BookMorph prompt

BookMorph still has a hardcoded link to a server called 'DaniOnJumbo' which does not work. (This occurs in Squeak and in EToys).  I did hear someone say that preference is to use projects (from Navigator tab) in place of BookMorph - is this correct?  Even if projects are preferred, given that BookMorph appears as a primary item in the Supplies, it really should work properly. I suggest a fix to provide a default local file and/or prompt the user.

We need to clean BookMorph.... a lot :)

Stef
On 2 avr. 06, at 03:44, Robert Hawley wrote:

> BookMorph still has a hardcoded link to a server called  
> 'DaniOnJumbo' which does not work. (This occurs in Squeak and in  
> EToys).  I did hear someone say that preference is to use projects  
> (from Navigator tab) in place of BookMorph - is this correct?  Even  
> if projects are preferred, given that BookMorph appears as a  
> primary item in the Supplies, it really should work properly. I  
> suggest a fix to provide a default local file and/or prompt the user.
>
>

On 02.04.2006, at 14:03, stéphane ducasse wrote:

> We need to clean BookMorph.... a lot :)
>
Uhmm... who needs BookMorph when there is Sophie?

      Marcus

For many people, their first view of Squeak will be via the Morphic/EToys route, so there is every reason to make sure that the visual stuff they see works properly and tidily.  We do need BookMorph to work properly if it is to remain there.

Yours

Bob



On 02.04.2006, at 14:03, stéphane ducasse wrote:

> We need to clean BookMorph.... a lot :)
>
Uhmm... who needs BookMorph when there is Sophie?

      Marcus


-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Hawley
Sent: Sun 02/04/2006 2:44 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: BookMorph prompt
 
BookMorph still has a hardcoded link to a server called 'DaniOnJumbo' which does not work. (This occurs in Squeak and in EToys).  I did hear someone say that preference is to use projects (from Navigator tab) in place of BookMorph - is this correct?  Even if projects are preferred, given that BookMorph appears as a primary item in the Supplies, it really should work properly. I suggest a fix to provide a default local file and/or prompt the user.

Marcus Denker wrote:
>
> On 02.04.2006, at 14:03, stéphane ducasse wrote:
>
>> We need to clean BookMorph.... a lot :)
>>
> Uhmm... who needs BookMorph when there is Sophie?
>
>      Marcus
>

So, *when* will there be Sophie?

ChrisP

Well the Sophie team has beginning of summer delivery date. Likely  
we'll need to push things out for wider review at some point before  
then.

On 2-Apr-06, at 6:07 AM, Chris Patrick Schreiner wrote:

--
========================================================================
===
John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]> 1-800-477-2659
Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
========================================================================
===

Is Sophie a candidate to replace the role of BookMorph within the
Morphic environment?

I've not seen any contextual mention of Morphic when I've looked
for info about Sophie, so is it meaningful to suggest that Sophie
will fit in there?  Or if it is meaningful, is there any analysis about
the what, the when, the who and the how?

In the meantime the Morphic/EToys end of things needs to be kept
tidy, as was the original point this topic title.

(The bug is not a thing I could easilty fix, so I have to ask.)

Yours

Bob
-----------------------

John M McIntosh wrote:
Well the Sophie team has beginning of summer delivery date. Likely  
we'll need to push things out for wider review at some point before  
then.

On 2-Apr-06, at 6:07 AM, Chris Patrick Schreiner wrote:

--

Hi Robert,

My answer with Sophie was more meant as a reply to Stef's
"we need to rewrite BookMorph", not your original Mail...

>
> Is Sophie a candidate to replace the role of BookMorph within the
> Morphic environment?
>

No, Sophie replaces Morphic (it's build on top of Tweak, but afaic
it re-implements all the widgets... which is supposed to be quite
nice stuff..).

