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All-in-one VM for 4.4?

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Bert Freudenberg

Re: Windows interpreter VM (was: All-in-one VM for 4.4?)

On 2013-03-07, at 17:18, "David T. Lewis" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 07, 2013 at 02:58:24PM +0100, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>>
>> Nobody built that Mac interpreter VM in ages. Current XCode doesn't even ship a PPC tool chain anymore, so you cannot easily build it even if you wanted. Same for the 5.4.x series really (which also is more than 2 years old).
>>
>> In short, there is no up-to-date interpreter VM for the Mac, indeed. Nor is there an official one for Windows, unless I'm mistaken. The only current ones are on Linux.
>>
>
> Regarding the Windows VM, Ian has built an up to date interpreter VM for
> Windows and made it available through Andreas' squeakvm.org page here:
>
> http://squeakvm.org/win32/
>
> This is fully up to date to the same level as the unix VM. It is marked
> as a beta release that needs testing, so if any Windows users can please
> give it a try, that would be very helpful.
>
> The previous Windows builds are still available at http://squeakvm.org/win32/release,
> but those older builds cannot be used with images saved from Cog. So barring
> any problems that might arise in testing, the latest build provided by Ian
> should now be the recommended version for Windows.
>
> Until or unless we have an alternative plan for carrying on Andreas' work
> in the trunk code base, I think we can safely treat this as an official
> release.
>
> Dave

Ah, I had forgotten about that! Kudos to Ian! And since his Unix VM works on the Mac, too, we *do* have a current interpreter after all. It wasn't as polished as John's IIRC but definitely usable.

- Bert -

Bert Freudenberg

Re: All-in-one VM for 4.4?

In reply to this post by Tobias Pape

On 2013-03-07, at 17:07, Tobias Pape <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Am 07.03.2013 um 14:58 schrieb Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> Nobody built that Mac interpreter VM in ages. Current XCode doesn't even ship a PPC tool chain anymore, so you cannot easily build it even if you wanted. Same for the 5.4.x series really (which also is more than 2 years old).
>>
>
> I somehow managed to get a 5.4.x vm built, I wanted to play around with the
> grapical backend.
>
> How is the Mac CogVM built, then? Does it use vmmaker platform/iOS or something?
> Eliot?

Cog has its own subversion branch:

http://squeakvm.org/svn/squeak/branches/Cog/

- Bert -

>
>> In short, there is no up-to-date interpreter VM for the Mac, indeed. Nor is there an official one for Windows, unless I'm mistaken. The only current ones are on Linux.
>
> :(
>
> Best
> -Tobias

Eliot Miranda-2

Re: All-in-one VM for 4.4?

In reply to this post by Tobias Pape

On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 8:07 AM, Tobias Pape <[hidden email]> wrote:

Am 07.03.2013 um 14:58 schrieb Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]>:

> On 2013-03-06, at 18:15, Tobias Pape <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Am 06.03.2013 um 18:06 schrieb David Corking <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> I read Paul's lists of external plugins. Thanks: I, for one,
>>> appreciate the attention to detail.
>>>
>>> (1) I recall that there was a plan to include the four Scratch
>>> plugins, such as Camera, in Squeak 4.4 . I don't know if we have code
>>> in the image that requires them, but they may encourage interesting
>>> new packages, or smooth the way for the port of Etoys to trunk.
>>>
>>> Please consider adding them in 4.4 or 4.5 all-in-ones.
>>>
>>> (2) Cog VMs list of externals seem shorter. Unless Eliot has built the
>>> others as internals, Cog VMs may miss important functionality. For
>>> example, Linux users could get crashes without the pulse audio plugin.
>>> (There are workarounds in one version of Bert's launcher script, but I
>>> don't know if they are well tested, or if that version of the script
>>> can be included in the All-in-One.) I think all platforms will miss
>>> Kedama.
>>>
>>> Please mention in the release notes that (for now) users who download
>>> the Cog all-in-one will trade functionality for speed.
>>>
>>> (3) Tobias Pape wrote:
>>>

>>> I think Bert has advised you correctly. My recollection is that the
>>> "Cocoa Interpreter VM" line of development was abandoned in favour of
>>> the Cog VM (I remember hearing that Xcode had some idiosyncrasies that
>>> made it difficult to achieve quite the same level of quality as the
>>> 'Carbon VM' but that isn't important now.) The 'Carbon VM' interpreter
>>> Squeak 4.2.5beta1U.app as linked works fine in OS X.
>>>
>>
>> Now I am quite puzzled. The sqMacMain.c of the Carbon VM states quite clearly:
>>
>> #error Hi, you are building an obsolete version of the macintosh VM.
>> #error Instead use the xCode projects found in the iOS folder
>> #error Remove these error defines if you really need to build this obsolete 4.x VM
>>
>> (as of SVN revision 2287)
>
> Nobody built that Mac interpreter VM in ages. Current XCode doesn't even ship a PPC tool chain anymore, so you cannot easily build it even if you wanted. Same for the 5.4.x series really (which also is more than 2 years old).
>

I somehow managed to get a 5.4.x vm built, I wanted to play around with the
grapical backend.

