Amber marketing
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I think that Smalltalk is used by
persons who check first what they are using. Who think about
beeing productive, efficient, big teams and reliable.
There are so may person's around there who just use the stuff they get shown or told by others without checking the other possibilities. They just follow the crowd and , yes, follow bullshit sometimes. I just had some conversations with other Smalltalkers and vendors. They all have the same question. "How can we promote Smalltalk better?! And where shall we promote?" Well I think first we need to find out what Smalltalk is usefull for. I mean taking a commercial Smalltalk and a unexperienced Developer. How long will he need to be able to write a real money bringing application? And then compare it to JS. One dialect has it's own dev methologies and complex IDE's and massive coderepository solutions and relys on that. Nothing you will learn in 4 weeks. And the other one just works with a text editor and google as an information source. One provides a lot of opensource libraries with a lot of documentation and big communities. The other provides just the rocksolid basement for applications which survives 15 years of developemnt and production. But you need to do a lot on your own. So even if I knew both worlds, why should I choose Amber oppose to pure JS? Well, just because if I add a JS developer to my team I don't really know what I get, but if I add a Smalltalkerto my team,..... well then I know that he thinks in frameworks and long lasting solutions and not fast money. Or am I too old-fashioned now? Where's the right niche for Smalltalk? I think Amber is playing with the fire and is on the edge, but maybe I'm wrong. And yes Chip, I think nowadays people eat what's tasts good but don't think about their health. And that's... stupid... So how can we provide smalltalk/Amber with good taste? Colour and flavor and some lies, that's how the others do it. Sebastian Am 05.03.2013 10:48, schrieb Chip Nowacek: Sebastian, I don't follow. Could you explain further? Are you saying that Smalltalk appeals to a different kind of person, a more rare person, a more serious person? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. |
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In reply to this post by Nicolas Petton
I think I know the apple, but it's not quite on the lowest branch:
The reasons these suggests something slightly more than what Amber offers now is that there really has to be a compelling reason for developers to learn a new language and the perceived/implied extra complexity. All these I believe are compelling, and reachable leveraging the javascript library ecosphere. We may not want to reach all these ... but there's the apple. - Darius You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. |
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In reply to this post by SebastianHC
To my mind, you, Sebastian, answered your own question. The fact is there's a lot of pain associated with creating systems that are simply crescendos of chaos born of the in-fashion platform. Yes, many will still continue to create such systems for whatever reason. So what. Nothing to be done about it. The plan is to be ready for those who will continue to fall off the abominations and, because of what they've seen with their own eyes, start to cast about for something better. People only consider surgery when the alternative is worse. Sure, learning Smalltalk is a challenge. It's not as big a challenge as having systems that don't work or can't be changed. There's no point in talking to people that think it doesn't matter what you build something with or how you build it. We just smile, make smalltalk, and know they will be back later. We don't know we are stupid until life makes it obvious.
:)
-- On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 2:27:45 PM UTC-5, HCSebastian wrote:
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In reply to this post by Darius Clarke
Brilliant, really. The field is white. Of the the contingents you identify, which do you believe Amber is best suited to serve right now? Which of those groups if, with a little stretch of the current tech, Amber would serve really well? I'm asking which is on the lowest branch and which, if there was a choice, would be the next lowest?
On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 2:35:37 PM UTC-5, Darius wrote:
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In reply to this post by Chip Nowacek-2
100% d'accord!
When ever I start something new I check other solutions and I really wait for the day where somebody might proof me wrong using Smalltalk. (apart from things Smalltalk simply doesn't support...) Sebastian Am 05.03.2013 11:54, schrieb Chip Nowacek: To my mind, you, Sebastian, answered your own question. The fact is there's a lot of pain associated with creating systems that are simply crescendos of chaos born of the in-fashion platform. Yes, many will still continue to create such systems for whatever reason. So what. Nothing to be done about it. The plan is to be ready for those who will continue to fall off the abominations and, because of what they've seen with their own eyes, start to cast about for something better. People only consider surgery when the alternative is worse. Sure, learning Smalltalk is a challenge. It's not as big a challenge as having systems that don't work or can't be changed. There's no point in talking to people that think it doesn't matter what you build something with or how you build it. We just smile, make smalltalk, and know they will be back later. We don't know we are stupid until life makes it obvious. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. |
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In reply to this post by Darius Clarke
Excellent list.
I just want to add two things I come across while talkinmg to others. 1. Seasider who who struggle with Seaside's javascript integration but are scared to check Amber out. 2. Smalltalkers who do not yet see their favorite Smalltalk IDE/source repository supported (Amber hosting/ syntactical issues) Sebastian Am 05.03.2013 11:35, schrieb Darius Clarke:
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In reply to this post by Chip Nowacek-2
To answer your questions:
-- Which do you believe Amber is best suited to serve right now?