> I've not seen any contextual mention of Morphic when I've looked
> for info about Sophie, so is it meaningful to suggest that Sophie
> will fit in there?  Or if it is meaningful, is there any analysis  
> about
> the what, the when, the who and the how?
>
> In the meantime the Morphic/EToys end of things needs to be kept
> tidy, as was the original point this topic title.
>

I can't help it, but reading "tidy" in the context of Morphic...  
"semantic
mismatch" ;-) Tidy it is not.

But you are right that, as long as Morphic is what we use, we should
try to fix everything we can.

For 3.9, we have lookend into fixing bugs, and we improved performanc
of Morphic a lot (> factor 1.6). Even the Sophie hackers are using  
Morphic
for development, and making opening a browser faster by 0.5 seconds
does add up over the years ;-)

> (The bug is not a thing I could easilty fix, so I have to ask.)

This was about an old server entry? Should be simple to fix.
Did you add a bug report to the bugtracker?

      Marcus

Robert Hawley skrev:
> BookMorph still has a hardcoded link to a server called 'DaniOnJumbo' which does not work. (This occurs in Squeak and in EToys).  I did hear someone say that preference is to use projects (from Navigator tab) in place of BookMorph - is this correct?  Even if projects are preferred, given that BookMorph appears as a primary item in the Supplies, it really should work properly. I suggest a fix to provide a default local file and/or prompt the user.
>
>
>
>  
BookMorphs had a historical service called SqueakServerPages. I don't
know much about them
and I guess very few does. The menu items you refer to is part of that
service and hence
it is all in a obscure light. As you mention yourself, projects replaced
SSP and is the the much
preferred way to publish morphs/etoys on the net.
Sophie is based on Tweak wich is a rewrite of Morphic and will maybe
replace BookMorph in the long future
but in the short future we should maybe just rip out the stuff from
BookMorph that confuse people and
point to projects.

Karl

On 3 avr. 06, at 21:26, Marcus Denker wrote:

> No, Sophie replaces Morphic (it's build on top of Tweak, but afaic
> it re-implements all the widgets... which is supposed to be quite
> nice stuff..).

you mean all the tweak widgets or morphic ones?

Stef

On 3-Apr-06, at 12:26 PM, Marcus Denker wrote:


Well Sophie is an electronic book authoring/reader system, it's to  
replace Powerpoint,  Word and most of MS office.
(Sorry no spreadsheets, but if someone wants to add that?).

Since it's built on top of Tweak & Squeak and completely open-source  
you can choose to add features as you wish.




--
========================================================================
===
John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]> 1-800-477-2659
Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
========================================================================
===

Hi All,

I saw a demo of Sophie at C5 and was well impressed. It just felt like document design/creation done right.

Cheers,
Darius

Hi All,

I saw a demo of Sophie at C5 and was well impressed.
It just felt like document design/creation done right.

Cheers,
Darius

Thanks - I have now discoverd how to submit a bug report!

I don't fully understand the implications of the discussion about Sophie.
Are Tweak and Sophie intended to be fully integrated in to Squeak releases,
or will they be treated as add-ons? Will Morphic Supplies look the same, or
will they have to change?

Yours

Bob
----------------------
Marcus wrote:


This was about an old server entry? Should be simple to fix.
Did you add a bug report to the bugtracker?

      Marcus

Good question.
if you ask me my wish:
        I would love to see tweak flying and replacing Morphic
        Now we will see.
Stef

On 5 avr. 06, at 02:09, Robert Hawley wrote:

John M McIntosh wrote on Mon, 3 Apr 2006 16:49:40 -0700
> Well Sophie is an electronic book authoring/reader system, it's to  
> replace Powerpoint,  Word and most of MS office.
> (Sorry no spreadsheets, but if someone wants to add that?).
>
> Since it's built on top of Tweak & Squeak and completely open-source  
> you can choose to add features as you wish.

