Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

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Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

Frank-B
Hello,

the available documentation on Orca looks brilliant and the source, Hasso-Plattner-Institut in Potsdam, has an excellent reputation. It looks all very professional.

I am therefore most suprised that I cannot find any tracks of usage of Orca, neither here, nor elsewhere on the net, and not even any serious discussions.

Does anybody here have practical experience with Orca?
Critics?
Recommendations?

My goal is to use it for a real-life business application rather than the ST2JS, which would be the second alternative. All of my server software is written in Smalltalk anyway.

Thank you in advance for any comment.

Frank
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Re: Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

Stephan Eggermont-3
On 12-08-17 22:24, Frank Berger Software wrote:
> the available documentation on Orca looks brilliant and the source,
> Hasso-Plattner-Institut in Potsdam, has an excellent reputation. It
> looks all very professional.
>
> I am therefore most suprised that I cannot find any tracks of usage of
> Orca, neither here, nor elsewhere on the net, and not even any serious
> discussions.

It was indeed a well-executed bachelor project from HPI, that was
submitted for the ESUG21011 InnovationTechnologyAwards. It was released
under MIT at the end of the project. HPI however, is a research
institute and needs to be very careful about which projects it can
afford to support indefinitely.

https://github.com/bp2010h1
http://esug.org/wiki/pier/Conferences/2011/InnovationTechnologyAwards/Submissions
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/orcaproject/

Stephan


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Re: Using Orca for a modern 'sexy' Smalltalk User Interface

Frank-B
@Stephan

Granted and agreed!

But that does not explain why it seems that nobody has really used this obviously brilliant Orca approach!

In my view, this Orca approach seems by far 'better' in many respects than some pseudo-solutions that expect us to program in the browser (= just absurd) and which neglect the gigantic advantages of our Smalltalk IDEs over the JavaScript world.

Any Smalltalker who has ever tried to develop a bigger piece of JavsScript code (like I did) must have been disgusted by the stone-age status of the available tools and should welcome the availability to develop client-server solution entirely in Smalltalk.

And today, with the availability of WebSockets, there should even be far better ways of having an Orca-based client communicate with a Smalltalk driven server on a message-passing level. It seems that WebSockets have not been used in Orca in 2011 and before, but it should not be problem to add them.

Further, I see TIRADE by Göran Krampe http://goran.krampe.se/category/tirade/  as another useful addition.

But most importantly, Orca should be the basis for a much better alternative to this (in my view) insane, ugly and very slow Seaside.

Orca is the perfect tool to create a modern and entirely browser-based user interface with ONE single source code for browser AND desktop based Smalltalk driven applications.

This would overcome our (Smalltalk in general) greatest deficiency and that has always been the user-interface, which is the by far most decisive success factor for every application software today.

Look at the Smalltalk UI status, which for me is still nothing but a tragedy:

Desk-top only UI definitions exist in VA and Dolphin where Dolphin is at least close to what most users consider and expect as the standard and that is, if we like it or not, Windows.

The same is true for VW where the VisualWorks UI is internally totally insane, undocumented, old-fashioned in many aspects, not multi-lingual at all (despite their claims), 'polling', it’s simply “kaputt” from the very beginning.

Squeak’s UI is out of any discussion and Pharo‘s UI is somewhat more modern but miles away from what end-users expect and tolerate, not to mention what they would love as an application UI.

Having separate UI code for the desk-top and the browser is a sick idea anyway and therefore NO Smalltalk today is really suitable for developing modern, end-user friendly, simply “sexy” user interfaces.

I have always been convinced that the total absence of a 'good UI' in Smalltalk for desk-top and browser has been the major reason for Smalltalk's failure to attract a large and prefessional (developers of wide-spread standard software) user-base, apart from the greed [Goldberg] and arrogance towards the UI and the absurd licensing conditions and price-wishes of the early managers not only at ParcPlace but also at their successors (some of their licencing is rather slavery).

Shouldn't we finally change this sad situation?
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Re: Using Orca for a modern 'sexy' Smalltalk User Interface

SergeStinckwich
You should have a look to PharoJS that allows you to deploy Pharo app in the browser: https://pharojs.github.io/

PharoJS is fully supported.

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 13 août 2017 à 13:42, Frank-B <[hidden email]> a écrit :

@Stephan

Granted and agreed!

But that does not explain why it seems that nobody has really used this
obviously brilliant Orca approach!

