Croquet

I have downloaded and installed version 8.  I now can see the darned
rabbit, but only as it flashes.
Here is what I have done:
I am funning Fedora Core 6 uptodate, and have installed OpenGL and
OpenGLU.
I added a group called Croquet and set the group for all the software to
that group.  
I chmod'ed the /opt/croquet..../bin directory contents to +x.
I added write priveleges for the group on all files in the Croquet
directory.
Then I edited the Croquet.sh file to background it so that closing
croquet wouldn't close the terminal window.
I updating the repository data now.

A couple of points...
A system should not normally be run as root in Linux (or any other OS
for that matter), so the correct permissions need to be determined and
setup in the archive so when it is expanded it will operate correctly
with the operator's normal home account.  I chose to implement this as a
group, so the many operators could use the Croquet system.  However the
correct answer will be a bit more complex, in order to prevent a user
from inadvertantly editing or modifying the defaults globally, Thus each
user will need a .Croquet directory with the peruser customeizations in
it.  Globally the location of the software wouldn't appear critical, but
this needs to be verified.

The things to be considered are:
        local user defaults
        global defaults (set by the administrator only).
        global defaults that are session dependent and should probably be
assigned later.
        execution permissions
        log permissions
        profile data or other tracking data

In addition, some guidance on expected startup time will help one decide
if they should wait or just go on.

Regards,
Les H

On Mon, 2007-03-26 at 00:14 -0700, Les wrote:
I agree, but they did mention on the list that someone installed some
app that slowed down the server. Plus, we're both using software openGL
which will slow things down a tad. I thought they had that fixed. Now
that I have it running, it's still buggy as hell with mouse clicks and
movements. But, we do see the rabbit finally!! I run Croquet as root due
to the windows influences they seem to have. I agree with what you are
doing though... I just wanted it running with every permission I could
throw at it to make it run at all. <grins> The funny thing is that
SecondLife runs without a hitch. And they run linux on their servers. Go
figure... they're handling thousands of users at once and it's far
faster than Croquet, yet they are supposed to be related. Thanks! Ric

--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net
================================================

On Mar 26, 2007, at 9:48 , Ric Moore wrote:

> Plus, we're both using software openGL
> which will slow things down a tad. I thought they had that fixed.
> [.. snipped flame bait ...]

Who is "they"? There are many people running Croquet on Linux as non-
root. Fix your system or send a patch or at least write a detailed  
bug report. Or, in the spirit of SL, throw money at someone to fix it  
for you.

- Bert -

On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 00:01:45 -0800, Bert Freudenberg  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Or, in the spirit of SL, throw money at someone to fix it for you.

Spirit of Saint Louis?

Second Life, I would think.

On Mon, 2007-03-26 at 10:01 +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote: After you sent this, I sent a mail with my setup.  I had not read this at that time.  My linux setup runs quite well.  I am using
Evolution, Firefox, Evince, and various codec's and players for audio
and video.  My problem here is how to get error messages that tell me
what to look at, since I do not have any "manual" for Croquet.  I am
glad you have a working system and are happy with it.  I don't know what
your email added to this discussion, or maybe I can't read well.  What
do you suggest?

Regards,
Les Howell

On Mon, 2007-03-26 at 10:11 -0700, Les wrote: I know it is bad form to reply to your own email, but this is to correct
"my bad".  I found the SqueakDebug log.  I am attaching its contents
here.  Please do let me know what you see that is wrong.  There is no
"corquet debug log" of any kind that I can find at this time.

Squeak LOG follows:
Error: attempt to index non-existent element in an ordered collection
25 March 2007 11:43:04 pm

VM: unix - a SmalltalkImage
Image: Croquet1.0beta [latest update: #0]
SecurityManager state:
Restricted: false
FileAccess: true
SocketAccess: true
Working Dir /opt/CroquetCollaborative-1.0
Trusted Dir /opt/CroquetCollaborative-1.0/secure
Untrusted Dir /opt/CroquetCollaborative-1.0/My Squeak