While Excel has been fabulously successful, that is not the way I would
go for a Tweak/Squeak/Sophie spreadsheet. Instead my first priority
would be to have the best table layout possible since more people seem
to use Excel for that than for actual calculations (not counting simple
sorting of tables). And having several smaller tables floating around in
a larger document seems nicer to me than a single huge 2D (almost 3D
with tabbed "pages") array, though I can understand how such a
structured space can make some people feel more secure (probably more
veteran users than newbies).

For the second step it would be interesting to look at The Analyst for
inspiration and allow arbitrary Smalltalk objects and expressions
instead of just numbers and strings.

Third: I would separate the expressions from the actual cells in the
style of Lotus Improv. This would encourage the users to think in terms
of collections of data like in APL or FScript instead of individual
numbers. It would also make doing things across more than one table less
awkward. The user interface could still present things in terms of per
cell equations when that is more convenient.

Lastly, having such a component I would use it in Sophie for things like
timelines instead of hand coding stuff in Tweak.

-- Jecel

On 4/5/06, Jecel Assumpcao Jr <[hidden email]> wrote:

> While Excel has been fabulously successful, that is not the way I would
> go for a Tweak/Squeak/Sophie spreadsheet.

+1

> Instead my first priority
> would be to have the best table layout possible since more people seem
> to use Excel for that than for actual calculations (not counting simple
> sorting of tables). And having several smaller tables floating around in
> a larger document seems nicer to me than a single huge 2D (almost 3D
> with tabbed "pages") array,...

+1

> For the second step it would be interesting to look at The Analyst for
> inspiration and allow arbitrary Smalltalk objects and expressions
> instead of just numbers and strings.

+1

>
> Third: I would separate the expressions from the actual cells in the
> style of Lotus Improv. This would encourage the users to think in terms
> of collections of data like in APL or FScript instead of individual
> numbers. It would also make doing things across more than one table less
> awkward.

+1

>The user interface could still present things in terms of per
> cell equations when that is more convenient.

-1
Can't imagine when such would be more convenient, if one allows for a
view where the formula-cell is temporally, visually juxtaposed or
interleaved with the value-cells.

I'd also allow for nesting table layouts so it can represent web pages
and other formats.

I'd also allow for any cell to function as a stack, like a
cell-by-cell undo rather than a whole sheet undo. The stack might also
have a date/time attribute for popping the stacked cell or a range of
stacked cells back to a certain time or a certain value. Allow the
data in a cell to have an expiry date, review for deletion date (by
self and/or others), and/or archive off to persistent storage and then
delete date.

Rather than separate sheets with tabs like a document with separate
pages, one might consider it just one very, very long spreadsheet
(that can be folded for various views). This matches the linear
thinking (and narrative thinking) that most humans stick with. If you
search for something, it's always either above where you're at or
below. Skip document searches vs. sheet searches vs. page searches vs.
row searches vs. column searches, vs. formula searches, vs. ... etc.
Any range and any scope can be give a label for assist in simple
search syntax.

Allow a range of rows & columns to be collapsed like an outline in
certain views.
Allow the toggling of the appearance of a selection of conjoined cells
between a horizontal view, vertical view, and nested view.

Rather than "e-mail" the sheet or document ... mark a cell or range of
cells to be directly shared real time, copy duplicated, or subscribed
and the destination user, computer, and/or universally addressed
"Squeaksheet" peer. This way it doubles as a communication method in
context with the associated data, preserving format, programming code,
and imbedded multi-media across domains, yet more finely grained than
e-mail. Other attributes could include permission allowing other
users' changes to be replicate back, or if shared with a range of peer
and how communities can interact with that cell or range of cells, and
to preserve a copy of the cell's content if the original linked source
disappears.

Allow cells to be categorized and another way to identify them.

Try to reduce the number of top-level columns to stay within the 7+/-2
suggested short-term memory range.

Allow cells to be directly used for the visual grids in line graphs
and bar graphs.

Parse Smalltalk code (formulas) into nested grid tiles as eToys does
(and class definitions too).

