Asking again

So, are there any reason the download link at the top right should not
point to the squeak-dev regularly-updated and useful-for-developer image?

After all, if we want the Squeak community to grow with developer, we
also want to make Squeak more appealing for developer, don't you?
Or are  there any reason to not do so?

And for educative use, people should just be pointed to SqueakLand, right?


Hilaire

On Jul 10, 2007, at 16:20 , Hilaire Fernandes wrote:

What's the point of having a Squeak release then?

- Bert -

On 10-Jul-07, at 7:20 AM, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:

> So, are there any reason the download link at the top right should  
> not point to the squeak-dev regularly-updated and useful-for-
> developer image?
Yes. It's not the only sensible download.

What we could probably benefit from would be an expanded downloads  
page that explains things a bit more clearly and drop the instant-
download links for windows/mac in the topright sidebar.

tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
Useful random insult:- Gates are down, the lights are flashing, but  
the train isn't coming.

tim Rowledge a écrit :
>
> On 10-Jul-07, at 7:20 AM, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
>
>> So, are there any reason the download link at the top right should not
>> point to the squeak-dev regularly-updated and useful-for-developer image?
> Yes. It's not the only sensible download.

Nice, this is an acknowledge squeak-dev is a sensible download deserving
a more visible place.
Which are those sensible download. I am ashamed I stopped downloading
anything from squeak.org once the WM is installed and the squeak-dev
images show up, those last one are too handy.

>
> What we could probably benefit from would be an expanded downloads page
> that explains things a bit more clearly and drop the instant-download
> links for windows/mac in the topright sidebar.

That would be great.

Hilaire

On 7/10/07, tim Rowledge <[hidden email]> wrote:
(CC'ing the webteam)

This sounds like a better idea to me.

--
Jason Rogers

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live;
yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life
which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of
the Son of God, who loved me, and gave
himself for me."
    Galatians 2:20

Bert Freudenberg a écrit :
I don't see the point. Having a more user centric vision does not break
the release process, does it?

Hilaire

On Jul 10, 2007, at 19:31 , Hilaire Fernandes wrote:

Well, you implied that everyone except the people interested in  
education should use the dev image because it is "regularly-updated  
and useful-for-developer". That sounds like nobody is interested in  
the official Squeak release. And watching Edgar struggle all alone  
with 3.10 you may even be right. Hence my question - what's the point  
of having a release nobody wants? Why not make the release be as cool  
and inviting and useful as possible?

- Bert -

Hi,

Having a link to squeak-dev on the main squeak.org would be very nice. I
never understood why spoon access is so direct and not the DevImage
projects. I'd like there'd be some mirror sites too: the free.fr is not
fast enough. I'm finishing my web sites using squeak and I'll be glad to
have a http/ftp mirror of the damien's images.

Regards,

--
Martial

On Tue, 2007-07-10 at 19:31 +0200, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:

El 7/10/07 3:28 PM, "Bert Freudenberg" <[hidden email]> escribió:

>  And watching Edgar struggle all alone
> with 3.10 you may even be right. Hence my question - what's the point
> of having a release nobody wants? Why not make the release be as cool
> and inviting and useful as possible?
>
> - Bert -
>
About all Hilaire said, I wandering if he like Pavel work and one of 3.10
goals , try to get closer to MinimalMorphic.

You can't have a smaller image and all the dev tools, but one reliable
release letting you go dev or go fun as my "FunSqueak3.10"

Now Avi is working again in Monticello, so I very confident problems end
soon.

And when Adrian returns and I could delete wrong files I close to happy guy.

Very thanks all you advice in 3.10, Bert !

Edgar

Bert Freudenberg a écrit :

>> I don't see the point. Having a more user centric vision does not
>> break the release process, does it?
>
> Well, you implied that everyone except the people interested in
> education should use the dev image because it is "regularly-updated and
> useful-for-developer". That sounds like nobody is interested in the
> official Squeak release. And watching Edgar struggle all alone with 3.10

Absolutely not. At least it is not what I think.
The release process target is to provide us a stable base image, as a
base for more user friendly image as squeak-dev for example. These is
not about competing but completing. And I guess next squeak-dev will
just be again squeak3.10 + more stuff to be user friendly. Again not
competing but completing.

> you may even be right. Hence my question - what's the point of having a
> release nobody wants? Why not make the release be as cool and inviting

I think nobody say that, and it is not my thought.

