• Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

I'm sorry if it looked very negative, I am not good in communicating
skills. I did not mean it in bad way. I just wanted to point out that
according to my experiences with open-source projects, things can hardly
be organized from up. I was contributing to those project that were
beatiful/interesting/sexy, have immediate utility for me, or, ideally,
both (Amber is in that position currently, I am adding new features
because I need them in a project I am implementing using Amber).

It seemed to me a bit like lot of energy pointed in the ineffective
direction, so I wanted to steer it a bit it the (just in my opinion)
right way. I may be wrong and things like organizing is needed; but from
what I experienced up till now, people do what _they_ find useful, in
unorganized manner.

Chip Nowacek wrote:

> I'm nobody, Herby. Just a suggestion. And I don't see how the parts of
> the body can be coordinated without a brain - Nico's brain. There's just
> a lot to do and he can't do it all. If he tries, Amber will fail. There
> are a lot of people pulling for Amber's success. They just need help
> knowing how to contribute in ways that compliment the work of others.
> Both duplicated and neglected effort demotivates everyone. It's no fun.
>
> I see a leader's job is, exactly as you say, to understand the potent
> lure and help everyone get there together. I'm not into power
> structures. I am into the whole being greater than the sum of the parts.
>
> I think Amber has a real role to play in the world. And, again, I'm nobody.
>
> I have to get back to figuring out how to get a button on my screen.
> There's no good reason to listen to me anyway. If I don't get this app
> written, I'm cooked. I have to "unsuck" as a developer here pretty quickly.
>
> By the way, there needs to be more intro material. Who's doing that? :)
>
> On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 3:57:37 PM UTC-5, Herby wrote:
>
>
>
>     Chip Nowacek wrote:
>      > Yes, yes, yes. I think Darius and Sebastian have laid quite the
>      > foundation. They identify thousands of potential Amberian
>     Smalltalkers.
>      >
>      > Nico!!!! Once the next release is out, I might suggest a
>     gathering of
>      > those interested in Amber's future to discuss which apple is
>     biggest and
>      > closest and organize a team to address the work required, tech and
>
>     I am very skeptical to "organize a team". Either it works from the
>     bottom, "self-organizing" (of course, there must be a potent lure, and
>     that may be worked on), or there won't be anything. At least not in
>     open-source. But that's just my view.
>
>      > "non"-tech, to reach out and pick it.
>      >
>      > People love to be wooed.
>
>     Herby
>
> --
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>
>

After these philosophical remarks maybe we can have a look again at
basic marketing requirements as Chip Nowacek put out earlier in this
thread.


    Have something good to say
    Say it well
    Say it often

There is also an opportunity rule:

    Take the biggest, fattest apple on the lowest branch


So the question is: What is the message to tell people?

And in which area does Amber provide as good solution as of now?

--Hannes

On 3/5/13, Chip Nowacek <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="MTH14E_qxpIJ">two.st...@...> wrote:

> I believe First Category-ites stick their heads up once in awhile saying,
> "There has to be a better way." We'd just need a good billboard with an
> arrow on it. Build it and they will come (if there are street signs).
>
> On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 6:10:28 PM UTC-5, [hidden email] wrote:
>>
>> Fishing the ones out of the first category that should be in the
>> second is a good deed indeed!
>>
>> Nevermind, we'll prevail :-p
>>
>> 2013/3/6 Chip Nowacek <[hidden email] <javascript:>>:
>> > Phil, hats off to you. Fortunately a tiny pool in nearly 7 billion
>> people
>> > still adds up to something worth chasing - unless we are all wrong.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 5:46:51 PM UTC-5, [hidden email] wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Smalltalk is good for small teams that cannot afford to spend too long
>> >>
>> >> shipping working code.
>> >>
>> >> "There is always time to do it wrong, never for doing it right. The
>> >> problem I often see are teams that do it wrong 5 times and burn their
>> >> available capital. Which means closing shop. Using the Smalltalk
>> >> inspired way of thinking, they stand a better chance of doing right.
>> >> But a lot of times, people prefer to fail (even repeatedly) with a
>> >> semi plausible explanation for failure than risking succeeding.
>> >> Usually, people attracted to Smalltalk are of the second category.
>> >> Which means part of a very tiny pool. That's just how it is. So, use
>> >> the better tools and to hell with the first category." --me
>> >>
>> >> Phil, putting the philosophical hat back on the hook
>> >>
>> >> 2013/3/5 Sebastian Heidbrink <[hidden email]>:
>> >> > I think that Smalltalk is used by persons who check first what they
>> are
>> >> > using. Who think about beeing productive, efficient, big teams and
>> >> > reliable.
>> >> >
>> >> > There are so may person's around there who just use the stuff they
>> get
>> >> > shown
>> >> > or told by others without checking the other possibilities. They just
>> >> >
>> >> > follow
>> >> > the crowd and , yes, follow bullshit sometimes.
>> >> >
>> >> > I just had some conversations with other Smalltalkers and vendors.
>> >> > They all have the same question. "How can we promote Smalltalk
>> better?!
>> >> > And
>> >> > where shall we promote?"
>> >> >
>> >> > Well I think first we need to find out what Smalltalk is usefull for.
>> >> >
>> >> > I mean taking a commercial Smalltalk and a unexperienced Developer.
>> How
>> >> > long
>> >> > will he need to be able to write a real money bringing application?
>> >> > And then compare it to JS.
>> >> > One dialect has it's own dev methologies and complex IDE's and
>> massive
>> >> > coderepository solutions and relys on that. Nothing you will learn in
>> >> >
>> 4
>> >> > weeks.
>> >> > And the other one just works with a text editor and google as an
>> >> > information
>> >> > source.
>> >> > One provides a lot of opensource libraries with a lot of
>> documentation
>> >> > and
>> >> > big communities.
>> >> > The other provides just the rocksolid basement for applications which
>> >> >
>> >> > survives 15 years of developemnt and production. But you need to do a
>> >> >
>> >> > lot on
>> >> > your own.
>> >> >
>> >> > So even if I knew both worlds, why should I choose Amber oppose to
>> pure
>> >> > JS?
>> >> > Well, just because if I add a JS developer to my team I don't really
>> >> >
>> >> > know
>> >> > what I get, but if I add a Smalltalkerto my team,..... well then I
>> know
>> >> > that
>> >> > he thinks in frameworks and long lasting solutions and not fast
>> money.
>> >> > Or am I too old-fashioned now?
>> >> >
>> >> > Where's the right niche for Smalltalk? I think Amber is playing with
>> >> >
>> the
>> >> > fire and is on the edge, but maybe I'm wrong.
>> >> >
>> >> > And yes Chip, I think nowadays people eat what's tasts good but don't
>> >> >
>> >> > think
>> >> > about their health.
>> >> > And that's... stupid...
>> >> > So how can we provide smalltalk/Amber with good taste? Colour and
>> flavor
>> >> > and
>> >> > some lies, that's how the others do it.
>> >> >
>> >> > Sebastian
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Am 05.03.2013 10:48, schrieb Chip Nowacek:
>> >> >
>> >> > Sebastian, I don't follow. Could you explain further? Are you saying
>> >> >
>> >> > that
>> >> > Smalltalk appeals to a different kind of person, a more rare person,
>> >> >
>> a
>> >> > more
>> >> > serious person?
>> >> >
>> >> > On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 1:40:43 PM UTC-5, HCSebastian wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Well, Chip, maybe that's the explanation for it!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The more (bull-) shit you find the more food must be around....
>> >> >>
>> >> >> That's perhaps the reason why birds won't find Smalltalk.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Or in other words. The less serious people exist the less serious
>> stuff
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> bought and used.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Sebastian
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Am 05.03.2013 10:28, schrieb Chip Nowacek:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If I get nothing from Amber, I will have met Sebastian.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The questions that have been wandering around in my head: how many
>> >> >> active
>> >> >> Amber projects are there? How many in production? Are there people
>> like
>> >> >> me
>> >> >> that suck at web development that I can grow up with? How many have
>> >> >>
>> >> >> looked
>> >> >> at it? How many failed? What are the barriers? The barrier that
>> counts
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> most is the one that's keeping the most people from participating
>> and
>> >> >> benefiting.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I don't really know how the open source world works from an
>> >> >> organizational
>> >> >> standpoint. Does the work (marketing, core tech, user on-boarding,
>> >> >> internal
>> >> >> project management, user project support, etc) get identified,
>> scoped