In my view, this Orca approach seems by far 'better' in many respects than
some pseudo-solutions that expect us to program in the browser (= just
absurd) and which neglect the gigantic advantages of our Smalltalk IDEs over
the JavaScript world.

Any Smalltalker who has ever tried to develop a bigger piece of JavsScript
code (like I did) must have been disgusted by the stone-age status of the
available tools and should welcome the availability to develop client-server
solution entirely in Smalltalk.

And today, with the availability of WebSockets, there should even be far
better ways of having an Orca-based client communicate with a Smalltalk
driven server on a message-passing level. It seems that WebSockets have not
been used in Orca in 2011 and before, but it should not be problem to add
them.

Further, I see TIRADE by Göran Krampe
http://goran.krampe.se/category/tirade/  as another useful addition.

But most importantly, Orca should be the basis for a much better alternative
to this (in my view) insane, ugly and very slow Seaside.

Orca is the perfect tool to create a modern and entirely browser-based user
interface with ONE single source code for browser AND desktop based
Smalltalk driven applications.

This would overcome our (Smalltalk in general) greatest deficiency and that
has always been the user-interface, which is the by far most decisive
success factor for every application software today.

Look at the *Smalltalk UI status*, which for me is still nothing but a
*tragedy*:

Desk-top only UI definitions exist in *VA and Dolphin* where Dolphin is at
least close to what most users consider and expect as the standard and that
is, if we like it or not, Windows.

The same is true for VW where the *VisualWorks UI* is internally totally
insane, undocumented, old-fashioned in many aspects, not multi-lingual at
all (despite their claims), 'polling', it’s simply “kaputt” from the very
beginning.

*Squeak’s UI* is out of any discussion and *Pharo‘s UI* is somewhat more
modern but miles away from what end-users expect and tolerate, not to
mention what they would love as an application UI.

Having separate UI code for the desk-top and the browser is a sick idea
anyway and therefore NO Smalltalk today is really suitable for developing
modern, end-user friendly, simply “sexy” user interfaces.

I have always been convinced that the total absence of a 'good UI' in
Smalltalk for desk-top and browser has been *the major reason for
Smalltalk's failure* to attract a large and prefessional (developers of
wide-spread standard software) user-base, apart from the greed [Goldberg]
and arrogance towards the UI and the absurd licensing conditions and
price-wishes of the early managers not only at ParcPlace but also at their
successors (some of their licencing is rather slavery).

Shouldn't we finally change this sad situation?



--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p4960668.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: Orca versus PharoJS

Frank-B
@Serge
 
Merci beaucoup for the recommendation but I had looked at the PharoJS page a few times before and I had not touched it, simply because it's the usual thing that there is absolutely no meaningful information, description, features list etc available. The slides don't really tell anything either and the FAQ mainly tells where to get cups and shirts (ok that was nasty).
 
There are so many merely academic pseudo-solutions especially in the Squeak and Pharo area, most of which have never really made it to production state, that over the years I have become extremely sceptical. It's a great pity in my eyes, because there are definitely many very bright people engaged there and here. Unfortunately, many if not most Smalltalkers are very far away in their perception and thinking from the end-users.
 
The Orca docs are just the total opposite, they are very detailed, extremely professional and very convincing. But I don't know yet about the code behind and because of that I will now give PharoJS a try and look at it.
 
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Re: PharoJS fails at first attempt

Frank-B
@Serge and @those who developed PharoJS

My first attempt to play with PharoJS failed.
See here: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-tp4960686.html

Actually, this is what I had expected, because it resembles (unfortunately) my general experience with Squeak/Pharo from several occaisional attempts to use them.
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Re: Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

Stephan Eggermont-3
In reply to this post by Frank-B
Hi Frank,

It must be very frustrating to see so many possibly interesting projects that are so difficult to get started with, being it because of lack of development and migration to the latest versions, or because of lack of documentation. It is a feeling I, and no doubt a lot of other smalltalkers, share.

Our open source community consist of people spending a lot of their time on Pharo. A few of them are paid to do so, some more make it their bachelor, master or PhD project, and for even more it is just a hobby or side project. They all have different objectives with their projects, and different constraints.

To get good results with our community, effective communications is essential. That allows us to develop multiple projects in a way that creates synergy, and a coherent whole.

I find a crucial element of effective communication is to build up a connection, so others are able to hear your message. Your first message in this thread is excellent.

Telling people they are not professional, and do a bad job, without knowing about the context in which the code was produced, is unlikely to lead to effective communications. People who feel attacked are no longer open to your message, irrespective of the contents.