Allow nested cell ranges to be used as inspectors of class instances.

[and so on... :) ]

Cheers,
Darius

By categorizing, I mean tagging. Tag names appear in cells in the
"Tags" section that can be shared in the same way other cells can.

Oh, and button bars, menus, ribbons, command lines, and other
representations of actions to perform on cells would be visually,
temporarily inserted just above/below the selected target cells' rows
rather than overlaying and obscuring content or taking up screen real
estate if inapplicable to the current target cells worked on or their
properties at the edges of the screen. These would be cells
expandable, collapsible, filterable, and sortable just as other cells.

Allow a range of cells to be continuously represented as an XML or RSS
document in the host's file system so other systems can read the data
w/o Squeaksheet explicitly "exporting" the data into a document.

Allow a cell to have a "class" so one knows what actions can and
cannot be performed on it (or in other words, actions the cell
understands).

Cheers,
Darius

The "range of cells to be continuously represented as an XML or RSS
document in the host's file system" may also be given time limits or
time ranges when the represented document is available to/through the
file system. Push model rather than a Pull model of communication if
desired.

Hi Folks --

There's some interesting long ago history wrt Smalltalk and spreadsheets. The first 100 personal computers sold by Xerox (ca. early 80s) were to the CIA and they contained what still may be the most comprehensive extension of the spreadsheet idea (written in Smalltalk of course):

From the web:
A proprietary Smalltalk system called "The Analyst" built for the intelligence community then leveraged Smalltalk to an incredible degree to form an integrated information handling suite far beyond Office.
http://wiki.cs.uiuc.edu/VisualWorks/The+Analyst
http://www.mojowire.com/TravelsWithSmalltalk/DaveThomas-TravelsWithSmalltalk.htm
"Why would Xerox develop an incredible spreadsheet that could display images, conjugate Russian verbs and why did that happen in a strange group called XSIS located in Los Angeles and Washington? Apparently they had an important customer with a lot of complex information to analyze. How did Angela Coppola know that 1000 people would show up for OOPSLA'86 when the PC committee predicted 100-200? What sort of technology could the National Security Administration use to print Chinese leaflets circa 1978? The Xerox Analyst served the CIA as a analytic tool for many years. Even 13 years later it still offers tools more powerful than MSOffice. The Analyst is still alive and well and forms a key component in TI ControlWorks Wafer Fab Automation System."

Cheers,

Alan

At 11:06 AM 4/5/2006, Jecel Assumpcao Jr wrote:

John M McIntosh wrote on Mon, 3 Apr 2006 16:49:40 -0700
> Well Sophie is an electronic book authoring/reader system, it's to 
> replace Powerpoint,  Word and most of MS office.
> (Sorry no spreadsheets, but if someone wants to add that?).
>
> Since it's built on top of Tweak & Squeak and completely open-source 
> you can choose to add features as you wish.

While Excel has been fabulously successful, that is not the way I would
go for a Tweak/Squeak/Sophie spreadsheet. Instead my first priority
would be to have the best table layout possible since more people seem
to use Excel for that than for actual calculations (not counting simple
sorting of tables). And having several smaller tables floating around in
a larger document seems nicer to me than a single huge 2D (almost 3D
with tabbed "pages") array, though I can understand how such a
structured space can make some people feel more secure (probably more
veteran users than newbies).

For the second step it would be interesting to look at The Analyst for
inspiration and allow arbitrary Smalltalk objects and expressions
instead of just numbers and strings.

Third: I would separate the expressions from the actual cells in the
style of Lotus Improv. This would encourage the users to think in terms
of collections of data like in APL or FScript instead of individual
numbers. It would also make doing things across more than one table less
awkward. The user interface could still present things in terms of per
cell equations when that is more convenient.

Lastly, having such a component I would use it in Sophie for things like
timelines instead of hand coding stuff in Tweak.

-- Jecel