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> set on by a team? What's the people structure?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I'm not that worried about scaring the birds. They are hungry. Set
>> out
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> (consumable) food regularly and they will, eventually, flock. I
>> don't
>> >> >> really
>> >> >> know how birds tell each other there's food but they do.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 12:57:25 PM UTC-5, Sebastian Sastre wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> well said Chip
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> so if "JavaScript is the new Smalltalk." then we all know that
>> Amber
>> >> >>> life's mission is fixing what's broken in the first place to make
>> >> >>> Ingall's
>> >> >>> phrase literally true.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The problem is the world is not ready to listen to such brutal
>> truth.
>> >> >>> You'll scare all the little birds with your arrogance if you say
>> it.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> So?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Understand marketing:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/Spent-Sex-Evolution-Consumer-Behavior/dp/0143117238
>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> also having tech co-founders in the Silicon Valley (or other tech
>> >> >>> mecca)using it:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> http://sebastianconcept.com/brandIt/how-to-have-an-ecosystem-around-your-technology
>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> lastly, a Kawasaki classic:
>> >> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSlwuafyUUo
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> sebastian
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> o/
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On Mar 5, 2013, at 12:19 PM, Chip Nowacek wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> As uncomfortable as it might be for him, Nico's the lead here, he's
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> face. Until someone else is designated as the mouthpiece, he's the
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> man. That
>> >> >>> doesn't mean he has to do all the thinking and planning for
>> marketing.
>> >> >>> He's
>> >> >>> got plenty on his plate. Thing is: people only identify with
>> people.
>> >> >>> For
>> >> >>> now, Nico's the guy people can connect with: credentials,
>> experience,
>> >> >>> commitment, project understanding, raison d'être - all that.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Amber is a good story: timeless thinking to manage JavaScript
>> >> >>> complexity
>> >> >>> (or something like that)
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I'm not sure leading with Smalltalk helps. Not to hide it. Don't
>> >> >>> misunderstand. Bottom line, no one really cares - or shouldn't.
>> Here's
>> >> >>> what
>> >> >>> matters: can you get your crap done on time and manage what you
>> >> >>> created
>> >> >>> after version 0.0.0.1a? That's what Amber is all about. Bringing
>> order
>> >> >>> to
>> >> >>> JavaScript chaos. It's no coincidence that Smalltalk is probably
>> the
>> >> >>> best-planned language there is. Ingalls took his time, was careful,
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> and
>> >> >>> built a language based on human needs instead of the needs of the
>> >> >>> machine
>> >> >>> because people create and machines do what they are told. But
>> getting
>> >> >>> into a
>> >> >>> my-language-vs-your-language conversation is a waste of time.
>> >> >>> Smalltalk's
>> >> >>> edge will show in the results. That's where it counts. It's true
>> (and
>> >> >>> corporate types eat that stuff up).
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Amber's a big deal. It's got something good to say. And Nico has to
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> say
>> >> >>> it (as we have to help him).
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I'd love to get an Ingalls quote. Right on the homepage. Has he
>> said
>> >> >>> something about the project? Does he know about it?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 8:17:47 AM UTC-5, Chip Nowacek wrote:
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> I am running into it everywhere. Amber simply isn't mentioned in
>> >> >>>> places
>> >> >>>> that it should be. Check out the bottom of this Wikipedia entry:
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_browser
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Understanding of Amber has to be available or
>> people...well...won't
>> >> >>>> understand it. They won't or can't adopt what they don't
>> understand.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Is there a marketing plan?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> --
>> >> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Groups
>> >> >>> "amber-lang" group.
>> >> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>> send
>> >> >>> an
>> >> >>> email to amber-lang+...@googlegroups.com.
>> >> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >> --
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>> >> >> "amber-lang" group.
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>> >> >> an
>> >> >> email to amber-lang+...@googlegroups.com.
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>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> > --
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>> >> > "amber-lang" group.
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>> >> > an
>> >> > email to amber-lang+...@googlegroups.com.
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>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
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>> >> > "amber-lang" group.
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>> >> > an
>> >> > email to amber-lang+...@googlegroups.com.
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>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >
>> > --
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>
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>
>

