Smalltalk › Pharo › Pharo Smalltalk Users

[ANN] Teapot 0.8 micro web framework

_‹ Previous Topic Next Topic _›

Classic

List

Threaded

18 messages Options

Attila Magyar

[ANN] Teapot 0.8 micro web framework

Hello,

I'd like to announce a new micro web framework called Teapot. It follows a similar philosophy than other lightweight frameworks like Sinatra/Bottle/Flask/Spark. Teapot is built on top of the Zn HTTP components, and less than 500 lines long.

More info:

http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~zeroflag/Teapot

Attila

Esteban A. Maringolo

Re: [ANN] Teapot 0.8 micro web framework

Wow! I like it.
And very well documented.

I like many things about it.
But why use uppercase selectors for HTTP methods? I can guess you want
to "mimic" the HTTP messages, but it reads weird...

Thank you!

Esteban A. Maringolo

2014-08-24 15:48 GMT-03:00 Attila Magyar <[hidden email]>:

> Hello,
>
> I'd like to announce a new micro web framework called Teapot. It follows a
> similar philosophy than other lightweight frameworks like
> Sinatra/Bottle/Flask/Spark. Teapot is built on top of the Zn HTTP
> components, and less than 500 lines long.
>
> More info:
>
> http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~zeroflag/Teapot
>
> Attila
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ANN-Teapot-0-8-micro-web-framework-tp4774449.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>

Attila Magyar

Re: [ANN] Teapot 0.8 micro web framework

Esteban A. Maringolo wrote

But why use uppercase selectors for HTTP methods?

I was struggling with the syntax for a while than I end up having this. I thought it can make easier to see where the route definitions start and end if there are many. And it looks like a HTTP method, as you said too.

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

Re: [ANN] Teapot 0.8 micro web framework

In reply to this post by Attila Magyar

Hi Attila,

This is great work and well documented too. Beautiful. This is an excellent layer on top of Zn.

Are there any tests ? Examples ?

How do you load your dependencies, like NeoJSON or STON ?

If you need anything from Zn that is not yet provided, please ask. I would be happy to help. It is impressive that you did all this without any direct questions !

Cool name too !

Sven

PS: Most people don't seem to know, but you can load a #stable version in one expression:

Gofer it
smalltalkhubUser: 'zeroflag' project: 'Teapot';
configuration;
loadStable.

It is just more elegant I think. There are some variants of this API as well, check the Gofer class.

On 24 Aug 2014, at 20:48, Attila Magyar <[hidden email]> wrote:

--
Sven Van Caekenberghe
Proudly supporting Pharo
http://pharo.org
http://association.pharo.org
http://consortium.pharo.org

Tudor Girba-2

Re: [ANN] Teapot 0.8 micro web framework

One word comes to mind to describe this piece of work: Elegant!

Doru

On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:23 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Attila,

This is great work and well documented too. Beautiful. This is an excellent layer on top of Zn.

Are there any tests ? Examples ?

How do you load your dependencies, like NeoJSON or STON ?

If you need anything from Zn that is not yet provided, please ask. I would be happy to help. It is impressive that you did all this without any direct questions !

Cool name too !

Sven

PS: Most people don't seem to know, but you can load a #stable version in one expression:

Gofer it
smalltalkhubUser: 'zeroflag' project: 'Teapot';
configuration;
loadStable.

It is just more elegant I think. There are some variants of this API as well, check the Gofer class.

On 24 Aug 2014, at 20:48, Attila Magyar <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'd like to announce a new micro web framework called Teapot. It follows a
> similar philosophy than other lightweight frameworks like
> Sinatra/Bottle/Flask/Spark. Teapot is built on top of the Zn HTTP
> components, and less than 500 lines long.
>
> More info:
>
> http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~zeroflag/Teapot
>
> Attila
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ANN-Teapot-0-8-micro-web-framework-tp4774449.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

--
Sven Van Caekenberghe
Proudly supporting Pharo
http://pharo.org
http://association.pharo.org
http://consortium.pharo.org

www.tudorgirba.com

"Every thing has its own flow"

Attila Magyar

Re: [ANN] Teapot 0.8 micro web framework

In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote

Are there any tests ? Examples ?

There is a test package, but it is not part of the metacello config. You can see it, if you add the repositiory and load the project from there. There are no large examples so far, only the REST like book app on the smalltalkhub wiki.

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote

How do you load your dependencies, like NeoJSON or STON ?