How is the Mac CogVM built, then? Does it use vmmaker platform/iOS or something?
Eliot?

It is the Carbon VM, http://www.squeakvm.org/svn/squeak/branches/Cog/platforms/Mac%20OS. Built using XCode on Snow Leopard, 10.6, using the 10.5 SDK. Currently the clang build limps along at -O1 and I've not got time to fix this.

> In short, there is no up-to-date interpreter VM for the Mac, indeed. Nor is there an official one for Windows, unless I'm mistaken. The only current ones are on Linux.

:(

Best
-Tobias

--
best,

Eliot

timrowledge

Re: All-in-one VM for 4.4?

In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg

>
> <GearColored-bf.png>

Hmm, that top section makes it look alarmingly like a 'Mars Attacks' poster.
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm506632192/tt0116996

tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
"How many Outsiders does it take to change a lightbulb?" "Personal questions cost one trillion stars."

timrowledge

Re: All-in-one VM for 4.4?

In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg

On 07-03-2013, at 5:58 AM, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> In short, there is no up-to-date interpreter VM for the Mac, indeed. Nor is there an official one for Windows, unless I'm mistaken. The only current ones are on Linux.

And RISC OS. There's even a few hundred people using it!

tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
Strange OpCodes: FLR: Flash Lights Randomly

timrowledge

Re: All-in-one VM for 4.4?

In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg

On 07-03-2013, at 6:09 AM, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Some plugins should be built externally because they are dynamically linked with system libraries that may or may not exist on any given system. If they were built internally, then the VM itself would have these dependencies, making its use less universal.

Good point.

And…

On 06-03-2013, at 8:05 PM, "David T. Lewis" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> IIRC, BitBltSimulation and BalloonEnginePlugin need to be built internal, but
> aside from that all plugins can be either internal or external at the discretion
> of the VM builder.

Do they? I mean as in do they on some particular platforms? Because RISC OS has them external with no problems wrt the plugin code.

tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking.

Bert Freudenberg

Re: All-in-one VM for 4.4?

In reply to this post by timrowledge

On 2013-03-07, at 19:30, tim Rowledge <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hmm, that top section makes it look alarmingly like a 'Mars Attacks' poster.
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm506632192/tt0116996

Hehe. Should I count this as one more vote for green?

Or ... oh, you mean the highlight. It's the same as for the golden ones ... but maybe with these colors it stands out more. Back to the future, maybe? :) I can make it a bit less shiny in the final version if you like.

- Bert -

timrowledge

Re: All-in-one VM for 4.4?

On 07-03-2013, at 10:42 AM, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 2013-03-07, at 19:30, tim Rowledge <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hmm, that top section makes it look alarmingly like a 'Mars Attacks' poster.
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm506632192/tt0116996

Hehe. Should I count this as one more vote for green?

<PastedGraphic-2.tiff> <GearColored-bf.png>

Or ... oh, you mean the highlight. It's the same as for the golden ones ... but maybe with these colors it stands out more. Back to the future, maybe? :) I can make it a bit less shiny in the final version if you like.

I'm thinking steampunk. I'm thinking ol'Squeaky embossed on a brass cog, rotated slightly (do any OSs allow animated gifs as icons yet? Doug Adams suggested that a couple of decades ago in one of his fabulous documentaries) and driving a much larger cog that is only partially shown.

Appalling mouse-sketch provided as example serving. Filmed on a closed course with a professional driver laughing in the background. Know your limits and play within them.

tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
Useful random insult:- One chicken short of a henhouse.

Bert Freudenberg

Re: All-in-one VM for 4.4?

On 07.03.2013, at 20:02, tim Rowledge <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 07-03-2013, at 10:42 AM, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 2013-03-07, at 19:30, tim Rowledge <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hmm, that top section makes it look alarmingly like a 'Mars Attacks' poster.
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm506632192/tt0116996

Hehe. Should I count this as one more vote for green?

