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[ANN 1.2] prebuilt core 1.2 final

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Stéphane Ducasse

Re: [ANN 1.2] prebuilt core 1.2 final

Lukas

Marcus is RIGHT.
How can we make progress without adding temporarily new libraries and migrating?
How can we make progress if people do not use the release candidate phase as it should be?
Tell me because we are all ears opened.

Stef

>> I would not unload packaged.
>>
>> Everything not tested is broken, and so if you do things like that I am
>> sure you will have problems.
>>
>> And nobody ever unloaded anything from Core.
>
> You must be joking right? In the mission you say "stable and small
> core", but the numbers say something entirely different: PharoCore 1.0
> is 11 MB, PharoCore 1.1 is 14 MB, PharoCore 1.2 is 16 MB. I mentioned
> it before in this list, but I already had to unload stuff in PharoCore
> 1.1. Honestly, I don't really see the point of a PharoCore image if it
> contains more and more not unloadable non-core code.
>
> Lukas
>
> --
> Lukas Renggli
> www.lukas-renggli.ch
>

Stéphane Ducasse

Re: [ANN 1.2] prebuilt core 1.2 final

In reply to this post by Lukas Renggli

lukas

Can you tell us where?
What method is doing a problem?

The point of simpleMorphic is that there is a value in it and if we do not give a chance to people to have a look
at it then the money spent by esug is lost (of course esug was not paying for simpleMorphic but this is like that).

Stef

On Mar 18, 2011, at 7:07 AM, Lukas Renggli wrote:

> Ahh, looks like SimpleMorphic has some (probably unintentional)
> overrides of core methods. Unloading the package pretty much breaks
> everything :-(
>
> Lukas
>
> On 18 March 2011 07:02, Lukas Renggli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Very good! We then can release the 1.2 Full soon, too.
>>> I wonder if we should adopt your OB codebase for that? Or do
>>> we wait for 1.2.1?
>>
>> I would wait a bit. I noticed that the debugger is quite broken. I
>> only get the pre-debug window, but clicking on any button opens
>> another pre-debug window. I don't have time to investigate, is this
>> also in core or some side-effect of loading/unloading packages? The
>> method #topView seems to be missing.
>>
>> Lukas
>>
>> --
>> Lukas Renggli
>> www.lukas-renggli.ch
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Lukas Renggli
> www.lukas-renggli.ch
>

Lukas Renggli

Re: [ANN 1.2] prebuilt core 1.2 final

> Can you tell us where?
> What method is doing a problem?

Model>>#topView seems to be the only override of a core method.

Lukas

--
Lukas Renggli
www.lukas-renggli.ch

Marcus Denker-4

Re: [ANN 1.2] prebuilt core 1.2 final

In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse

On Mar 18, 2011, at 11:18 AM, Lukas Renggli wrote:

>> Can you tell us where?
>> What method is doing a problem?
>
> Model>>#topView seems to be the only override of a core method.
>

Ok:

http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=3828

I will add that tonight.

--
Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de
INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD.

Miguel Cobá

Re: [ANN 1.2] prebuilt core 1.2 final

In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4

+1

El vie, 18-03-2011 a las 08:24 +0100, Marcus Denker escribió:

> On Mar 18, 2011, at 8:16 AM, Lukas Renggli wrote:
>
> >> I would not unload packaged.
> >>
> >> Everything not tested is broken, and so if you do things like that I am
> >> sure you will have problems.
> >>
> >> And nobody ever unloaded anything from Core.
> >
> > You must be joking right? In the mission you say "stable and small
> > core", but the numbers say something entirely different: PharoCore 1.0
> > is 11 MB, PharoCore 1.1 is 14 MB, PharoCore 1.2 is 16 MB. I mentioned
> > it before in this list, but I already had to unload stuff in PharoCore
> > 1.1. Honestly, I don't really see the point of a PharoCore image if it
> > contains more and more not unloadable non-core code.
> >
> Size of the image comes in part from ever growing MC history. The only
> other big thing should be the Minimal Morphic code, which is in there
> temporarily.
>
> Else: People are welcome to help.
>
> We do what we do and then we do a release even if it is imperfect.
> Perfection is death, and delaying the release forever "because we could do better"
> will not mean that we do better, just that we don't release ever.
>
> Pharo 1.2 is *not* a goal in itself. It is just a snapshot on the way to a goal. Therefore
> it's just a mess that is tested for some month so it does not have any obvious bugs.
> Nothing else.
>
> Marcus
>
> --
> Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de
> INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD.
>
>

--
Miguel Cobá
http://twitter.com/MiguelCobaMtz
http://miguel.leugim.com.mx

Lukas Renggli

Re: [ANN 1.2] prebuilt core 1.2 final

Another issue is the class GLMOrangeUITheme being in the 'Morphic'
package and an indirect subclass of UITheme that is in the 'Polymorph'
package which itself depends on the 'Morphic' package ==> circular
dependency ==> loading/unloading impossible.