I consider them as optional dependencies therefore they are not loaded. If someone wants to use them they will need to load them from the config browser. From the code I don't refer to them directly but with the "Smalltalk at: #NeoJSON" expression, so the projects loads and works without them, if they are not used. Probably I will add some metacello stuff later to make it easier to load them.

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote

If you need anything from Zn that is not yet provided, please ask. I would be happy to help. It is impressive that you did all this without any direct questions !

Cool name too !

Sven

PS: Most people don't seem to know, but you can load a #stable version in one expression:

Gofer it
smalltalkhubUser: 'zeroflag' project: 'Teapot';
configuration;
loadStable.

It is just more elegant I think. There are some variants of this API as well, check the Gofer class.

Thanks, that's better.

philippeback

Re: [ANN] Teapot 0.8 micro web framework

Great tool to have.

Definitely easier than doing everything in Zn or Seaside REST for getting something done quick.

For hackathons, this is quite useful for sure!

We should have a lineup of tools like that that allow us to shine during such events in order to promote Pharo.

http://checkthis.com/hackathonbxl is one I go to in october.

The monitor on the right is mine during a previous hackathon and what is on it is... Pharo ! (The guy on the picture was my team mate. He is a Scala guy).

What would you think makes sense in such a stack beyond Teapot?

MongoTalk, ZnEasy, Roassal, Mapless, ...

Phil

On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:40 PM, Attila Magyar <[hidden email]> wrote:

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
> Are there any tests ? Examples ?

There is a test package, but it is not part of the metacello config. You can
see it, if you add the repositiory and load the project from there. There
are no large examples so far, only the REST like book app on the
smalltalkhub wiki.

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
> How do you load your dependencies, like NeoJSON or STON ?

I consider them as optional dependencies therefore they are not loaded. If
someone wants to use them they will need to load them from the config
browser. From the code I don't refer to them directly but with the
"Smalltalk at: #NeoJSON" expression, so the projects loads and works without
them, if they are not used. Probably I will add some metacello stuff later
to make it easier to load them.

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
> If you need anything from Zn that is not yet provided, please ask. I would
> be happy to help. It is impressive that you did all this without any
> direct questions !
>
> Cool name too !
>
> Sven
>
> PS: Most people don't seem to know, but you can load a #stable version in
> one expression:
>
> Gofer it
> smalltalkhubUser: 'zeroflag' project: 'Teapot';
> configuration;
> loadStable.
>
> It is just more elegant I think. There are some variants of this API as
> well, check the Gofer class.

Thanks, that's better.

--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ANN-Teapot-0-8-micro-web-framework-tp4774449p4774467.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

melkyades

Re: [ANN] Teapot 0.8 micro web framework

In reply to this post by Attila Magyar

Cool! Smalltalk web stack keeps getting better and better!

Cheers,

Javier

On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 7:48 PM, Attila Magyar <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello,

I'd like to announce a new micro web framework called Teapot. It follows a
similar philosophy than other lightweight frameworks like
Sinatra/Bottle/Flask/Spark. Teapot is built on top of the Zn HTTP
components, and less than 500 lines long.

More info:

http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~zeroflag/Teapot

Attila

--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ANN-Teapot-0-8-micro-web-framework-tp4774449.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Javier Pimás
Ciudad de Buenos Aires

grt

Re: [ANN] Teapot 0.8 micro web framework

Great work!!

Regards,

Thushar

On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 5:08 AM, Javier Pimás <[hidden email]> wrote:

Cool! Smalltalk web stack keeps getting better and better!

Cheers,
Javier

On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 7:48 PM, Attila Magyar <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello,

I'd like to announce a new micro web framework called Teapot. It follows a
similar philosophy than other lightweight frameworks like
Sinatra/Bottle/Flask/Spark. Teapot is built on top of the Zn HTTP
components, and less than 500 lines long.

More info:

http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~zeroflag/Teapot

Attila

--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ANN-Teapot-0-8-micro-web-framework-tp4774449.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

--
Javier Pimás
Ciudad de Buenos Aires

Sean P. DeNigris

Re: [ANN] Teapot 0.8 micro web framework

Administrator

In reply to this post by Tudor Girba-2

Tudor Girba-2 wrote

One word comes to mind to describe this piece of work: Elegant!

Really great feedback - why not add a few of these quotes to the doc as a little marketing :)

Cheers,
Sean

stepharo

Re: [ANN] Teapot 0.8 micro web framework

In reply to this post by Attila Magyar

Excellent!
I saw that yesterday and it can be a great engine to teach how to build
web server. I will look at it after October because this looks really cool.