The Coffeescript or Cappuccino group since they're learning another language anyway. Which of those groups if, with a little stretch of the current tech, Amber would serve really well? App optimization would be the most compelling one. Delays and poor performance trumps good design for preventing achieving a site's purpose. Other solutions create bandwidth hogging on mobile for the sake of a pretty design or churn through a mobile's battery with unoptimized javascript processing. And those imply big $ € to companies.
- Darius You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. |
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And those imply big $ € to companies... due to lost sales and higher cost for supporting infrastructure. On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Darius Clarke <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by Darius Clarke
Darius Clarke wrote: > I think I know the apple, but it's not quite on the lowest branch: > > * Those who want to develop mobile-first, responsive designs, since > you can develop */on/* a typical or target device, immediately. > (preferably with a bluetooth keyboard attached). Calatrava (https://github.com/calatrava/calatrava) is interesting tool / idea, based on Martin Fowler's views of multiplatform mobile development (http://martinfowler.com/articles/multiMobile/). It has backend side, which does app logic, common for all platform, JS (that is, coffeescript :-( ) based, and different UI (web or native, as you wish) for each platform; it advises to start UI as web and doing native later. It would be nice if Amber could plug in from both sides (backend as well as UI). It would be even better if the calatrava itself, which does the scaffolding and build process, could be written in Amber itself; now it is dependent on Mac and ruby :-/ That way, we could have a system that allows creating hybrid mobile apps with optional native UI part; but written entirely in amber, so no ruby, no need to be at Mac (at least for some parts of development) and which could work in the device directly. > - Darius Herby -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. |
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In reply to this post by Chip Nowacek-2
Hi!
On 03/05/2013 04:19 PM, Chip Nowacek wrote: > I'd love to get an Ingalls quote. Right on the homepage. Has he said > something about the project? Does he know about it? I have bugged Dan a few times about Amber, since I know him fairly well. But he hasn't had time to play I think. I can try again. Ideally he would join us hacking :) regards, Göran -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. |
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In reply to this post by SebastianHC
Yes, yes, yes. I think Darius and Sebastian have laid quite the foundation. They identify thousands of potential Amberian Smalltalkers.
Nico!!!! Once the next release is out, I might suggest a gathering of those interested in Amber's future to discuss which apple is biggest and closest and organize a team to address the work required, tech and "non"-tech, to reach out and pick it. People love to be wooed.
-- On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 3:16:50 PM UTC-5, HCSebastian wrote:
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Chip Nowacek wrote: > Yes, yes, yes. I think Darius and Sebastian have laid quite the > foundation. They identify thousands of potential Amberian Smalltalkers. > > Nico!!!! Once the next release is out, I might suggest a gathering of > those interested in Amber's future to discuss which apple is biggest and > closest and organize a team to address the work required, tech and I am very skeptical to "organize a team". Either it works from the bottom, "self-organizing" (of course, there must be a potent lure, and that may be worked on), or there won't be anything. At least not in open-source. But that's just my view. > "non"-tech, to reach out and pick it. > > People love to be wooed. Herby -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. |
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I'm nobody, Herby. Just a suggestion. And I don't see how the parts of the body can be coordinated without a brain - Nico's brain. There's just a lot to do and he can't do it all. If he tries, Amber will fail. There are a lot of people pulling for Amber's success. They just need help knowing how to contribute in ways that compliment the work of others. Both duplicated and neglected effort demotivates everyone. It's no fun.
I see a leader's job is, exactly as you say, to understand the potent lure and help everyone get there together. I'm not into power structures. I am into the whole being greater than the sum of the parts.
-- I think Amber has a real role to play in the world. And, again, I'm nobody. I have to get back to figuring out how to get a button on my screen. There's no good reason to listen to me anyway. If I don't get this app written, I'm cooked. I have to "unsuck" as a developer here pretty quickly. By the way, there needs to be more intro material. Who's doing that? :) On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 3:57:37 PM UTC-5, Herby wrote:
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In reply to this post by Nicolas Petton
Sure.