Effective communications has also nothing to do with PC or 'truth', and especially not the absolute and blaming kind. Posing opinions as truths looks less than helpful to me. I find clearly separating facts, feelings, needs, and strategies to fulfill those needs more effective.

Creating documentation takes time and effort. That needs to be balanced against other priorities. You might not like the priorities others set, but you are not paying (in money nor effort). Also, we can only start at the position we are now in, no matter how much we want to be somewhere else.

This is open source, so please let us know where you want to contribute so we can help you getting started.

Stephan

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Re: Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

Frank-B
Stephan,

nice ironies! My compliments for this!

I won't comment your attempts to justify the "I contribute for my ego", which is published as a great Smalltalk system. I have made my point clear!

One comment on this:
Your first message in this thread is excellent.
I would expect most intelligent people to be interested in and gratefiul for honest experience reports and comments on the work one has done, especially when they come from a very experience collegues who has been in this business twice as long or more as presumably the majority of people here. Bur, or course, you are free (but not welcome with me) to have your own very different opinion like the chicks often being wiser than the hen.

So let me comment this foolishness:
Creating documentation takes time and effort. That needs to be balanced against other priorities.
I feel sorry for you if you really have not yet understood that proper, early and complete documentation and comments ARE ONLY an investment in the code, because they save time and efforts later on, which always pay back - mostly multiple times.

With my >35 years in the software business and around 30 years in o-o technologies it'd be a waste of time to disucss such statements with somebody who unfortunately has not been tought such core wisdoms at university. But to me this comes as no surprise, as almost all "teachers" in the broader sense on universities - at least in Europa - have hardly any practical experience themselves -  much like the surgeon who has never performed an appendix operation but wants to teach student how to do it.  And, of course, the duration of being in a business as such is no guarantee for expertise but still it increases its probabilty enormously.

After all, you are all trying to point away from the essential questions:

Why is Pharo giving it's name for an obviously (at first glance) lousy implemetation where not even the prepared demo parts are runnig out of the box? Is that ok for you?

And why are we discussing only "my impertinence" to point openly on bugs and missing documentation!?!?

This is so absurd!

Frank




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Re: PharoJS fails at first attempt

Stephane Ducasse-3
In reply to this post by Frank-B
Hi frank

You can contact noury at [hidden email]
Serge does not work on PharoJS. Noury and Dave are.

Stef

On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 4:50 PM, Frank-B <[hidden email]> wrote:

> @Serge and @those who developed PharoJS
>
> My first attempt to play with PharoJS failed.
> See here: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-tp4960686.html
>
> Actually, this is what I had expected, because it resembles (unfortunately)
> my general experience with Squeak/Pharo from several occaisional attempts to
> use them.
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p4960689.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>

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Re: PharoJS fails at first attempt

Frank-B
Merci!
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Re: Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

Stephan Eggermont-3
In reply to this post by Frank-B
Frank wrote:
I feel sorry for you if you really have not yet understood that proper, early and complete documentation and comments ARE ONLY an investment in the code, because they save time and efforts later on, which always pay back - mostly multiple times. 

Perhaps you might want to explain to me the return on investment of the Orca documentation then? Zero users, zero return on investment. 

I feel annoyed if you talk in absolutes like that, because I know that there are lots of situations where creating documentation is a waste of effort. And I have also been bitten by lack of documentation. And I have even been in a situation where both happened at the same time, where a lot of effort was put in creating the wrong kind of documentation. Oh, and I even wrote a bit of documentation myself. 

I have been thought many things at university, and there were many more things I had to learn in industry. And from open source projects, which have other things to teach. 

Investing means making decisions. Fully documented non-working code has no value. Working code that no-one can use neither. 

Your current communication is manipulative: you try to put yourself in a dominant position by using absolutes, saying you feel sorry for me, and bragging about your experience. That annoys me. If you want to convince me, use arguments. 

Stephan

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Re: Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

Frank-B
Stephan

Perhaps you might want to explain to me the return on investment of the Orca documentation then? Zero users, zero return on investment.
What are you talking about?!

a) The external documentation of Orca is brilliant. I have not yet had time to look into the internal comments. So your statement us wrong in this respect.
b) I have no clue how many users Orca has. Only politicians and journalists are accepted to talk about things that they haven't got any clue of. I am neither of both.
c) This is an university. Their purpose in life is to teach - and really also to research, but that has mostly been forgotten.
d) The unique, wise and old German language, that we both speak, has a unqiue word for it: "Wissenschaft" but they mostly do neiher of both: no or little "Wissen" (knowledge) and no "schafft" (create).

