, and none of the
>> packages will work between squeak and pharo.
>>    
>
> Why should it run on Squeak, if I have all my code running in Pharo?
>  
We have two equal and opposite questions you could ask. I would ask "Why
shouldn't it run on squeak?"....


Keith


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On Wed, Mar 04, 2009 at 05:14:18PM +0100, St?phane Ducasse wrote:
> Plonk

I had no idea what Stef meant by this, so I asked on IRC. I
think he meant this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plonk_(usenet)

--
Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/

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Keith,

The water is warm, but you will find us determined to fix what bugs us.  If you accuse us of snubbing contributions, you miss the spirit of a much needed cleaning.

Bill



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Keith Hodges
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 11:21 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] A point a.k.a excuse to you

Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
> Keith,
>
> Call it Squeak or Pharo, I (and apparently many others here) want a clean Smalltalk.  Kernel+packages is fine; I could also live with a well-factored big image from which I simply chop out things I do not need.  If the system is good, I will adapt to the ways people chose to give it to me.
>
> You apparently want Squeak.
No I dont want squeak, I want an environment in which contributions and
concepts are appreciated, and shareable. I want this "not invented here"
attitude scrapped.

To be clear, I wrote SUnit-improved 3 years ago. I wasn't so arrogant as
to say it is "The" SUnit. that everyone should use, I offered it as an
alternativeand it has remained loadable from universes. The code may not
be perfect but the concepts were perfectly reasonable:

1. Non GUI Test Runner, for use in an automated remote build system.
2. Classification of tests - for a world in which there are different
forks images etc so that test suites can be a shared knowledge base of
what works where.
3. A flexible test suite building interface that can be used to run
other test suites like SSpec within the same tools.
4. A Cleaner Organisation under the category "Testing" e.g.
"Testing-Common, Testing-Commmon-GUI, Testing-SUnit-Tests,
Testing-SSpec-Tests etc.

So... along comes pharo, and without any discussion at all in the
general SUnit users forum, starts to "do their own thing with SUnit".

Well thanks for nothing, it really makes you feel like contributing. Its
not squeak that is the black hole, squeak isn't actively snubbing
contributions.

Keith
 


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Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
> Keith,
>
> I have never met Stef; I know him only through correspondence, direct and otherwise.  Come to think of it, I probably know him pretty well.  I *never* got any sense that he was the problem with Squeak.  I don't buy it; I saw him trying to fix the problems I have described, and failing that, he started Pharo.
>
> Bill
>  
I didnt say that he "was" the problem. I said he was the custodian of
the process (one development team bottleneck) that you called a black hole.

Keith


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2009/3/4 Keith Hodges <[hidden email]>:
> Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
>> Keith,
>>
>> I have never met Stef; I know him only through correspondence, direct and otherwise.  Come to think of it, I probably know him pretty well.  I *never* got any sense that he was the problem with Squeak.  I don't buy it; I saw him trying to fix the problems I have described, and failing that, he started Pharo.
>>
>> Bill
>>
> I didnt say that he "was" the problem. I said he was the custodian of
> the process (one development team bottleneck) that you called a black hole.

I saw them more as prisoners, not custodians...  you can object in
Pharo, it's the same as squeak but... not the same size, same
interests and again... a quick decision process, quick integration...
Let's see what BPP will do but meanwhile, I'm happy with the
reactivity...

last one for me on this thread...  time to go ;)

bye

>
> Keith
>
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My 2 cents:

i don't care what is the name of software i running , be it Squeak or Pharo.
I care only about 2 things:
a) if i like something (because it works well), i want it to be in my
image by a single mouse click
b) if i dislike something (because its crap) , i want to be able to
unload it by a single mouse click

if software works different than in (a) like (can't load/unload
without problems), this is automatically falls to category (b)  :)

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

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