<PastedGraphic-2.tiff> <GearColored-bf.png>

Or ... oh, you mean the highlight. It's the same as for the golden ones ... but maybe with these colors it stands out more. Back to the future, maybe? :) I can make it a bit less shiny in the final version if you like.

I'm thinking steampunk. I'm thinking ol'Squeaky embossed on a brass cog, rotated slightly (do any OSs allow animated gifs as icons yet? Doug Adams suggested that a couple of decades ago in one of his fabulous documentaries) and driving a much larger cog that is only partially shown.

<Brass-Squeaky-cog.jpg>
Appalling mouse-sketch provided as example serving. Filmed on a closed course with a professional driver laughing in the background. Know your limits and play within them.

Steampunk sounds great, if we can pull it off. I don't like the partially visible gear though, for an icon at least.

- Bert -

Stéphane Rollandin

Re: Windows interpreter VM

In reply to this post by David T. Lewis

> Regarding the Windows VM, Ian has built an up to date interpreter VM for
> Windows and made it available through Andreas' squeakvm.org page here:
>
> http://squeakvm.org/win32/
>
> This is fully up to date to the same level as the unix VM. It is marked
> as a beta release that needs testing, so if any Windows users can please
> give it a try, that would be very helpful.

I am using this VM about every day and I never had any problem with it.

Stef

Tobias Pape

Re: All-in-one VM for 4.4?

In reply to this post by Eliot Miranda-2

Am 07.03.2013 um 18:36 schrieb Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>:

> On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 8:07 AM, Tobias Pape <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Am 07.03.2013 um 14:58 schrieb Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]>:
>
> > On 2013-03-06, at 18:15, Tobias Pape <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Am 06.03.2013 um 18:06 schrieb David Corking <[hidden email]>:
> >>
> >>> I read Paul's lists of external plugins. Thanks: I, for one,
> >>> appreciate the attention to detail.
> >>>
> >>> (1) I recall that there was a plan to include the four Scratch
> >>> plugins, such as Camera, in Squeak 4.4 . I don't know if we have code
> >>> in the image that requires them, but they may encourage interesting
> >>> new packages, or smooth the way for the port of Etoys to trunk.
> >>>
> >>> Please consider adding them in 4.4 or 4.5 all-in-ones.
> >>>
> >>> (2) Cog VMs list of externals seem shorter. Unless Eliot has built the
> >>> others as internals, Cog VMs may miss important functionality. For
> >>> example, Linux users could get crashes without the pulse audio plugin.
> >>> (There are workarounds in one version of Bert's launcher script, but I
> >>> don't know if they are well tested, or if that version of the script
> >>> can be included in the All-in-One.) I think all platforms will miss
> >>> Kedama.
> >>>
> >>> Please mention in the release notes that (for now) users who download
> >>> the Cog all-in-one will trade functionality for speed.
> >>>
> >>> (3) Tobias Pape wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I think Bert has advised you correctly. My recollection is that the
> >>> "Cocoa Interpreter VM" line of development was abandoned in favour of
> >>> the Cog VM (I remember hearing that Xcode had some idiosyncrasies that
> >>> made it difficult to achieve quite the same level of quality as the
> >>> 'Carbon VM' but that isn't important now.) The 'Carbon VM' interpreter
> >>> Squeak 4.2.5beta1U.app as linked works fine in OS X.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Now I am quite puzzled. The sqMacMain.c of the Carbon VM states quite clearly:
> >>
> >> #error Hi, you are building an obsolete version of the macintosh VM.
> >> #error Instead use the xCode projects found in the iOS folder
> >> #error Remove these error defines if you really need to build this obsolete 4.x VM
> >>
> >> (as of SVN revision 2287)
> >
> > Nobody built that Mac interpreter VM in ages. Current XCode doesn't even ship a PPC tool chain anymore, so you cannot easily build it even if you wanted. Same for the 5.4.x series really (which also is more than 2 years old).
> >
>
> I somehow managed to get a 5.4.x vm built, I wanted to play around with the
> grapical backend.
>
> How is the Mac CogVM built, then? Does it use vmmaker platform/iOS or something?
> Eliot?
>
> It is the Carbon VM, http://www.squeakvm.org/svn/squeak/branches/Cog/platforms/Mac%20OS. Built using XCode on Snow Leopard, 10.6, using the 10.5 SDK. Currently the clang build limps along at -O1 and I've not got time to fix this.
>

Thanks for the pointer. Interesting read.
Do “we” (as squeak community) have plans to change that (ie, the carbon-based-ness)?

Best
-Tobias

123