It seems to me that Orca is a great and rare exception to thus rule. read danisch.de to learn more.

I feel annoyed if you talk in absolutes like that, because I know that there are lots of situations where creating documentation is a waste of effort.
a) If someone "feels annoyed" by statements and experiences of somebody else, this is only and exclusively the problem of the person who claims to "feel annoyed" - and in most cases a replacement for missing arguments and, even far worse, an attempt to suppress the freedom of speech. Why don't you ask your psychiatrist for help (yes, that was nasty, but it fitted in)?
b) To every rule, there may be some exception. Here, they are not worth a discussion, in my opinion.

And I have also been bitten by lack of documentation.
So you should rather agree wtih me! Why don't you?

And I have even been in a situation where both happened at the same time, where a lot of effort was put in creating the wrong kind of documentation. Oh, and I even wrote a bit of documentation myself.
Never heard of the 80:20 rule?

even wrote a bit of documentation myself
Great! My congratulations. It's hard to suppress the irony in my brain!

Investing means making decisions. Fully documented non-working code has no value. Working code that no-one can use neither.
Perhaps you ask for the cause(s)?
Lots of people can't distinguish between cause and consequences. Perhaps this was the case when doc was missing? I don't know the cases you experienced. And I don't know any similar cases from my past, because ALL that was developed under my leadership was extremely well documented.

Your current communication is manipulative: you try to put yourself in a dominant position by using absolutes, saying you feel sorry for me, and bragging about your experience. That annoys me. If you want to convince me, use arguments.
1) Fisherman's Friends has advertised over years at least in German (I do not know about other languages) with a phrase that has become a regular proverb in German: "Sind sie zu stark - bist du zu schwach" - Are they [here: my argument] too strong, you are too weak".

So if you feel "manipulated" by someone stating his experiences from >35 years in software development, pardon, but that's only your personal problem, not mine!

2) The same applies to what you call "dominant". All the women that I have been affiliated closer with, did like and appreciated very much my very "care-full" (in the original sense of the word) but in situations, which require this, still somewhat dominant attitude. The word has always been my sword!

3) Finally:
If you want to convince me, use arguments.
I have made my points very clear in this and the neighboring thread. Please just read it and try to understand (but I honestly doubt you want to).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication
Of please don't come up with this lousy CIA organization that is full of lies, distortion of facts and suppression of truth (especially in history). This is the worst part of "Lügenpresse" (even more the German version than the English one).

I wrote here before: Truth is the new "hate crime". We are approching times of suppression that we Germans had twice before both by Socialists (same today) and behind both were the same people that want to silence us today again. I shall never surrender to this censorship and I detest eveybody who does!

Habe die Ehre (if you know what Bavarians really mean with this salutation).

Frank
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Re: Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

Eliot Miranda-2
In reply to this post by Frank-B
Hi Frank,


On Aug 12, 2017, at 1:24 PM, Frank Berger Software <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello,

the available documentation on Orca looks brilliant and the source, Hasso-Plattner-Institut in Potsdam, has an excellent reputation. It looks all very professional.

I am therefore most suprised that I cannot find any tracks of usage of Orca, neither here, nor elsewhere on the net, and not even any serious discussions.

Does anybody here have practical experience with Orca?
Critics?
Recommendations?

Craig Latta has done some strong work integrating Squeak and Pharo with the browser using a bridge derived from Bert Freudenberg's SqueakJS. Craig's work allows one to use Pharo running on the standard Cog VM, client side, to render to the browser, receive events from the browser, and manipulate the DOM. 

You could contact him to find out if his work is relevant to you.  He isn't comfortable discussing it on the Pharo lists himself.


My goal is to use it for a real-life business application rather than the ST2JS, which would be the second alternative. All of my server software is written in Smalltalk anyway.

Thank you in advance for any comment.

Frank
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Re: Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

henry
Nice.

- HH


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?
Local Time: August 13, 2017 10:48 PM
UTC Time: August 14, 2017 2:48 AM
To: Frank Berger Software <[hidden email]>, Pharo Development List <[hidden email]>

Hi Frank,

On Aug 12, 2017, at 1:24 PM, Frank Berger Software <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello,

the available documentation on Orca looks brilliant and the source, Hasso-Plattner-Institut in Potsdam, has an excellent reputation. It looks all very professional.