Lundi ou jeudi :-) Phil 2013/3/5 Nicolas Petton <[hidden email]>: > It could be nice, indeed. > This week is a bit tight for me though. Next one? > > Nico > > > On Mar 5, 2013, at 3:44 PM, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> Now it gets interesting as this is within my line of business :-) >> >> What about a podcast or two guys? Anytime this thursday and friday, I >> am ready to talk to you over skype, record, and format it all. >> >> Check some of my work: >> >> http://castroller.com/Podcasts/SPaMCAST/2962760 >> http://philippeback.be/feed/podcast >> http://youtube.com/philippeback >> >> We can also do a symbaloo webmix like the one of Pharo: >> http://www.symbaloo.com/mix/pharo >> >> /Phil >> >> 2013/3/5 Nicolas Petton <[hidden email]>: >>> On Mar 5, 2013, at 2:17 PM, Chip Nowacek <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> Is there a marketing plan? >>> >>> >>> Not really (yet?) >>> >>> Nico >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "amber-lang" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [hidden email]. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> > > -- > Nicolas Petton > http://www.nicolas-petton.fr > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. |
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In reply to this post by SebastianHC
Smalltalk is good for small teams that cannot afford to spend too long
shipping working code. "There is always time to do it wrong, never for doing it right. The problem I often see are teams that do it wrong 5 times and burn their available capital. Which means closing shop. Using the Smalltalk inspired way of thinking, they stand a better chance of doing right. But a lot of times, people prefer to fail (even repeatedly) with a semi plausible explanation for failure than risking succeeding. Usually, people attracted to Smalltalk are of the second category. Which means part of a very tiny pool. That's just how it is. So, use the better tools and to hell with the first category." --me Phil, putting the philosophical hat back on the hook 2013/3/5 Sebastian Heidbrink <[hidden email]>: > I think that Smalltalk is used by persons who check first what they are > using. Who think about beeing productive, efficient, big teams and reliable. > > There are so may person's around there who just use the stuff they get shown > or told by others without checking the other possibilities. They just follow > the crowd and , yes, follow bullshit sometimes. > > I just had some conversations with other Smalltalkers and vendors. > They all have the same question. "How can we promote Smalltalk better?! And > where shall we promote?" > > Well I think first we need to find out what Smalltalk is usefull for. > I mean taking a commercial Smalltalk and a unexperienced Developer. How long > will he need to be able to write a real money bringing application? > And then compare it to JS. > One dialect has it's own dev methologies and complex IDE's and massive > coderepository solutions and relys on that. Nothing you will learn in 4 > weeks. > And the other one just works with a text editor and google as an information > source. > One provides a lot of opensource libraries with a lot of documentation and > big communities. > The other provides just the rocksolid basement for applications which > survives 15 years of developemnt and production. But you need to do a lot on > your own. > > So even if I knew both worlds, why should I choose Amber oppose to pure JS? > Well, just because if I add a JS developer to my team I don't really know > what I get, but if I add a Smalltalkerto my team,..... well then I know that > he thinks in frameworks and long lasting solutions and not fast money. > Or am I too old-fashioned now? > > Where's the right niche for Smalltalk? I think Amber is playing with the > fire and is on the edge, but maybe I'm wrong. > > And yes Chip, I think nowadays people eat what's tasts good but don't think > about their health. > And that's... stupid... > So how can we provide smalltalk/Amber with good taste? Colour and flavor and > some lies, that's how the others do it. > > Sebastian > > > > Am 05.03.2013 10:48, schrieb Chip Nowacek: > > Sebastian, I don't follow. Could you explain further? Are you saying that > Smalltalk appeals to a different kind of person, a more rare person, a more > serious person? > > On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 1:40:43 PM UTC-5, HCSebastian wrote: >> >> Well, Chip, maybe that's the explanation for it! >> >> The more (bull-) shit you find the more food must be around.... >> >> That's perhaps the reason why birds won't find Smalltalk. >> >> Or in other words. The less serious people exist the less serious stuff is >> bought and used. >> >> Sebastian >> >> Am 05.03.2013 10:28, schrieb Chip Nowacek: >> >> If I get nothing from Amber, I will have met Sebastian. >> >> The questions that have been wandering around in my head: how many active >> Amber projects are there? How many in production? Are there people like me >> that suck at web development that I can grow up with? How many have looked >> at it? How many failed? What are the barriers? The barrier that counts the >> most is the one that's keeping