[Cuis] Cuis

>Squeak ceases to be an interesting platform because it hasn't got any
>continuous integration tools, it has no vision for such tools, and those
>it has got have just been discarded by the community without a second
>thought.

There are CI tools available - have a look how Lukas builds
Seaside images from Pharo - he can even integrate the results in Hudson
(a Java CI platform), see [1] or check the builds live [2].

>If I use BOB to build and regression test my code it only makes sense
>if the seaside team also uses Bob to build and regression test their
>code and the same goes for magma etc  etc.

And since the seaside team is not going to use Bob and I dont see
Squeak adopting your ideas after trunk I think your original vision
will not happen. At least not for Squeak/Seaside.

Most people I know use Monticello these days - it works even when
there are still issues left. You are able to load/unload packages,
have images with modularized packages and the ability to share
work between platforms like Squeak, Gemstone and Pharo. You can
even read Monticello into VisualWorks.

And there is Metacello now - solving the package management problem
for Monticello. Dont know if Squeak will adapt Metacello, if it will
not maintain Seaside or other packages separatly I think it should.
Hope people here will have a look at Metacello too. Only time will tell.

At least for Pharo I think Metacello becomes more widespread -
since Metacello does a good job (as far as I've tested) and it
is not bound to one platform. There are already many configurations
available, even when it still lacks some tools. But it is maintained,
documented, there is a commercial interest and it is well alive.

On the other side I dont see any progress on Sake/Bob these days
(we all know about the reasons, but there is now no force behind it)

I understand most of your points, how hard it is to get fire from any
side even when you tried to shape a better future and all
the other problems discussed here - the real question for you is
if you are able to leave the past behind and will be able
to share a new future again within this community (even when it
will walk a different direction than you originally proposed/shaped).
 
Bye
T.

[1] http://astares.blogspot.com/2010/01/hudson-build-for-smalltalk.html
[2] http://hudson.lukas-renggli.ch/

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> I understand most of your points, how hard it is to get fire from any
> side even when you tried to shape a better future and all
> the other problems discussed here - the real question for you is
> if you are able to leave the past behind and will be able
> to share a new future again within this community

Firstly that depends on the board producing some "terms of reference".

Secondly wasting three years on writing code for someone else and not  
getting supported in it, or paid for it, is not a mistake I really  
want to repeat.

Bob has some similar features to Hudson/whatever and has a somewhat  
simpler seaside UI. You mention MC having issues, well I did spend 6  
months trying to fix said issues, and I made a public repository so MC  
could be a common project for all forks. Metacello very  
overengineered. Does it track Universes package definitions? Gofer, a  
complex heirarhcy for four actual methods which do anything

According to you, it appears I should kick back, relax and if I wait  
long enough Lukas will develop it for me.

Good point, but Lukas doesn't tell you what he is going to do in  
advance, if you build anything on lukas' stuff be preopared to find  
the whole infrastructure changing under you in a weekend, he wont even  
look at any thing you offer as an addon. (e.g. Pier-Magma), so he wont  
think twice about breaking it and he doesnt incorporate feedback very  
readily. As one of the longest term, and most deeply involved pier  
users. Using pier as a basis for anything, was another one of those  
mistakes I should learn from.

regards

Keith.

Hello,

I've been lurking for the last seven years or so and I feel compelled to put in my two cents (quatre sous).

It really helps to look at open source development as a problem in non-linear dynamics. It is as likely that you will be able to predict the trajectory of development as it is that you will successfully herd cats with a cattle prod. What one can do, however, is condition the phase space in which developers interact. The idea is to establish a fixed point that represents the common ideals and values of the community. Then everybody takes a random walk in that space. As long as each step is contractive towards the ideal, the trajectory of the random walk will be an attractor process toward the fixed point.

How is this accomplished? I'd like to think the Squeak World Tour is a great example. It established the fixed point of reliable builds, modular code, comprehensive unit testing, agnostic app widgets etc. Someone once asked me if I felt bad that the World Tour was a failure. I paused for a moment to digest the message... it never occurred to me that it was anything but a resounding success.

So we don't have build scripts for components, but Squeak map certainly was inspired by the spike. We don't have ginsu and VSE like packages and clusters, but we have monticello and metacello. I recall the test runner opening up in those days with the SUnit self tests, the Exception tests we wrote and the Collection and Stream tests we wrote. Now, I find tests that cover a great proportion of the image. Oh yeah, there was that UIBuilder that built either MVC or Morphic widgets on top of the application model. That too has inspired a ToolBuilder project with devoted developers.

I care about ideals. There will always be friction in a community, but the evolution of trunk represents the community's trajectory toward the fixed point. It may not be the shortest route, but it is reliable. Big vehicles change direction slowly and should avoid acquiring such momentum that it shoots past its destination.

So my name isn't on the code. My way of doing each of these things is mouldering in a bit bucket somewhere. I care not a whit. Why? Because I'm more of a gardener. I don't make the seeds grow. I don't make the sun shine or the rain fall. But I am able to set up initial conditions and see what blooms. It seems there are two great gardens flourishing right now. The big meandering Squeak garden and the carefully pruned Pharo garden. Great! I love them both. Even better, they are now able to share improvements and discoveries each make with regard to the things growing in these gardens.

Sure, there are things that got lost on the way... (VSE style subsystems and programs with namespace support that didn't add any syntax to smalltalk and had no runtime cost is one I still long for) ... but look how far we have come as a community. I've been squeaking for more than a decade, and from that perspective I see great progress. For things the things I long for that are still missing, I must step back, assess where we are and ask myself, what seed captures the essence of what has been done before that should be again.... and start planning next years garden.

John Sarkela :-}>

On Jan 22, 2010, at 3:47 AM, Torsten Bergmann wrote:

John said:

> I care about ideals.

I care about ideals too.

My company and my clients would definitely benefit if I was able to  
use a position on the board of a major oss project to promote my own  
requirements for a development environment, and to recruit free  
workers and testers for my development tools, according to my  
specifications.

So, I will not run for the board, because that would be an abuse of  
what the board is intended to be.

The board is there as a benevolent force to oil the workings of the  
oss community, through liason, motivation, moral support (approving  
proposals), technical support (webservers), financial and legal  
support for that community.

Our board doesn't even have a vision statement, let along a code of  
conduct, equal opportunities policy etc.

Keith

On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 09:08:34AM -0500, john wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I've been lurking for the last seven years or so and I feel compelled to put in
> my two cents (quatre sous).


> John Sarkela :-}>
>

Nice perspective. Thanks for de-lurking!

Dave