I am therefore most suprised that I cannot find any tracks of usage of Orca, neither here, nor elsewhere on the net, and not even any serious discussions.

Does anybody here have practical experience with Orca?
Critics?
Recommendations?

Craig Latta has done some strong work integrating Squeak and Pharo with the browser using a bridge derived from Bert Freudenberg's SqueakJS. Craig's work allows one to use Pharo running on the standard Cog VM, client side, to render to the browser, receive events from the browser, and manipulate the DOM. 

You could contact him to find out if his work is relevant to you.  He isn't comfortable discussing it on the Pharo lists himself.


My goal is to use it for a real-life business application rather than the ST2JS, which would be the second alternative. All of my server software is written in Smalltalk anyway.

Thank you in advance for any comment.

Frank
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Re: Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

Craig Latta
In reply to this post by Eliot Miranda-2

Hi--

     Eliot writes to Frank:

> Craig Latta has done some strong work integrating Squeak and Pharo
> with the browser using a bridge derived from Bert Freudenberg's
> SqueakJS. Craig's work allows one to use Pharo running on the
> standard Cog VM, client side, to render to the browser, receive
> events from the browser, and manipulate the DOM.
>
> You could contact him to find out if his work is relevant to you.  He
> isn't comfortable discussing it on the Pharo lists himself.

     Oh, I'm plenty comfortable discussing it on the Pharo lists. :)  I
was referring to different context in which someone asked me a question
here, and I got attacked for responding to it.

     Anyway, yes: livecoded Pharo in web browsers is working.


     thanks!

-C

--
Craig Latta
Black Page Digital
Amsterdam :: San Francisco
[hidden email]
voice through 2017-09-12:
+ 1 510 833 5799 (SMS ok)
+31  20 893 2796 (no SMS)


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Re: Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

henry
Nice.

- HH


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?
Local Time: August 14, 2017 2:09 AM
UTC Time: August 14, 2017 6:09 AM
To: Pharo Development List <[hidden email]>


Hi--

Eliot writes to Frank:

> Craig Latta has done some strong work integrating Squeak and Pharo
> with the browser using a bridge derived from Bert Freudenberg"s
> SqueakJS. Craig"s work allows one to use Pharo running on the
> standard Cog VM, client side, to render to the browser, receive
> events from the browser, and manipulate the DOM.
>
> You could contact him to find out if his work is relevant to you. He
> isn"t comfortable discussing it on the Pharo lists himself.

Oh, I"m plenty comfortable discussing it on the Pharo lists. :) I
was referring to different context in which someone asked me a question
here, and I got attacked for responding to it.

Anyway, yes: livecoded Pharo in web browsers is working.


thanks!

-C

--
Craig Latta
Black Page Digital
Amsterdam :: San Francisco
voice through 2017-09-12:
+ 1 510 833 5799 (SMS ok)
+31 20 893 2796 (no SMS)

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Re: Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

Frank-B
In reply to this post by Craig Latta
Hello Craig,

upfront thank you very much for being willing to respond to my problems and questions.

As I tried to make clear in this and the neighboring thread: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-td4960686.html
I am looking for a serious "professional" solution to combine server-side Smalltalk with client-side JavaScript, which is sourced in the same Smalltalk image that runs the server. This is an essntial part of all of my product plans and ideas. I am only in software for mass-markets (Fremium principle) and not in customer-centric projects like most Smalltalkers.

Another important background: My quite large Smalltalk famework contains the greatest parts of the data that defines the UI and, second, I have very specific plans for the UI in the long run, because the UI decides mostly about the success or failure of an application software.

There are currently three "candidates": ST2JS, Orca and PharoJS.

As you can read in the second thread (see link above) the PharoJS image failed at first attempt. Therefore my question, are you aware of a working image?

Second, is there anywhere some detailed information available about what PharoJS does and, at least basically, how it's done? (Side-remark: This part is excellent for Orca, I recommend the Orca papers. Brilliant concepts!)

Third, are you aware of real-life solutions based on PharoJS?

I am currently still at the very beginning of my investigations and my very first impression of PharoJS was the worst possible: The trial image failed at first attempt and, even worse, neither general documentation nor code/class comments were available. Both are a no-go for me, being a "documentation fanatic" out of very long experience in software development.

Thank you in advance for a short comment.

Frank
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Re: Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

henry
Nice.