the most people from participating and >> benefiting. >> >> I don't really know how the open source world works from an organizational >> standpoint. Does the work (marketing, core tech, user on-boarding, internal >> project management, user project support, etc) get identified, scoped and >> set on by a team? What's the people structure? >> >> I'm not that worried about scaring the birds. They are hungry. Set out the >> (consumable) food regularly and they will, eventually, flock. I don't really >> know how birds tell each other there's food but they do. >> >> On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 12:57:25 PM UTC-5, Sebastian Sastre wrote: >>> >>> well said Chip >>> >>> so if "JavaScript is the new Smalltalk." then we all know that Amber >>> life's mission is fixing what's broken in the first place to make Ingall's >>> phrase literally true. >>> >>> The problem is the world is not ready to listen to such brutal truth. >>> You'll scare all the little birds with your arrogance if you say it. >>> >>> So? >>> >>> Understand marketing: >>> http://www.amazon.com/Spent-Sex-Evolution-Consumer-Behavior/dp/0143117238 >>> >>> also having tech co-founders in the Silicon Valley (or other tech >>> mecca)using it: >>> >>> http://sebastianconcept.com/brandIt/how-to-have-an-ecosystem-around-your-technology >>> >>> lastly, a Kawasaki classic: >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSlwuafyUUo >>> >>> sebastian >>> >>> o/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 5, 2013, at 12:19 PM, Chip Nowacek wrote: >>> >>> As uncomfortable as it might be for him, Nico's the lead here, he's the >>> face. Until someone else is designated as the mouthpiece, he's the man. That >>> doesn't mean he has to do all the thinking and planning for marketing. He's >>> got plenty on his plate. Thing is: people only identify with people. For >>> now, Nico's the guy people can connect with: credentials, experience, >>> commitment, project understanding, raison d'être - all that. >>> >>> Amber is a good story: timeless thinking to manage JavaScript complexity >>> (or something like that) >>> >>> I'm not sure leading with Smalltalk helps. Not to hide it. Don't >>> misunderstand. Bottom line, no one really cares - or shouldn't. Here's what >>> matters: can you get your crap done on time and manage what you created >>> after version 0.0.0.1a? That's what Amber is all about. Bringing order to >>> JavaScript chaos. It's no coincidence that Smalltalk is probably the >>> best-planned language there is. Ingalls took his time, was careful, and >>> built a language based on human needs instead of the needs of the machine >>> because people create and machines do what they are told. But getting into a >>> my-language-vs-your-language conversation is a waste of time. Smalltalk's >>> edge will show in the results. That's where it counts. It's true (and >>> corporate types eat that stuff up). >>> >>> Amber's a big deal. It's got something good to say. And Nico has to say >>> it (as we have to help him). >>> >>> I'd love to get an Ingalls quote. Right on the homepage. Has he said >>> something about the project? Does he know about it? >>> >>> On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 8:17:47 AM UTC-5, Chip Nowacek wrote: >>>> >>>> I am running into it everywhere. Amber simply isn't mentioned in places >>>> that it should be. Check out the bottom of this Wikipedia entry: >>>> >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_browser >>>> >>>> Understanding of Amber has to be available or people...well...won't >>>> understand it. They won't or can't adopt what they don't understand. >>>> >>>> Is there a marketing plan? >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "amber-lang" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [hidden email]. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "amber-lang" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [hidden email]. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "amber-lang" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [hidden email]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "amber-lang" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [hidden email]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. 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In reply to this post by gokr
Push! Dan Ingalls on Amber, wow.
Phil 2013/3/5 Göran Krampe <[hidden email]>: > Hi! > > On 03/05/2013 04:19 PM, Chip Nowacek wrote: >> >> I'd love to get an Ingalls quote. Right on the homepage. Has he said >> something about the project? Does he know about it? > > > I have bugged Dan a few times about Amber, since I know him fairly well. But > he hasn't had time to play I think. I can try again. > > Ideally he would join us hacking :) > > regards, Göran > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "amber-lang" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [hidden email]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. |
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In reply to this post by philippeback
Phil, hats off to you. Fortunately a tiny pool in nearly 7 billion people still adds up to something worth chasing - unless we are all wrong.