Who cares. Let's be contrarian.

2013/3/5 Herby Vojčík <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="yN89Wk6Wsj4J">he...@...>:

> Ingalls also said: "JavaScript is the new Smalltalk." ;-)
>
> Chip Nowacek wrote:
>>
>> As uncomfortable as it might be for him, Nico's the lead here, he's the
>> face. Until someone else is designated as the mouthpiece, he's the man. That
>> doesn't mean he has to do all the thinking and planning for marketing. He's
>> got plenty on his plate. Thing is: people only identify with people. For
>> now, Nico's the guy people can connect with: credentials, experience,
>> commitment, project understanding, raison d'être - all that.
>>
>> Amber is a good story: timeless thinking to manage JavaScript complexity
>> (or something like that)
>>
>> I'm not sure leading with Smalltalk helps. Not to hide it. Don't
>> misunderstand. Bottom line, no one really cares - or shouldn't. Here's what
>> matters: can you get your crap done on time and manage what you created
>> after version 0.0.0.1a? That's what Amber is all about. Bringing order to
>> JavaScript chaos. It's no coincidence that Smalltalk
>
>
>> is probably the best-planned language there is. Ingalls took his time, was
>> careful, and built a language based on human needs instead of the needs of
>> the machine because people create and machines do what they are told. But
>> getting into a my-language-vs-your-language conversation is a waste of time.
>> Smalltalk's edge will show in the results. That's where it counts. It's true
>> (and corporate types eat that stuff up).
>>
>> Amber's a big deal. It's got something good to say. And Nico has to say it
>> (as we have to help him).
>>
>> I'd love to get an Ingalls quote. Right on the homepage. Has he said
>> something about the project? Does he know about it?
>>
>> On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 8:17:47 AM UTC-5, Chip Nowacek wrote:
>>
>>     I am running into it everywhere. Amber simply isn't mentioned in
>>     places that it should be. Check out the bottom of this Wikipedia
>>     entry:
>>
>>     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_browser
>>     <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class
>
> _browser>
>>
>>
>>     Understanding of Amber has to be available or
>>     people...well...won't understand it. They won't or can't adopt
>>     what they don't understand.
>>
>>     Is there a marketing plan?
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "amber-lang" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to <a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="yN89Wk6Wsj4J">amber-lang+...@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>
>>
>
> --
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>

To have a person in charge can slow things down. But to have no one in charge makes it harder to add up the work of many persons.

Growing a Language, by Guy Steele @ 24:16

I'm sorry if it looked very negative, I am not good in communicating
skills. I did not mean it in bad way. I just wanted to point out that
according to my experiences with open-source projects, things can hardly
be organized from up. I was contributing to those project that were
beatiful/interesting/sexy, have immediate utility for me, or, ideally,
both (Amber is in that position currently, I am adding new features
because I need them in a project I am implementing using Amber).

It seemed to me a bit like lot of energy pointed in the ineffective
direction, so I wanted to steer it a bit it the (just in my opinion)
right way. I may be wrong and things like organizing is needed; but from
what I experienced up till now, people do what _they_ find useful, in
unorganized manner.

Chip Nowacek wrote:

> I'm nobody, Herby. Just a suggestion. And I don't see how the parts of
> the body can be coordinated without a brain - Nico's brain. There's just
> a lot to do and he can't do it all. If he tries, Amber will fail. There
> are a lot of people pulling for Amber's success. They just need help
> knowing how to contribute in ways that compliment the work of others.
> Both duplicated and neglected effort demotivates everyone. It's no fun.
>
> I see a leader's job is, exactly as you say, to understand the potent
> lure and help everyone get there together. I'm not into power
> structures. I am into the whole being greater than the sum of the parts.
>
> I think Amber has a real role to play in the world. And, again, I'm nobody.
>
> I have to get back to figuring out how to get a button on my screen.
> There's no good reason to listen to me anyway. If I don't get this app
> written, I'm cooked. I have to "unsuck" as a developer here pretty quickly.
>
> By the way, there needs to be more intro material. Who's doing that? :)
>
> On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 3:57:37 PM UTC-5, Herby wrote:
>
>
>
>     Chip Nowacek wrote:
>      > Yes, yes, yes. I think Darius and Sebastian have laid quite the
>      > foundation. They identify thousands of potential Amberian
>     Smalltalkers.
>      >
>      > Nico!!!! Once the next release is out, I might suggest a
>     gathering of
>      > those interested in Amber's future to discuss which apple is
>     biggest and
>      > closest and organize a team to address the work required, tech and
>
>     I am very skeptical to "organize a team". Either it works from the
>     bottom, "self-organizing" (of course, there must be a potent lure, and
>     that may be worked on), or there won't be anything. At least not in
>     open-source. But that's just my view.
>
>      > "non"-tech, to reach out and pick it.
>      >
>      > People love to be wooed.
>
>     Herby
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
>