- HH


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?
Local Time: August 14, 2017 2:38 AM
UTC Time: August 14, 2017 6:38 AM

Hello Craig,

upfront thank you very much for being willing to respond to my problems and
questions.

As I tried to make clear in this and the neighboring thread:
http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-td4960686.html
I am looking for a serious "professional" solution to combine server-side
Smalltalk with client-side JavaScript, which is sourced in the same
Smalltalk image that runs the server. This is an essntial part of all of my
product plans and ideas. I am only in software for mass-markets (Fremium
principle) and not in customer-centric projects like most Smalltalkers.

Another important background: My quite large Smalltalk famework contains the
greatest parts of the data that defines the UI and, second, I have very
specific plans for the UI in the long run, because the UI decides mostly
about the success or failure of an application software.

There are currently three "candidates": ST2JS, Orca and PharoJS.

As you can read in the second thread (see link above) the PharoJS image
failed at first attempt. Therefore my question, are you aware of a working
image?

Second, is there anywhere some detailed information available about what
PharoJS does and, at least basically, how it"s done? (Side-remark: This part
is excellent for Orca, I recommend the Orca papers. Brilliant concepts!)

Third, are you aware of real-life solutions based on PharoJS?

I am currently still at the very beginning of my investigations and my very
first impression of PharoJS was the worst possible: The trial image failed
at first attempt and, even worse, neither general documentation nor
code/class comments were available. Both are a no-go for me, being a
"documentation fanatic" out of very long experience in software development.

Thank you in advance for a short comment.

Frank




--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p4960895.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

Tudor Girba-2
In reply to this post by Frank-B
Hi Frank,

Craig is not working on PharoJS. He works on another project derived from SqueakJS (a project that offers a VM running inside the browser) that also has integration for Pharo.

Cheers,
Doru


> On Aug 14, 2017, at 8:38 AM, Frank-B <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello Craig,
>
> upfront thank you very much for being willing to respond to my problems and
> questions.
>
> As I tried to make clear in this and the neighboring thread:
> http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-td4960686.html
> I am looking for a serious "professional" solution to combine server-side
> Smalltalk with client-side JavaScript, which is sourced in the same
> Smalltalk image that runs the server. This is an essntial part of all of my
> product plans and ideas. I am only in software for mass-markets (Fremium
> principle) and not in customer-centric projects like most Smalltalkers.
>
> Another important background: My quite large Smalltalk famework contains the
> greatest parts of the data that defines the UI and, second, I have very
> specific plans for the UI in the long run, because the UI decides mostly
> about the success or failure of an application software.
>
> There are currently three "candidates": ST2JS, Orca and PharoJS.
>
> As you can read in the second thread (see link above) the PharoJS image
> failed at first attempt. Therefore my question, are you aware of a working
> image?
>
> Second, is there anywhere some detailed information available about what
> PharoJS does and, at least basically, how it's done? (Side-remark: This part
> is excellent for Orca, I recommend the Orca papers. Brilliant concepts!)
>
> Third, are you aware of real-life solutions based on PharoJS?
>
> I am currently still at the very beginning of my investigations and my very
> first impression of PharoJS was the worst possible: The trial image failed
> at first attempt and, even worse, neither general documentation nor
> code/class comments were available. Both are a no-go for me, being a
> "documentation fanatic" out of very long experience in software development.
>
> Thank you in advance for a short comment.
>
> Frank
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p4960895.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>

--
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"Be rather willing to give than demanding to get."





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@ H. Hirzel asking for the Orca docs

Frank-B
Hello Hannes,

for some reason your post does not show up here on the forum (and I hate mailing lists):

Hello Frank
 
A question: you wrote earlier about an 'excellent' Orca documentation?
Where did you find it?
 
   http://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/projects/orca/index.html
   has a demo video and installation instructions for server (Squeak)
and client (JavaScript)
 
   Or is it this paper [1] you are referring to?
 
Regards
Hannes
I did not save the links, because in these days of censoring I always donwload content of interest. But here are the full titles of the primary two documents, they should be easy to find:

Lauritz Thamsen und mehrere andere
Orca: A single-language web framework for collaborative Development
2012 International conference on Creating, Connecting and Collaboration through computing

Lauritz Thamsen
Object collaboration in the Orca web framework.

I am currently working on an (internal) paper comparing the various systems. In case you are interested in an bilateral phone discussion and opinion exchange, your are most welcome. Please just drop me a line.

Frank

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