On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 5:46:51 PM UTC-5, [hidden email] wrote: Smalltalk is good for small teams that cannot afford to spend too long You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. |
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Fishing the ones out of the first category that should be in the
second is a good deed indeed! Nevermind, we'll prevail :-p 2013/3/6 Chip Nowacek <[hidden email]>: > Phil, hats off to you. Fortunately a tiny pool in nearly 7 billion people > still adds up to something worth chasing - unless we are all wrong. > > > On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 5:46:51 PM UTC-5, [hidden email] wrote: >> >> Smalltalk is good for small teams that cannot afford to spend too long >> shipping working code. >> >> "There is always time to do it wrong, never for doing it right. The >> problem I often see are teams that do it wrong 5 times and burn their >> available capital. Which means closing shop. Using the Smalltalk >> inspired way of thinking, they stand a better chance of doing right. >> But a lot of times, people prefer to fail (even repeatedly) with a >> semi plausible explanation for failure than risking succeeding. >> Usually, people attracted to Smalltalk are of the second category. >> Which means part of a very tiny pool. That's just how it is. So, use >> the better tools and to hell with the first category." --me >> >> Phil, putting the philosophical hat back on the hook >> >> 2013/3/5 Sebastian Heidbrink <[hidden email]>: >> > I think that Smalltalk is used by persons who check first what they are >> > using. Who think about beeing productive, efficient, big teams and >> > reliable. >> > >> > There are so may person's around there who just use the stuff they get >> > shown >> > or told by others without checking the other possibilities. They just >> > follow >> > the crowd and , yes, follow bullshit sometimes. >> > >> > I just had some conversations with other Smalltalkers and vendors. >> > They all have the same question. "How can we promote Smalltalk better?! >> > And >> > where shall we promote?" >> > >> > Well I think first we need to find out what Smalltalk is usefull for. >> > I mean taking a commercial Smalltalk and a unexperienced Developer. How >> > long >> > will he need to be able to write a real money bringing application? >> > And then compare it to JS. >> > One dialect has it's own dev methologies and complex IDE's and massive >> > coderepository solutions and relys on that. Nothing you will learn in 4 >> > weeks. >> > And the other one just works with a text editor and google as an >> > information >> > source. >> > One provides a lot of opensource libraries with a lot of documentation >> > and >> > big communities. >> > The other provides just the rocksolid basement for applications which >> > survives 15 years of developemnt and production. But you need to do a >> > lot on >> > your own. >> > >> > So even if I knew both worlds, why should I choose Amber oppose to pure >> > JS? >> > Well, just because if I add a JS developer to my team I don't really >> > know >> > what I get, but if I add a Smalltalkerto my team,..... well then I know >> > that >> > he thinks in frameworks and long lasting solutions and not fast money. >> > Or am I too old-fashioned now? >> > >> > Where's the right niche for Smalltalk? I think Amber is playing with the >> > fire and is on the edge, but maybe I'm wrong. >> > >> > And yes Chip, I think nowadays people eat what's tasts good but don't >> > think >> > about their health. >> > And that's... stupid... >> > So how can we provide smalltalk/Amber with good taste? Colour and flavor >> > and >> > some lies, that's how the others do it. >> > >> > Sebastian >> > >> > >> > >> > Am 05.03.2013 10:48, schrieb Chip Nowacek: >> > >> > Sebastian, I don't follow. Could you explain further? Are you saying >> > that >> > Smalltalk appeals to a different kind of person, a more rare person, a >> > more >> > serious person? >> > >> > On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 1:40:43 PM UTC-5, HCSebastian wrote: >> >> >> >> Well, Chip, maybe that's the explanation for it! >> >> >> >> The more (bull-) shit you find the more food must be around.... >> >> >> >> That's perhaps the reason why birds won't find Smalltalk. >> >> >> >> Or in other words. The less serious people exist the less serious stuff >> >> is >> >> bought and used. >> >> >> >> Sebastian >> >> >> >> Am 05.03.2013 10:28, schrieb Chip Nowacek: >> >> >> >> If I get nothing from Amber, I will have met Sebastian. >> >> >> >> The questions that have been wandering around in my head: how many >> >> active >> >> Amber projects are there? How many in production? Are there people like >> >> me >> >> that suck at web development that I can grow up with? How many have >> >> looked >> >> at it? How many failed? What are the barriers? The barrier that counts >> >> the >> >> most is the one that's keeping the most people from participating and >> >> benefiting. >> >> >> >> I don't really know how the open source world works from an >> >> organizational >> >> standpoint. Does the work (marketing, core