Hilaire

Edgar J. De Cleene a écrit :

> About all Hilaire said, I wandering if he like Pavel work and one of 3.10
> goals , try to get closer to MinimalMorphic.

Not only I like it but I experiment it with DrGeoII which use quite a
lot Morphic and it works pretty well (see screenshot).
I also try with SqueakLight, just a few methods were missing from
PasteUpMorph.

Hilaire

On Jul 10, 2007, at 21:55 , Edgar J. De Cleene wrote:


Well my personal opinion is that a release should come in several  
flavors, from a minimal image to a kitchen-sink one including etoys/
media tools as well as smalltalk dev tools. And, again in my opinion,  
only the latter deserves the label "Squeak", the smaller would be  
"Squeak-Core".

That would of course require having more than a single person working  
on it.

- Bert -

Bert Freudenberg a écrit :

> Well, you implied that everyone except the people interested in
> education should use the dev image because it is "regularly-updated and

Not exactly. What my words implied is that the average user (80%) will
want that kind of more friendly image.

> useful-for-developer". That sounds like nobody is interested in the
> official Squeak release. And watching Edgar struggle all alone with 3.10

Indeed, probably only 10% are interested by the official squeak release
and contributing to it. This is why it is important to help the
community to grow, and a more user friendly image can be helpful for
that. It does not mean the official Squeak release is not friendly, but
there are place for improvement and hopefully it is done in squeak-dev,
and obviously we should take advantage of that.

It is only the rule of statistic and it has nothing to do with the
importance or value, for sure the official squeak release image in its
own is more important than any other derivative as squeak-dev, but the
average user will prefer that last one.

Hilaire

El 7/10/07 5:39 PM, "Hilaire Fernandes" <[hidden email]> escribió:

> I also try with SqueakLight, just a few methods were missing from
> PasteUpMorph.

Say any problem and I fix.
I very like DrGeoII, but I don't play much with it for discover missing
methods.

Edgar

Il giorno mar, 10/07/2007 alle 22.40 +0200, Bert Freudenberg ha scritto:
+10000 on having more than a single person working on it.

        Giovanni

Giovanni Corriga a écrit :

>> That would of course require having more than a single person working  
>> on it.
>
> +10000 on having more than a single person working on it.

community growth -> attract more developer -> make Squeak/Smalltalk more
appealing and sexy

It is not easy but this is the only working rule I know in the free
software communities way of life :)

Hilaire

On 10 juil. 07, at 22:40, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

Working on which one?
I think that damien effort is really valuable.
As for 3.10 I proposed to ralph to help but he prefered to work with  
a new team.
So I'm still waiting for regular announce of changes made/harvested.  
I think
that the communication of 3.10 is terrible. So I do not expect people  
to join
with this kind of atmosphere even if I wish it a success. This is  
also for that
that at esug we will try to build a team for 3.11/4.0

Stef

squeak-dev is absolutely not a competitor to 3.10, they are team-mates.

As we make the core squeak smaller, it becomes more important to have
standard packages that build upon it.  squeak-dev and squeak-web are
the only ones so far.  Damien is the one responsible for that.  We
ought to have more; perhaps squeak-cool, squeak-edu, squeak-etoys.
Package Universe is a good way to define and publish these packages.
If you want to make a squeak-cool, go ahead!

In the next release of 3.10, we will make sure that there are clear
instructions for loading squeak-dev.

-Ralph

Ralph Johnson a écrit :
> squeak-dev is absolutely not a competitor to 3.10, they are team-mates.

Sure, nobody claims that.
>
> As we make the core squeak smaller, it becomes more important to have
> standard packages that build upon it.  squeak-dev and squeak-web are
> the only ones so far.  Damien is the one responsible for that.  We
> ought to have more; perhaps squeak-cool, squeak-edu, squeak-etoys.
> Package Universe is a good way to define and publish these packages.
> If you want to make a squeak-cool, go ahead!

Hum, the pragmatical way will be at first to make more visible the
cool-squeak-already-done things as squeak-dev.

> In the next release of 3.10, we will make sure that there are clear
> instructions for loading squeak-dev.

Very interesting discution :-).

The squeak-dev image is built on top of the latest releases of Squeak
(3.9 and 3.10). The release team must continue its work. Moreover,
squeak-dev images do NOT correct any bug. squeak-dev is only a
distribution of the squeak core with packages for developers.

--
Damien Cassou