OrderedCollection(Object)>>error: Receiver: an
OrderedCollection('CroquetV1.sources' 'Croquet.1.0.17.8.changes'
'Croquet.ini' 'Croquet...etc... Arguments and temporary variables:
                t1: 'attempt to index non-existent element in an ordered collection'
Receiver's instance variables:
                array: #(nil nil 'CroquetV1.sources' 'Croquet.1.0.17.8.changes'
'Croquet.ini' '...etc...

        firstIndex: 3
                lastIndex: 10

OrderedCollection>>errorNoSuchElement Receiver: an
OrderedCollection('CroquetV1.sources' 'Croquet.1.0.17.8.changes'
'Croquet.ini' 'Croquet...etc... Arguments and temporary variables:

        Receiver's instance variables:
                array: #(nil nil 'CroquetV1.sources' 'Croquet.1.0.17.8.changes'
'Croquet.ini' '...etc...

        firstIndex: 3
                lastIndex: 10

OrderedCollection>>at:
        Receiver: an OrderedCollection('CroquetV1.sources'
'Croquet.1.0.17.8.changes' 'Croquet.ini' 'Croquet...etc... Arguments
and temporary variables:
                t1: 0
        Receiver's instance variables:
                array: #(nil nil 'CroquetV1.sources' 'Croquet.1.0.17.8.changes'
'Croquet.ini' '...etc...
                firstIndex: 3
                lastIndex: 10

StandardFileStream class>>readOnlyFileDoesNotExistUserHandling:
        Receiver: StandardFileStream Arguments and temporary variables:
                t1: '/opt/CroquetCollaborative-1.0/CroquetV1.sources'
                t2: UnixFileDirectory on '/opt/CroquetCollaborative-1.0'
                t3: #('CroquetV1.sources' 'DShowVideoDecoderPlugin.dll' 'Croquet.exe'
'Croquet....etc...
                t4: an OrderedCollection('CroquetV1.sources'
'Croquet.1.0.17.8.changes' 'Croque...etc...
                t5: 0
                t6: nil
                t7: 'CroquetV1.sources'
        Receiver's instance variables:
                superclass: FileStream
                methodDict: a MethodDictionary(#actAsExecutor->a CompiledMethod
(2398) #ascii->...etc...
                format: 146
                instanceVariables: #('name' 'fileID' 'buffer1')
                organization: ('open/close' close closed ensureOpen open
open:forWrite: openRea...etc...
                subclasses: #(CrLfFileStream MultiByteFileStream)
                name: #StandardFileStream
                classPool: a Dictionary(#Registry->a WeakRegistry(<this WeakRegistry
is locked>...etc...
                sharedPools: nil
                environment: nil
                category: #'Files-Kernel'

--- The full stack ---
OrderedCollection(Object)>>error:
OrderedCollection>>errorNoSuchElement
OrderedCollection>>at:
StandardFileStream class>>readOnlyFileDoesNotExistUserHandling:
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
FileDoesNotExistException>>defaultAction
UndefinedObject>>handleSignal:
MethodContext(ContextPart)>>handleSignal:
FileDoesNotExistException(Exception)>>signal
StandardFileStream class>>readOnlyFileNamed:
StandardFileStream class>>readOnlyFileDoesNotExistUserHandling:
FileDoesNotExistException>>defaultAction
UndefinedObject>>handleSignal:
FileDoesNotExistException(Exception)>>pass
[] in PasteUpMorph>>becomeActiveDuring: {[:t5 |  ActiveWorld := t2.
ActiveEvent := t4.  ActiveHand := t3.  t5 pass]}
BlockContext>>valueWithPossibleArgs:
[] in MethodContext(ContextPart)>>handleSignal: {[(self tempAt: 2)
valueWithPossibleArgs: {t1}]} BlockContext>>ensure:
MethodContext(ContextPart)>>handleSignal:
FileDoesNotExistException(Exception)>>signal
MultiByteFileStream class(StandardFileStream class)>>readOnlyFileNamed:
UnixFileDirectory(FileDirectory)>>readOnlyFileNamed:
FileDirectory class>>openSources:forImage:
FileDirectory class>>openSources:andChanges:forImage:
SmalltalkImage>>openSourceFiles
FileDirectory class>>startUp
FileDirectory class(Behavior)>>startUp:
[] in SystemDictionary>>send:toClassesNamedIn:with: {[:t6 |  t5 := self
at: t6     ifAbsent: [].  t5   ifNil: [t4 add: t6]   ...]}
OrderedCollection>>do:
SystemDictionary>>send:toClassesNamedIn:with:
SystemDictionary>>processStartUpList:
SmalltalkImage>>snapshot:andQuit:embedded:
SmalltalkImage>>snapshot:andQuit:
TheWorldMenu>>saveAndQuit
TheWorldMenu>>doMenuItem:with:
[] in MenuItemMorph>>invokeWithEvent: {[(t2 := selector numArgs) = 0
ifTrue: [target perform: selector]   ifFalse...]}
BlockContext>>ensure:
CursorWithMask(Cursor)>>showWhile:
...etc...