tech, user on-boarding, >> >> internal >> >> project management, user project support, etc) get identified, scoped >> >> and >> >> set on by a team? What's the people structure? >> >> >> >> I'm not that worried about scaring the birds. They are hungry. Set out >> >> the >> >> (consumable) food regularly and they will, eventually, flock. I don't >> >> really >> >> know how birds tell each other there's food but they do. >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 12:57:25 PM UTC-5, Sebastian Sastre wrote: >> >>> >> >>> well said Chip >> >>> >> >>> so if "JavaScript is the new Smalltalk." then we all know that Amber >> >>> life's mission is fixing what's broken in the first place to make >> >>> Ingall's >> >>> phrase literally true. >> >>> >> >>> The problem is the world is not ready to listen to such brutal truth. >> >>> You'll scare all the little birds with your arrogance if you say it. >> >>> >> >>> So? >> >>> >> >>> Understand marketing: >> >>> >> >>> http://www.amazon.com/Spent-Sex-Evolution-Consumer-Behavior/dp/0143117238 >> >>> >> >>> also having tech co-founders in the Silicon Valley (or other tech >> >>> mecca)using it: >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> http://sebastianconcept.com/brandIt/how-to-have-an-ecosystem-around-your-technology >> >>> >> >>> lastly, a Kawasaki classic: >> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSlwuafyUUo >> >>> >> >>> sebastian >> >>> >> >>> o/ >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Mar 5, 2013, at 12:19 PM, Chip Nowacek wrote: >> >>> >> >>> As uncomfortable as it might be for him, Nico's the lead here, he's >> >>> the >> >>> face. Until someone else is designated as the mouthpiece, he's the >> >>> man. That >> >>> doesn't mean he has to do all the thinking and planning for marketing. >> >>> He's >> >>> got plenty on his plate. Thing is: people only identify with people. >> >>> For >> >>> now, Nico's the guy people can connect with: credentials, experience, >> >>> commitment, project understanding, raison d'être - all that. >> >>> >> >>> Amber is a good story: timeless thinking to manage JavaScript >> >>> complexity >> >>> (or something like that) >> >>> >> >>> I'm not sure leading with Smalltalk helps. Not to hide it. Don't >> >>> misunderstand. Bottom line, no one really cares - or shouldn't. Here's >> >>> what >> >>> matters: can you get your crap done on time and manage what you >> >>> created >> >>> after version 0.0.0.1a? That's what Amber is all about. Bringing order >> >>> to >> >>> JavaScript chaos. It's no coincidence that Smalltalk is probably the >> >>> best-planned language there is. Ingalls took his time, was careful, >> >>> and >> >>> built a language based on human needs instead of the needs of the >> >>> machine >> >>> because people create and machines do what they are told. But getting >> >>> into a >> >>> my-language-vs-your-language conversation is a waste of time. >> >>> Smalltalk's >> >>> edge will show in the results. That's where it counts. It's true (and >> >>> corporate types eat that stuff up). >> >>> >> >>> Amber's a big deal. It's got something good to say. And Nico has to >> >>> say >> >>> it (as we have to help him). >> >>> >> >>> I'd love to get an Ingalls quote. Right on the homepage. Has he said >> >>> something about the project? Does he know about it? >> >>> >> >>> On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 8:17:47 AM UTC-5, Chip Nowacek wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> I am running into it everywhere. Amber simply isn't mentioned in >> >>>> places >> >>>> that it should be. Check out the bottom of this Wikipedia entry: >> >>>> >> >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_browser >> >>>> >> >>>> Understanding of Amber has to be available or people...well...won't >> >>>> understand it. They won't or can't adopt what they don't understand. >> >>>> >> >>>> Is there a marketing plan? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >>> Groups >> >>> "amber-lang" group. >> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> >>> an >> >>> email to [hidden email]. >> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> Groups >> >> "amber-lang" group. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> >> an >> >> email to [hidden email]. >> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> > Groups >> > "amber-lang" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> > an >> > email to [hidden email]. >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> > Groups >> > "amber-lang" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> > an >> > email to [hidden email]. >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > >> > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "amber-lang" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [hidden email]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. |
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I believe First Category-ites stick their heads up once in awhile saying, "There has to be a better way." We'd just need a good billboard with an arrow on it. Build it and they will come (if there are street signs).