BTW why don't you call it with the name of a little tribe :)

On 24/8/14 20:48, Attila Magyar wrote:

fstephany

Re: [ANN] Teapot 0.8 micro web framework

In reply to this post by philippeback

Phil,

I'm going there as well ;)
The idea is to see what we can do with GTInspector / Roassal (and maybe https://github.com/fstephany/OSMMaps).

Attila,

I played a little bit with Teapot last week during ESUG and was wondering what is your flow when you are designing/experimenting an API with Teapot? Do you reset the instance everytime you modify/add a route?

Thanks a lot for this, it feels like the right amount of abstraction between bare Zinc and fully loaded Seaside !

On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:06 AM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Great tool to have.

Definitely easier than doing everything in Zn or Seaside REST for getting something done quick.

For hackathons, this is quite useful for sure!

We should have a lineup of tools like that that allow us to shine during such events in order to promote Pharo.

http://checkthis.com/hackathonbxl is one I go to in october.

The monitor on the right is mine during a previous hackathon and what is on it is... Pharo ! (The guy on the picture was my team mate. He is a Scala guy).

What would you think makes sense in such a stack beyond Teapot?

MongoTalk, ZnEasy, Roassal, Mapless, ...

Phil

On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:40 PM, Attila Magyar <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
> Are there any tests ? Examples ?

There is a test package, but it is not part of the metacello config. You can
see it, if you add the repositiory and load the project from there. There
are no large examples so far, only the REST like book app on the
smalltalkhub wiki.

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
> How do you load your dependencies, like NeoJSON or STON ?

I consider them as optional dependencies therefore they are not loaded. If
someone wants to use them they will need to load them from the config
browser. From the code I don't refer to them directly but with the
"Smalltalk at: #NeoJSON" expression, so the projects loads and works without
them, if they are not used. Probably I will add some metacello stuff later
to make it easier to load them.

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
> If you need anything from Zn that is not yet provided, please ask. I would
> be happy to help. It is impressive that you did all this without any
> direct questions !
>
> Cool name too !
>
> Sven
>
> PS: Most people don't seem to know, but you can load a #stable version in
> one expression:
>
> Gofer it
> smalltalkhubUser: 'zeroflag' project: 'Teapot';
> configuration;
> loadStable.
>
> It is just more elegant I think. There are some variants of this API as
> well, check the Gofer class.

Thanks, that's better.

--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ANN-Teapot-0-8-micro-web-framework-tp4774449p4774467.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Santiago Bragagnolo

Re: [ANN] Teapot 0.8 micro web framework

So beatiful.

2014-08-25 13:37 GMT+02:00 François Stephany <[hidden email]>:

Phil,
I'm going there as well ;)
The idea is to see what we can do with GTInspector / Roassal (and maybe https://github.com/fstephany/OSMMaps).

Attila,
I played a little bit with Teapot last week during ESUG and was wondering what is your flow when you are designing/experimenting an API with Teapot? Do you reset the instance everytime you modify/add a route?

Thanks a lot for this, it feels like the right amount of abstraction between bare Zinc and fully loaded Seaside !

On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:06 AM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Great tool to have.

Definitely easier than doing everything in Zn or Seaside REST for getting something done quick.

For hackathons, this is quite useful for sure!

We should have a lineup of tools like that that allow us to shine during such events in order to promote Pharo.

http://checkthis.com/hackathonbxl is one I go to in october.

The monitor on the right is mine during a previous hackathon and what is on it is... Pharo ! (The guy on the picture was my team mate. He is a Scala guy).

What would you think makes sense in such a stack beyond Teapot?

MongoTalk, ZnEasy, Roassal, Mapless, ...

Phil

On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:40 PM, Attila Magyar <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
> Are there any tests ? Examples ?

There is a test package, but it is not part of the metacello config. You can
see it, if you add the repositiory and load the project from there. There
are no large examples so far, only the REST like book app on the
smalltalkhub wiki.

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
> How do you load your dependencies, like NeoJSON or STON ?

I consider them as optional dependencies therefore they are not loaded. If
someone wants to use them they will need to load them from the config
browser. From the code I don't refer to them directly but with the
"Smalltalk at: #NeoJSON" expression, so the projects loads and works without
them, if they are not used. Probably I will add some metacello stuff later
to make it easier to load them.