This is where the file ends.  This is the first time I have ever
encountered error messages with the "...etc..." phrase in them.  I have
no idea how this could be simply debugged.  It appears that some element
of the code was not loaded.  However, the file unzipped and showed no
errors.  The install went well from what I could tell.  Is there some
tool to check the installation files?

Regards,
Les H

On Mar 26, 2007, at 19:43 , Les wrote:

> Please do let me know what you see that is wrong.

It tries to open

        /opt/CroquetCollaborative-1.0/CroquetV1.sources

and fails.

- Bert -

On Mar 26, 2007, at 19:11 , Les wrote:

Well, I actually replied to Ric's message who likened SL with its  
huge pockets to Croquet's volunteer effort. Maybe that was tongue-in-
cheek, but even so, to fix these problems that some Linux users are  
experiencing we need more details. You'll have to eliminate all  
differences one by one and then you'll find what the cause is. And  
most probably you'll have to do it yourself ("you" being Ric and  
everyone with problems). Take a system that works and one that does  
not and start comparing.

- Bert -

On Mon, 2007-03-26 at 20:55 +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote: Thanks, Bert,
        I did ls -al on that file, and found that the owner didn't have access.
I changed file priveleges to 777 (rwx for everyone) and it is now
working.  I keep getting data is slow messages in transcript for
repository
www.hedgehogsoftware.umn.edu:888/homebase but I don't think there is
much I can do with that right now.  The update appears to be working,
albeit very slowly.

        What I believe I need to do is to open each repository and do the
"install" macro to bring everything up to date.  Has anyone created a
"Linux how to install" for this software that includes the requirement
of opengl, openglu, and openal, along with port settings?

Regards,
Les H

On Mon, 2007-03-26 at 10:01 +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
> On Mar 26, 2007, at 9:48 , Ric Moore wrote:
>
> > Plus, we're both using software openGL
> > which will slow things down a tad. I thought they had that fixed.
> > [.. snipped flame bait ...]

What flame bait? I'm reporting a problem that many linux users may have,
as reasonable discourse between those of us ignorant to someone unknown
who may have an answer that subscribes to this list. To dismiss an
attempt to resolve a problem that may impact an number of potential
users gains you what? Why are you replying with a non-answer? What's in
it personally for you and have you gained something in the process?
 
> Who is "they"?

A patch was released after discussing the Linux openGL problems with
nVidia, by members of this list. Howard, do you recall who? My question:
is this patch included in the new release? I'm no programmer, so I
apologize if I do not live up to your expectations that I be one.
 
> There are many people running Croquet on Linux as non-
> root.

And your point is? I run it as root just so that it will have every
permission available to it as possible to make it run at all. That's how
pretty much every Windows machine operated natively, until recently.
Once I have something stable, on my machine, then the next step would be
to test/run it as a user. As shipped, the 1.0 version did not have the
execute permission set on the croquet.sh file nor the Linux binaries.
So, I give Croquet every possible advantage first, as very rudimentary
problems show up, for a Linux user, through the last three releases that
I have tried.

> Fix your system

I don't know that it is broken. Everything else runs perfectly,
including many high-end openGL games, without using mesa openGL libs.
With Croquet, I have to use it. Ergo, according to my thinking, there is
still some sort of problem to be addressed, if you care that Linux users
participate at all.

> or send a patch

I'm no programmer, and a patch was supplied several months ago, and I'm
asking if it's included in this release, as a problems seem to still
exist.

