Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks
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Re: [vwnc] [Seaside] Re: Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks
 
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Come on… We all know Janko is biased, and the comparison reflects that. But it is not like he wants to take over the world and kill Seaside. Well… maybe he wants, but there is still no reason to get upset. :-)
I have only tried Seaside, choosing that framework since it is the “default” one to use for Smalltalk web development. At least the comparison made me aware of Iliad, and had me rediscover Aida. But even if I now have more knowledge, I am more confused than ever.
We need some small reports, from various sources, comparing the strengths and weaknesses of the frameworks. Creating a collaborative to-do-list application might be a good reference case.
From what I understand, all three frameworks generate HTML using roughly the same techniques. But there are differences in how you compose a page from multiple components. The spreadsheet mentions “composition” vs. “rendering”. Getting a short discussion about these concepts is probably more helpful than a lot of (smaller) features compared.
It seems like everyone agrees on the importance of JavaScript. So explaining how the various frameworks handle this and how they will tackle it in the future, is important. It seems like Aida and Seaside takes different routes here. How does that matter for me as a user? Again, a more detailed discussion than “yes” / ”no” on a feature list, would be welcome.
It is also interesting to see how this thread discusses the future of Smalltalk web frameworks. As I understand this, we have Aida, Iliad and Seaside being the “server-centric” web frameworks. These frameworks generate the UI on the server, and use third-party JavaScript libraries to provide a richer UI experience at the client. Then we have Quicksilver and Jtalk which basically let you run your UI (Smalltalk) code in the client browser itself. These “client-centric” frameworks are experimental and not ready for production. As Janko mentions, integration between these two types of frameworks will be important. Kind regards Runar Jordahl _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
RE: [vwnc] [Seaside] Re: Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliadweb frameworks
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http://bitquabit.com/post/make-love-not-flamewars/ -Boris From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Runar Jordahl Come on… We all know Janko is biased, and the comparison reflects that. But it is not like he wants to take over the world and kill Seaside. Well… maybe he wants, but there is still no reason to get upset. :-) I have only tried Seaside, choosing that framework since it is the “default” one to use for Smalltalk web development. At least the comparison made me aware of Iliad, and had me rediscover Aida. But even if I now have more knowledge, I am more confused than ever. We need some small reports, from various sources, comparing the strengths and weaknesses of the frameworks. Creating a collaborative to-do-list application might be a good reference case. From what I understand, all three frameworks generate HTML using roughly the same techniques. But there are differences in how you compose a page from multiple components. The spreadsheet mentions “composition” vs. “rendering”. Getting a short discussion about these concepts is probably more helpful than a lot of (smaller) features compared. It seems like everyone agrees on the importance of JavaScript. So explaining how the various frameworks handle this and how they will tackle it in the future, is important. It seems like Aida and Seaside takes different routes here. How does that matter for me as a user? Again, a more detailed discussion than “yes” / ”no” on a feature list, would be welcome. It is also interesting to see how this thread discusses the future of Smalltalk web frameworks. As I understand this, we have Aida, Iliad and Seaside being the “server-centric” web frameworks. These frameworks generate the UI on the server, and use third-party JavaScript libraries to provide a richer UI experience at the client. Then we have Quicksilver and Jtalk which basically let you run your UI (Smalltalk) code in the client browser itself. These “client-centric” frameworks are experimental and not ready for production. As Janko mentions, integration between these two types of frameworks will be important. Kind regards Runar Jordahl _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks
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In reply to this post by Runar Jordahl
S, Runar Jordahl piše:
> Come on… We all know Janko is biased, and the comparison reflects that. > But it is not like he wants to take over the world and kill Seaside. > Well… maybe he wants, but there is still no reason to get upset. :-) I'm biased by definition and I don't hide that :) See disclaimer right in the header of comparison. But let me explain my rationale: I started this comparison to assess the strengths and weaknesses of Aida comparing to other two. And I need to know Seaside and Iliad for competitive reasons which is a strong motivator for learning other frameworks. End result is also that I can actually compare them very well. But from my own perspective of course. Which I stated upfront 100 times already: This comparison is Aida centric! At the end all community have something out of that comparison even if it is biased. Better than nothing, I like to add :) And I invited you to balance it. > I have only tried Seaside, choosing that framework since it is the > “default” one to use for Smalltalk web development. At least the > comparison made me aware of Iliad, and had me rediscover Aida. But even > if I now have more knowledge, I am more confused than ever. > > We need some small reports, from various sources, comparing the > strengths and weaknesses of the frameworks. Creating a collaborative > to-do-list application might be a good reference case. Agreed, someone from a distance should look at all three and study matarials like this comparison and forthcoming examples. I expect someone from academic world to step up ... ;) About ToDo example, Hannes prepared nice requirements at http://www.edupad.ch/tB6G15hqCx and I'm near done it in Aida. Expect in a day or two the announcement. A live multiuser ToDo for you to look at together with published code. > From what I understand, all three frameworks generate HTML using roughly > the same techniques. But there are differences in how you compose a page > from multiple components. The spreadsheet mentions “composition” vs. > “rendering”. Getting a short discussion about these concepts is probably > more helpful than a lot of (smaller) features compared. Good idea. Let we start about HTML generation in a separate thread. > It seems like everyone agrees on the importance of JavaScript. So > explaining how the various frameworks handle this and how they will > tackle it in the future, is important. It seems like Aida and Seaside > takes different routes here. How does that matter for me as a user? > Again, a more detailed discussion than “yes” / ”no” on a feature list, > would be welcome. Discussing here the certain feature is probalby he best way to achive better explanation of each feature or group of features. Let we start with above one for now. > It is also interesting to see how this thread discusses the future of > Smalltalk web frameworks. As I understand this, we have Aida, Iliad and > Seaside being the “server-centric” web frameworks. These frameworks > generate the UI on the server, and use third-party JavaScript libraries > to provide a richer UI experience at the client. Then we have > Quicksilver and Jtalk which basically let you run your UI (Smalltalk) > code in the client browser itself. These “client-centric” frameworks are > experimental and not ready for production. As Janko mentions, > integration between these two types of frameworks will be important. Exactly. Jtalk is currently in full and very hot development, with a goal to be included in Iliad soon. And in Aida too, I have great plans with it. Not only on client-side: with Jtalk we can conect to wast amount of node.js modules on server-side! Best regards Janko > Kind regards > Runar Jordahl > blog.epigent.com <http://blog.epigent.com> -- Janko Mivšek Aida/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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