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
> If you need anything from Zn that is not yet provided, please ask. I would
> be happy to help. It is impressive that you did all this without any
> direct questions !
>
> Cool name too !
>
> Sven
>
> PS: Most people don't seem to know, but you can load a #stable version in
> one expression:
>
> Gofer it
> smalltalkhubUser: 'zeroflag' project: 'Teapot';
> configuration;
> loadStable.
>
> It is just more elegant I think. There are some variants of this API as
> well, check the Gofer class.

Thanks, that's better.

--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ANN-Teapot-0-8-micro-web-framework-tp4774449p4774467.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

philippeback

Re: [ANN] Teapot 0.8 micro web framework

In reply to this post by fstephany

On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 1:37 PM, François Stephany <[hidden email]> wrote:

Phil,
I'm going there as well ;)

Hey, sweet!

The idea is to see what we can do with GTInspector / Roassal (and maybe https://github.com/fstephany/OSMMaps).

I am more on a webapp / Seaside kind of thing. But yeah, GTInspector/Playground are definitely nice to have. Need to learn on the Playground. Inspector is ok.

Attila,
I played a little bit with Teapot last week during ESUG and was wondering what is your flow when you are designing/experimenting an API with Teapot? Do you reset the instance everytime you modify/add a route?

Thanks a lot for this, it feels like the right amount of abstraction between bare Zinc and fully loaded Seaside !

On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:06 AM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Great tool to have.

Definitely easier than doing everything in Zn or Seaside REST for getting something done quick.

For hackathons, this is quite useful for sure!

We should have a lineup of tools like that that allow us to shine during such events in order to promote Pharo.

http://checkthis.com/hackathonbxl is one I go to in october.

The monitor on the right is mine during a previous hackathon and what is on it is... Pharo ! (The guy on the picture was my team mate. He is a Scala guy).

What would you think makes sense in such a stack beyond Teapot?

MongoTalk, ZnEasy, Roassal, Mapless, ...

Phil

On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:40 PM, Attila Magyar <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
> Are there any tests ? Examples ?

There is a test package, but it is not part of the metacello config. You can
see it, if you add the repositiory and load the project from there. There
are no large examples so far, only the REST like book app on the
smalltalkhub wiki.

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
> How do you load your dependencies, like NeoJSON or STON ?

I consider them as optional dependencies therefore they are not loaded. If
someone wants to use them they will need to load them from the config
browser. From the code I don't refer to them directly but with the
"Smalltalk at: #NeoJSON" expression, so the projects loads and works without
them, if they are not used. Probably I will add some metacello stuff later
to make it easier to load them.

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
> If you need anything from Zn that is not yet provided, please ask. I would
> be happy to help. It is impressive that you did all this without any
> direct questions !
>
> Cool name too !
>
> Sven
>
> PS: Most people don't seem to know, but you can load a #stable version in
> one expression:
>
> Gofer it
> smalltalkhubUser: 'zeroflag' project: 'Teapot';
> configuration;
> loadStable.
>
> It is just more elegant I think. There are some variants of this API as
> well, check the Gofer class.

Thanks, that's better.

--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ANN-Teapot-0-8-micro-web-framework-tp4774449p4774467.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Attila Magyar

Re: [ANN] Teapot 0.8 micro web framework

In reply to this post by Santiago Bragagnolo

Santiago Bragagnolo wrote

> I played a little bit with Teapot last week during ESUG and was wondering
> what is your flow when you are designing/experimenting an API with Teapot?
> Do you reset the instance everytime you modify/add a route?

I'm not sure i understand it correctly. The routes are stored in a router in an OrderedCollection. If you say

teapot
GET: '/foo/bar' -> someAction

A new Route will be created with the given url pattern, action, http method and default response transformer. The first 3 things cannot be modifed later, but the response transformer can. So if you say:

teapot
GET: '/foo/bar' -> someAction; output: #ston

Then the ston transformer will be added to the current route, after the route was added to the router. Teapot stores a reference to the current route to be able to do this. In the future there may be other messages (eg. filtering based on the content-type or other request properties). The reason for doing this is to avoid the combinatorial explosion of method numbers (there is no need to implement GET:output:, POST:output:, etc..).

Is it an answer for your question or did you mean something else?

S Krish

Re: [ANN] Teapot 0.8 micro web framework

The framework is nice.. and addictive to play with as stated before, well documented, clean and easy.. !

Potentially a good tool to weave into any app. My quick play with the framework, surprised me with its productive usage.. so here it goes..