Lukas

On 18 March 2011 17:14, Miguel Cobá <[hidden email]> wrote:

> +1
>
> El vie, 18-03-2011 a las 08:24 +0100, Marcus Denker escribió:
>> On Mar 18, 2011, at 8:16 AM, Lukas Renggli wrote:
>>
>> >> I would not unload packaged.
>> >>
>> >> Everything not tested is broken, and so if you do things like that I am
>> >> sure you will have problems.
>> >>
>> >> And nobody ever unloaded anything from Core.
>> >
>> > You must be joking right? In the mission you say "stable and small
>> > core", but the numbers say something entirely different: PharoCore 1.0
>> > is 11 MB, PharoCore 1.1 is 14 MB, PharoCore 1.2 is 16 MB. I mentioned
>> > it before in this list, but I already had to unload stuff in PharoCore
>> > 1.1. Honestly, I don't really see the point of a PharoCore image if it
>> > contains more and more not unloadable non-core code.
>> >
>> Size of the image comes in part from ever growing MC history. The only
>> other big thing should be the Minimal Morphic code, which is in there
>> temporarily.
>>
>> Else: People are welcome to help.
>>
>> We do what we do and then we do a release even if it is imperfect.
>> Perfection is death, and delaying the release forever "because we could do better"
>> will not mean that we do better, just that we don't release ever.
>>
>> Pharo 1.2 is *not* a goal in itself. It is just a snapshot on the way to a goal. Therefore
>> it's just a mess that is tested for some month so it does not have any obvious bugs.
>> Nothing else.
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>> --
>> Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de
>> INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD.
>>
>>
>
> --
> Miguel Cobá
> http://twitter.com/MiguelCobaMtz
> http://miguel.leugim.com.mx
>
>
>
>
>

--
Lukas Renggli
www.lukas-renggli.ch

Igor Stasenko

Re: [ANN 1.2] prebuilt core 1.2 final

On 18 March 2011 20:47, Lukas Renggli <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Another issue is the class GLMOrangeUITheme being in the 'Morphic'
> package and an indirect subclass of UITheme that is in the 'Polymorph'
> package which itself depends on the 'Morphic' package ==> circular
> dependency ==> loading/unloading impossible.
>

it was fixed few days later... strange that for 1.2 it left with
bogus organization.

> Lukas
>
> On 18 March 2011 17:14, Miguel Cobá <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> +1
>>
>> El vie, 18-03-2011 a las 08:24 +0100, Marcus Denker escribió:
>>> On Mar 18, 2011, at 8:16 AM, Lukas Renggli wrote:
>>>
>>> >> I would not unload packaged.
>>> >>
>>> >> Everything not tested is broken, and so if you do things like that I am
>>> >> sure you will have problems.
>>> >>
>>> >> And nobody ever unloaded anything from Core.
>>> >
>>> > You must be joking right? In the mission you say "stable and small
>>> > core", but the numbers say something entirely different: PharoCore 1.0
>>> > is 11 MB, PharoCore 1.1 is 14 MB, PharoCore 1.2 is 16 MB. I mentioned
>>> > it before in this list, but I already had to unload stuff in PharoCore
>>> > 1.1. Honestly, I don't really see the point of a PharoCore image if it
>>> > contains more and more not unloadable non-core code.
>>> >
>>> Size of the image comes in part from ever growing MC history. The only
>>> other big thing should be the Minimal Morphic code, which is in there
>>> temporarily.
>>>
>>> Else: People are welcome to help.
>>>
>>> We do what we do and then we do a release even if it is imperfect.
>>> Perfection is death, and delaying the release forever "because we could do better"
>>> will not mean that we do better, just that we don't release ever.
>>>
>>> Pharo 1.2 is *not* a goal in itself. It is just a snapshot on the way to a goal. Therefore
>>> it's just a mess that is tested for some month so it does not have any obvious bugs.
>>> Nothing else.
>>>
>>> Marcus
>>>
>>> --
>>> Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de
>>> INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Miguel Cobá
>> http://twitter.com/MiguelCobaMtz
>> http://miguel.leugim.com.mx
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Lukas Renggli
> www.lukas-renggli.ch
>
>

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Tudor Girba

Re: [ANN 1.2] prebuilt core 1.2 final

In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4

Hi Marcus,

I completely agree.

Now, just one thing. We have to start with putting in place a full fledged dev image as soon as a new Core version is started. Like this we can use that one from the beginning. For example, in Moose we switch to the new version as soon as the dev is available.

Cheers,
Doru

On 18 Mar 2011, at 08:13, Marcus Denker wrote:

>
>>>
>>> Yes, but it was not done for 1.2 and 1.2 is *finished*.
>>>
>>> If we want to do that, we need to do that *not after the release is released*
>>> but before.
>
> This whole thing just shows that "I only look at 1.2 when it is released" *DOES NOT WORK*.
> 1.2 Core was "Release Canditate" for *two months*. Release Canditate means "this will be
> released *unchanged* if no problems are found". So isn't *that* the point to do things that
> could need a fix in the release?
>
> I am really tempted to declare 1.3 stable now and abandon any concept of release, as it's
> a complete waste of time.
>
> Marcus
>
> --
> Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de
> INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD.
>
>

--
www.tudorgirba.com

"Every thing should have the right to be different."

Stéphane Ducasse

Re: [ANN 1.2] prebuilt core 1.2 final

> Hi Marcus,
>
> I completely agree.
>
> Now, just one thing. We have to start with putting in place a full fledged dev image as soon as a new Core version is started. Like this we can use that one from the beginning. For example, in Moose we switch to the new version as soon as the dev is available.

I hope that the situation will improve soon.
We should have a new browser + refactoring soon that will be in the core in a modular fashion
so that plus shout could be a good basis.

Stef