On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 6:10:28 PM UTC-5, [hidden email] wrote: Fishing the ones out of the first category that should be in the-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. |
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After these philosophical remarks maybe we can have a look again at
basic marketing requirements as Chip Nowacek put out earlier in this thread. Have something good to say Say it well Say it often There is also an opportunity rule: Take the biggest, fattest apple on the lowest branch So the question is: What is the message to tell people? And in which area does Amber provide as good solution as of now? --Hannes On 3/5/13, Chip Nowacek <[hidden email]> wrote: > I believe First Category-ites stick their heads up once in awhile saying, > "There has to be a better way." We'd just need a good billboard with an > arrow on it. Build it and they will come (if there are street signs). > > On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 6:10:28 PM UTC-5, [hidden email] wrote: >> >> Fishing the ones out of the first category that should be in the >> second is a good deed indeed! >> >> Nevermind, we'll prevail :-p >> >> 2013/3/6 Chip Nowacek <[hidden email] <javascript:>>: >> > Phil, hats off to you. Fortunately a tiny pool in nearly 7 billion >> people >> > still adds up to something worth chasing - unless we are all wrong. >> > >> > >> > On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 5:46:51 PM UTC-5, [hidden email] wrote: >> >> >> >> Smalltalk is good for small teams that cannot afford to spend too long >> >> >> >> shipping working code. >> >> >> >> "There is always time to do it wrong, never for doing it right. The >> >> problem I often see are teams that do it wrong 5 times and burn their >> >> available capital. Which means closing shop. Using the Smalltalk >> >> inspired way of thinking, they stand a better chance of doing right. >> >> But a lot of times, people prefer to fail (even repeatedly) with a >> >> semi plausible explanation for failure than risking succeeding. >> >> Usually, people attracted to Smalltalk are of the second category. >> >> Which means part of a very tiny pool. That's just how it is. So, use >> >> the better tools and to hell with the first category." --me >> >> >> >> Phil, putting the philosophical hat back on the hook >> >> >> >> 2013/3/5 Sebastian Heidbrink <[hidden email]>: >> >> > I think that Smalltalk is used by persons who check first what they >> are >> >> > using. Who think about beeing productive, efficient, big teams and >> >> > reliable. >> >> > >> >> > There are so may person's around there who just use the stuff they >> get >> >> > shown >> >> > or told by others without checking the other possibilities. They just >> >> > >> >> > follow >> >> > the crowd and , yes, follow bullshit sometimes. >> >> > >> >> > I just had some conversations with other Smalltalkers and vendors. >> >> > They all have the same question. "How can we promote Smalltalk >> better?! >> >> > And >> >> > where shall we promote?" >> >> > >> >> > Well I think first we need to find out what Smalltalk is usefull for. >> >> > >> >> > I mean taking a commercial Smalltalk and a unexperienced Developer. >> How >> >> > long >> >> > will he need to be able to write a real money bringing application? >> >> > And then compare it to JS. >> >> > One dialect has it's own dev methologies and complex IDE's and >> massive >> >> > coderepository solutions and relys on that. Nothing you will learn in >> >> > >> 4 >> >> > weeks. >> >> > And the other one just works with a text editor and google as an >> >> > information >> >> > source. >> >> > One provides a lot of opensource libraries with a lot of >> documentation >> >> > and >> >> > big communities. >> >> > The other provides just the rocksolid basement for applications which >> >> > >> >> > survives 15 years of developemnt and production. But you need to do a >> >> > >> >> > lot on >> >> > your own. >> >> > >> >> > So even if I knew both worlds, why should I choose Amber oppose to >> pure >> >> > JS? >> >> > Well, just because if I add a JS developer to my team I don't really >> >> > >> >> > know >> >> > what I get, but if I add a Smalltalkerto my team,..... well then I >> know >> >> > that >> >> > he thinks in frameworks and long lasting solutions and not fast >> money. >> >> > Or am I too old-fashioned now? >> >> > >> >> > Where's the right niche for Smalltalk? I think Amber is playing with >> >> > >> the >> >> > fire and is on the edge, but maybe I'm wrong. >> >> > >> >> > And yes Chip, I think nowadays people eat what's tasts good but don't >> >> > >> >> > think >> >> > about their health. >> >> > And that's... stupid... >> >> > So how can we provide smalltalk/Amber with good taste? Colour and >> flavor >> >> > and >> >> > some lies, that's how the others do it. >> >> > >> >> > Sebastian >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Am 05.03.2013 10:48, schrieb Chip Nowacek: >> >> > >> >> > Sebastian, I don't follow. Could you explain further? Are you saying >> >> > >> >> > that >> >> > Smalltalk appeals to a different kind of person, a more rare person, >> >> > >> a >> >> > more >> >> > serious person? >> >> > >> >> > On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 1:40:43 PM UTC-5, HCSebastian wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Well, Chip, maybe that's the explanation for it! >> >> >> >> >> >> The more (bull-) shit you find the more food must be around.... >> >> >> >> >> >> That's perhaps the reason why birds won't find Smalltalk. >> >> >> >> >> >> Or in other words. The less serious people exist the less serious >> stuff >> >> >> is >> >> >> bought and used. >> >> >> >> >> >> Sebastian >> >> >> >> >> >> Am 05.03.2013 10:28, schrieb Chip Nowacek: >> >> >> >> >> >> If I get nothing from Amber, I will have met Sebastian. >> >> >> >> >> >> The questions that have been wandering around in my head: how many >> >> >> active >> >> >> Amber projects are there? How many in production? Are there people >> like >> >> >> me >> >> >> that suck at web development that I can grow up with? How many have >> >> >> >> >> >> looked >> >> >> at it? How many failed? What are the barriers? The barrier that >> counts >> >> >> the >> >> >> most is the one that's keeping the most people from participating >> and >> >> >> benefiting. >> >> >> >> >> >> I don't really know how the open source world works from an >> >> >> organizational >> >> >> standpoint. Does the work (marketing, core tech, user on-boarding, >> >> >> internal >> >> >> project management, user project support, etc) get identified, >> scoped >> >> >> and >> >> >> set on by a team? What's the people structure? >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm not that worried about scaring the birds. They are hungry. Set >> out >> >> >> the >> >> >> (consumable) food regularly and they will, eventually, flock. I >> don't >> >> >> really >> >> >> know how birds tell each other there's food but they do. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 12:57:25 PM UTC-5, Sebastian Sastre wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> well said Chip >> >> >>> >> >> >>> so if "JavaScript is the new Smalltalk." then we all know that >> Amber >> >> >>> life's mission is fixing what's broken in the first place to make >> >> >>> Ingall's >> >> >>> phrase literally true. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> The problem is the world is not ready to listen to such brutal >> truth. >> >> >>> You'll scare all the little birds with your arrogance if you say >> it. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> So? >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Understand marketing: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> http://www.amazon.com/Spent-Sex-Evolution-Consumer-Behavior/dp/0143117238 >> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> also having tech co-founders in the Silicon Valley (or other tech >> >> >>> mecca)using it: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> http://sebastianconcept.com/brandIt/how-to-have-an-ecosystem-around-your-technology >> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> lastly, a Kawasaki classic: >> >> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSlwuafyUUo >> >> >>> >> >> >>> sebastian >> >> >>> >> >> >>> o/ >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> On Mar 5, 2013, at 12:19 PM, Chip Nowacek wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> As uncomfortable as it might be for him, Nico's the lead here, he's >> >> >>> >> >> >>> the >> >> >>> face. Until someone else is designated as the mouthpiece, he's the >> >> >>> >> >> >>> man. That >> >> >>> doesn't mean he has to do all the thinking and planning for >> marketing. >> >> >>> He's >> >> >>> got plenty on his plate. Thing is: people only identify with >> people. >> >> >>> For >> >> >>> now, Nico's the guy people can connect with: credentials, >> experience, >> >> >>> commitment, project understanding, raison d'être - all that. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Amber is a good story: timeless thinking to manage JavaScript >> >> >>> complexity >> >> >>> (or something like that) >> >> >>> >> >> >>> I'm not sure leading with Smalltalk helps. Not to hide it. Don't >> >> >>> misunderstand. Bottom line, no one really cares - or shouldn't. >> Here's >> >> >>> what >> >> >>> matters: can you get your crap done on time and manage what you >> >> >>> created >> >> >>> after version 0.0.0.1a? That's what Amber is all about. Bringing >> order >> >> >>> to >> >> >>> JavaScript chaos. It's no coincidence that Smalltalk is probably >> the >> >> >>> best-planned language there is. Ingalls took his time, was careful, >> >> >>> >> >> >>> and >> >> >>> built a language based on human needs instead of the needs of the >> >> >>> machine >> >> >>> because people create and machines do what they are told. But >> getting >> >> >>> into a >> >> >>> my-language-vs-your-language conversation is a waste of time. >> >> >>> Smalltalk's >> >> >>> edge will show in the results. That's where it counts. It's true >> (and >> >> >>> corporate types eat that stuff up). >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Amber's a big deal. It's got something good to say. And Nico has to >> >> >>> >> >> >>> say >> >> >>> it (as we have to help him). >> >> >>> >> >> >>> I'd love to get an Ingalls quote. Right on the homepage. Has he >> said >> >> >>> something about the project? Does he know about it? >> >> >>> >> >> >>> On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 8:17:47 AM UTC-5, Chip Nowacek wrote: >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> I am running into it everywhere. Amber simply isn't mentioned in >> >> >>>> places >> >> >>>> that it should be. Check out the bottom of this Wikipedia entry: >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_browser >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Understanding of Amber has to be available or >> people...well...won't >> >> >>>> understand it. They won't or can't adopt what they don't >> understand. >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Is there a marketing plan? >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> -- >> >> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Groups >> >> >>> "amber-lang" group. >> >> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> send >> >> >>> an >> >> >>> email to [hidden email]. >> >> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> >> Groups >> >> >> "amber-lang" group. >> >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> send >> >> >> an >> >> >> email to [hidden email]. >> >> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > -- >> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> > Groups >> >> > "amber-lang" group. >> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> send >> >> > an >> >> > email to [hidden email]. >> >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> > Groups >> >> > "amber-lang" group. >> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> send >> >> > an >> >> > email to [hidden email]. >> >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups >> > "amber-lang" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> an >> > email to [hidden email] <javascript:>. >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > >> > >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "amber-lang" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [hidden email]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. |
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