> or at least write a detailed  
> bug report.

Would it not be better to bounce it off the list first, in order for me
as a non-programmer to have resolved everything possible first, to
actually have a decent bug-report to file?? Otherwise, why have a list
at all? We either have a free exchange of information or we don't. You
so far are exchanging nothing towards the problem.

> Or, in the spirit of SL, throw money at someone to fix it  
> for you.

Is that your answer to the problem of the hardware openGL in
Croquet/Linux? It's no answer at all and it appears that you do not
possess an answer, so again why are you bothering to reply, Bert? There
must be some measure of personal gain or reward. I hope that you examine
your reaction and take some measure of personal responsibility to
resolve your reaction in the future. There's a lot of "shoulds" in your
reply, are you a student?

FYI, Wayward4now's Maxim states: "Power and Authority has an equal and
attendant amount of Responsibility. Any difference between the two is
the degree of dysfunction."  

--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net
================================================

On Mar 26, 2007, at 22:00 , Ric Moore wrote:

> On Mon, 2007-03-26 at 10:01 +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>> On Mar 26, 2007, at 9:48 , Ric Moore wrote:
>>
>>> Plus, we're both using software openGL
>>> which will slow things down a tad. I thought they had that fixed.
>>> [.. snipped flame bait ...]
>
> What flame bait? I'm reporting a problem that many linux users may  
> have,

No, you did not actually report something that any developer could  
somehow make use of.

> as reasonable discourse between those of us ignorant to someone  
> unknown
> who may have an answer that subscribes to this list. To dismiss an
> attempt to resolve a problem that may impact an number of potential
> users gains you what? Why are you replying with a non-answer?

I tried to list the things you could do to actually get your problem  
fixed. Bitching about "them" on "their" mailing list is not helpful.  
And I call stuff like "it's buggy as hell" from a non-developer  
bitching, and comparing it to a multi-million dollar project insulting.

> What's in it personally for you and have you gained something in  
> the process?

I had hoped you replied with some actual data.

> A patch was released after discussing the Linux openGL problems with
> nVidia, by members of this list. Howard, do you recall who?

You know, there are list archives. Or search engines. Do your homework.

> My question:
> is this patch included in the new release? I'm no programmer, so I
> apologize if I do not live up to your expectations that I be one.

Croquet is an SDK. The D stands for development. So my expectations  
are not that far off I'd say.

>> There are many people running Croquet on Linux as non-
>> root.
>
> And your point is?

My point it would be better if you stopped throwing around baseless  
assumptions that someone else may actually believe, because that  
would hinder actual progress in solving these problems.

Running a program as root may be the way to fix things on Windows.  
Not so on Linux.

Also, attributing deficiencies to some developer's Windows background  
as you did in your previous message is not helpful, at best.

>> Fix your system
>
> I don't know that it is broken. Everything else runs perfectly,
> including many high-end openGL games, without using mesa openGL libs.
> With Croquet, I have to use it. Ergo, according to my thinking,  
> there is
> still some sort of problem to be addressed, if you care that Linux  
> users
> participate at all.

I actually do care, otherwise I wouldn't respond at all.

You're sure? You might try another strategy than uneducated guesses.  
Like, compare what I contributed towards a solution to what you  
contributed besides this fruitless thread.

That is ridiculous. Even not counting that there was not a single  
"should" in my reply. I'm pretty sure you could find out who I am if  
you wanted. Or maybe some kind soul tips you off. But that's besides  
the point.

The point is that I sent a two-line reply listing four options that  
might have helped you to get Croquet working. You opted to choose  
none of these and explained why in a long mail. Wouldn't your time  
have been better spent finding out more about the actual problem?

- Bert -

On Mon, 2007-03-26 at 20:55 +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
HI, Bert and all,
        The final trick was that somehow my nvidia driver had been overwritten
on apparently both systems.  I now have it fixed on the faster system
and finally got good avatars and driving capability.  I am still having
dropouts during the updating process, but have successfully gotten the
system to respond.  I am reading up on writing software.  I am a better
programmer than I am a system administrator, so I expect that to go much
more smoothly.  Thanks to al of you for your patience and help.

Regards,
Les H