Alan Kay's static typing sytem quote...

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Alan Kay's static typing sytem quote...

Blake-5
Hey, all,

        I'm trying to find Alan Kay's static typing system quote ("more trouble  
than they're worth"?) somewhere on the 'net so I can link to it for an  
article.

        Does anyone remember what it was, exactly?

        ===Blake===

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Re: Alan Kay's static typing sytem quote...

Glenn Ehrlich
Blake <blake <at> kingdomrpg.com> writes:

>
> Hey, all,
>
> I'm trying to find Alan Kay's static typing system quote ("more trouble  
> than they're worth"?) somewhere on the 'net so I can link to it for an  
> article.
>
> Does anyone remember what it was, exactly?
>
> ===Blake===
>
>


Are you thinking of his ACM Queue interview:

http://www.acmqueue.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=273

Where he says this:

"Some people are completely religious about type systems and as a mathematician
I love the idea of type systems, but nobody has ever come up with one that has
enough scope. If you combine Simula and Lisp—Lisp didn’t have data structures,
it had instances of objects—you would have a dynamic type system that would give
you the range of expression you need."

Glenn Ehrlich


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Re: Alan Kay's static typing sytem quote...

Blake-5
Glenn,

        Thanks, but no, it was much more concise. Something like, "I have nothing  
against them but I've never encountered one that wasn't more trouble than  
it was worth"?

        ===Blake===

On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 14:39:44 -0800, Glenn Ehrlich  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Blake <blake <at> kingdomrpg.com> writes:
>
>>
>> Hey, all,
>>
>> I'm trying to find Alan Kay's static typing system quote ("more trouble
>> than they're worth"?) somewhere on the 'net so I can link to it for an
>> article.
>>
>> Does anyone remember what it was, exactly?
>>
>> ===Blake===
>>
>>
>
>
> Are you thinking of his ACM Queue interview:
>
> http://www.acmqueue.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=273
>
> Where he says this:
>
> "Some people are completely religious about type systems and as a  
> mathematician
> I love the idea of type systems, but nobody has ever come up with one  
> that has
> enough scope. If you combine Simula and Lisp—Lisp didn’t have data  
> structures,
> it had instances of objects—you would have a dynamic type system that  
> would give
> you the range of expression you need."
>
> Glenn Ehrlich
>
>



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Re: Alan Kay's static typing sytem quote...

Glenn Ehrlich
Blake <blake <at> kingdomrpg.com> writes:

>
> Glenn,
>
> Thanks, but no, it was much more concise. Something like, "I have nothing  
> against them but I've never encountered one that wasn't more trouble than  
> it was worth"?
>
> ===Blake===
>

How about this gem:

"I'm not against types, but I don't know of any type systems that aren't a
complete pain, so I still like dynamic typing."

from:

http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~ram/pub/pub_jf47ht24Ht/doc_kay_oop_en


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Re: Alan Kay's static typing sytem quote...

Blake-5
Thank you, Glen!

That's the one. I think of that every time I sit down to do generics....

http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~ram/pub/pub_jf47ht24Ht/doc_kay_oop_en

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Re: Alan Kay's static typing sytem quote...

Rick Zaccone

On Nov 6, 2007, at 2007-11-06, 7:04 PM, Blake wrote:

> Thank you, Glen!
>
> That's the one. I think of that every time I sit down to do  
> generics....
>
> http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~ram/pub/pub_jf47ht24Ht/doc_kay_oop_en

This link doesn't work for me.  What does it point to?

Rick


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Re: Alan Kay's static typing sytem quote...

Blake-5
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 16:08:09 -0800, Rick Zaccone <[hidden email]>  
wrote:

>
> On Nov 6, 2007, at 2007-11-06, 7:04 PM, Blake wrote:
>
>> Thank you, Glen!
>>
>> That's the one. I think of that every time I sit down to do generics....
>>
>> http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~ram/pub/pub_jf47ht24Ht/doc_kay_oop_en
>
> This link doesn't work for me.  What does it point to?
>
> Rick
>
>

Yeah, it's a little weird. It works if you go to it through Google.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=LoD&q=Meaning+of+Object-ORiented+Programming+ACcording+to+Dr.+ALan+Kay&btnG=Search

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Re: Alan Kay's static typing sytem quote...

Bert Freudenberg

On Nov 7, 2007, at 1:14 , Blake wrote:

> On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 16:08:09 -0800, Rick Zaccone  
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Nov 6, 2007, at 2007-11-06, 7:04 PM, Blake wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you, Glen!
>>>
>>> That's the one. I think of that every time I sit down to do  
>>> generics....
>>>
>>> http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~ram/pub/pub_jf47ht24Ht/doc_kay_oop_en
>>
>> This link doesn't work for me.  What does it point to?
>>
>> Rick
>>
>>
>
> Yeah, it's a little weird. It works if you go to it through Google.
>
> <a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%">http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla% 
> 3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=LoD&q=Meaning+of+Object-ORiented+Programming
> +ACcording+to+Dr.+ALan+Kay&btnG=Search

The original link worked fine for me. The actual page mentions its  
permanent url is

http://www.purl.org/stefan_ram/pub/doc_kay_oop_en

- Bert -



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Re: Alan Kay's static typing sytem quote...

Blake-5
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 16:39:48 -0800, Bert Freudenberg  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Nov 7, 2007, at 1:14 , Blake wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 16:08:09 -0800, Rick Zaccone <[hidden email]>  
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 6, 2007, at 2007-11-06, 7:04 PM, Blake wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thank you, Glen!
>>>>
>>>> That's the one. I think of that every time I sit down to do  
>>>> generics....
>>>>
>>>> http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~ram/pub/pub_jf47ht24Ht/doc_kay_oop_en
>>>
>>> This link doesn't work for me.  What does it point to?
>>>
>>> Rick
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Yeah, it's a little weird. It works if you go to it through Google.
>>
>> <a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%">http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla% 
>> 3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=LoD&q=Meaning+of+Object-ORiented+Programming
>> +ACcording+to+Dr.+ALan+Kay&btnG=Search
>
> The original link worked fine for me. The actual page mentions its  
> permanent url is
>
> http://www.purl.org/stefan_ram/pub/doc_kay_oop_en
>
> - Bert -

When I click that "permanent URL", I get an access denied.



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Re: Alan Kay's static typing sytem quote...

Reinhard Handl
In reply to this post by Blake-5
i found balzers memorandum on dataless programming on the net:

http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_memoranda/2007/RM5290.pdf

cheers, reinhard



Blake schrieb:
> Thank you, Glen!
>
> That's the one. I think of that every time I sit down to do generics....
>
> http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~ram/pub/pub_jf47ht24Ht/doc_kay_oop_en
>
>


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Re: Alan Kay's static typing sytem quote...

Jason Johnson-5
In reply to this post by Blake-5
 If your exposure is C/C++/Java/C# style weak typing then yes, it's quite awful.

There are much *much* better systems out there, but personally I find
that such a good type system means it's a good while before I have
compiled code I can experiment with.  I think Strongtalk's idea of
adding inferred typing on optionally after the fact is a good one.

On Nov 7, 2007 1:04 AM, Blake <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Thank you, Glen!
>
> That's the one. I think of that every time I sit down to do generics....
>
>
> http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~ram/pub/pub_jf47ht24Ht/doc_kay_oop_en
>
>