Teapot: Pharo web REST framework, it ain’t micro

On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 11:06 PM, Attila Magyar <[hidden email]> wrote:

Santiago Bragagnolo wrote

>> I played a little bit with Teapot last week during ESUG and was wondering
>> what is your flow when you are designing/experimenting an API with
>> Teapot?
>> Do you reset the instance everytime you modify/add a route?

I'm not sure i understand it correctly. The routes are stored in a router in
an OrderedCollection. If you say

teapot
GET: '/foo/bar' -> someAction

A new Route will be created with the given url pattern, action, http method
and default response transformer. The first 3 things cannot be modifed
later, but the response transformer can. So if you say:

teapot
GET: '/foo/bar' -> someAction; output: #ston

Then the ston transformer will be added to the current route, after the
route was added to the router. Teapot stores a reference to the current
route to be able to do this. In the future there may be other messages (eg.
filtering based on the content-type or other request properties). The reason
for doing this is to avoid the combinatorial explosion of method numbers
(there is no need to implement GET:output:, POST:output:, etc..).

Is it an answer for your question or did you mean something else?

--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ANN-Teapot-0-8-micro-web-framework-tp4774449p4774693.html

Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Ben Coman

Re: [ANN] Teapot 0.8 micro web framework

I haven't the time play with it right now, but its a good read. Just some minor grammar feedback...

> you are quicker off the block
you are quickly off the block

> This also provides a flexibility in scaling
This also provides flexibility in scaling

cheers -ben

S Krish wrote:

The framework is nice.. and addictive to play with as stated before, well documented, clean and easy.. !

Potentially a good tool to weave into any app. My quick play with the framework, surprised me with its productive usage.. so here it goes..

Teapot: Pharo web REST framework, it ain’t micro

On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 11:06 PM, Attila Magyar <[hidden email]> wrote:

Santiago Bragagnolo wrote

>> I played a little bit with Teapot last week during ESUG and was wondering
>> what is your flow when you are designing/experimenting an API with
>> Teapot?
>> Do you reset the instance everytime you modify/add a route?

I'm not sure i understand it correctly. The routes are stored in a router in
an OrderedCollection. If you say

teapot
GET: '/foo/bar' -> someAction

A new Route will be created with the given url pattern, action, http method
and default response transformer. The first 3 things cannot be modifed
later, but the response transformer can. So if you say:

teapot
GET: '/foo/bar' -> someAction; output: #ston

Then the ston transformer will be added to the current route, after the
route was added to the router. Teapot stores a reference to the current
route to be able to do this. In the future there may be other messages (eg.
filtering based on the content-type or other request properties). The reason
for doing this is to avoid the combinatorial explosion of method numbers
(there is no need to implement GET:output:, POST:output:, etc..).

Is it an answer for your question or did you mean something else?

--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ANN-Teapot-0-8-micro-web-framework-tp4774449p4774693.html

Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

S Krish

Re: [ANN] Teapot 0.8 micro web framework

Thanks for the observation.

In the age of text chats and SMS, not that I do either of them, we forget the art of writing well.

On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:

I haven't the time play with it right now, but its a good read. Just some minor grammar feedback...

> you are quicker off the block
you are quickly off the block

> This also provides a flexibility in scaling
This also provides flexibility in scaling

cheers -ben

S Krish wrote:

The framework is nice.. and addictive to play with as stated before, well documented, clean and easy.. !

Potentially a good tool to weave into any app. My quick play with the framework, surprised me with its productive usage.. so here it goes..

Teapot: Pharo web REST framework, it ain’t micro

On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 11:06 PM, Attila Magyar <[hidden email]> wrote:

Santiago Bragagnolo wrote

>> I played a little bit with Teapot last week during ESUG and was wondering
>> what is your flow when you are designing/experimenting an API with
>> Teapot?
>> Do you reset the instance everytime you modify/add a route?

I'm not sure i understand it correctly. The routes are stored in a router in
an OrderedCollection. If you say

teapot
GET: '/foo/bar' -> someAction

A new Route will be created with the given url pattern, action, http method
and default response transformer. The first 3 things cannot be modifed
later, but the response transformer can. So if you say:

teapot
GET: '/foo/bar' -> someAction; output: #ston

Then the ston transformer will be added to the current route, after the
route was added to the router. Teapot stores a reference to the current
route to be able to do this. In the future there may be other messages (eg.
filtering based on the content-type or other request properties). The reason
for doing this is to avoid the combinatorial explosion of method numbers
(there is no need to implement GET:output:, POST:output:, etc..).

Is it an answer for your question or did you mean something else?

--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ANN-Teapot-0-8-micro-web-framework-tp4774449p4774693.html

Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.