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Dalvik vs. ART: Android virtual machines and the battle for better performance | Pocketnow

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philippeback

Dec 12, 2013; 9:08pm

Dalvik vs. ART: Android virtual machines and the battle for better performance | Pocketnow

http://m.pocketnow.com/2013/11/13/dalvik-vs-art

Eliot Miranda-2

Dec 12, 2013; 9:20pm

Re: Dalvik vs. ART: Android virtual machines and the battle for better performance | Pocketnow

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:08 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

http://m.pocketnow.com/2013/11/13/dalvik-vs-art

"The benefits? Some sources are reporting a 50% increase in speed. Others say it’s closer to 100%. Many claim they’ve seen their battery life increase by 25% or more!"

Got to love those 100% speed increases. Apps really fly when they take no time at all...

Eliot

Nicolas Cellier

Dec 12, 2013; 9:23pm

Re: Dalvik vs. ART: Android virtual machines and the battle for better performance | Pocketnow

I would interpret twice as fast, and that's only 50% rather than 100% reduction of execution time :)

2013/12/12 Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:08 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

http://m.pocketnow.com/2013/11/13/dalvik-vs-art

"The benefits? Some sources are reporting a 50% increase in speed. Others say it’s closer to 100%. Many claim they’ve seen their battery life increase by 25% or more!"

Got to love those 100% speed increases. Apps really fly when they take no time at all...

--
Eliot

... [show rest of quote]

Eliot Miranda-2

Dec 12, 2013; 9:26pm

Re: Dalvik vs. ART: Android virtual machines and the battle for better performance | Pocketnow

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:23 PM, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote:

I would interpret twice as fast, and that's only 50% rather than 100% reduction of execution time :)

relative performance = new time - old time / old time.

2x = -50%

3x = -75%

etc

-100% means new time = 0, and performance is infinite.

2013/12/12 Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:08 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

http://m.pocketnow.com/2013/11/13/dalvik-vs-art

"The benefits? Some sources are reporting a 50% increase in speed. Others say it’s closer to 100%. Many claim they’ve seen their battery life increase by 25% or more!"

Got to love those 100% speed increases. Apps really fly when they take no time at all...

--
Eliot

... [show rest of quote]

... [show rest of quote]

--
best,

Eliot

timrowledge

Dec 12, 2013; 9:26pm

Re: Dalvik vs. ART: Android virtual machines and the battle for better performance | Pocketnow

In reply to this post by Eliot Miranda-2

On 12-12-2013, at 1:20 PM, Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Got to love those 100% speed increases. Apps really fly when they take no time at all…

The downside is that infinitely fast computers crash instantly.

tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
Useful random insult:- Several nuts over fruitcake minimum.

Nicolas Cellier

Dec 12, 2013; 10:53pm

Re: Dalvik vs. ART: Android virtual machines and the battle for better performance | Pocketnow

In reply to this post by Eliot Miranda-2

But he said increase in speed, not performance.

2013/12/12 Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:23 PM, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote:

I would interpret twice as fast, and that's only 50% rather than 100% reduction of execution time :)

relative performance = new time - old time / old time.
2x = -50%
3x = -75%
etc

-100% means new time = 0, and performance is infinite.

2013/12/12 Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:08 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

http://m.pocketnow.com/2013/11/13/dalvik-vs-art

"The benefits? Some sources are reporting a 50% increase in speed. Others say it’s closer to 100%. Many claim they’ve seen their battery life increase by 25% or more!"

Got to love those 100% speed increases. Apps really fly when they take no time at all...

--
Eliot

... [show rest of quote]

... [show rest of quote]

--
best,
Eliot

... [show rest of quote]

Eliot Miranda-2

Dec 12, 2013; 10:57pm

Re: Dalvik vs. ART: Android virtual machines and the battle for better performance | Pocketnow

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote:

But he said increase in speed, not performance.

Same argument. What does it mean to complete a task 100% faster? What does it mean to reach your destination 100% faster?

2013/12/12 Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:23 PM, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote:

I would interpret twice as fast, and that's only 50% rather than 100% reduction of execution time :)

relative performance = new time - old time / old time.
2x = -50%
3x = -75%
etc

-100% means new time = 0, and performance is infinite.

2013/12/12 Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:08 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

http://m.pocketnow.com/2013/11/13/dalvik-vs-art

"The benefits? Some sources are reporting a 50% increase in speed. Others say it’s closer to 100%. Many claim they’ve seen their battery life increase by 25% or more!"

Got to love those 100% speed increases. Apps really fly when they take no time at all...

--
Eliot

... [show rest of quote]

... [show rest of quote]

--
best,
Eliot

... [show rest of quote]

... [show rest of quote]

--
best,

Eliot

Igor Stasenko

Dec 12, 2013; 11:13pm

Re: Dalvik vs. ART: Android virtual machines and the battle for better performance | Pocketnow

On 12 December 2013 23:57, Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote:

But he said increase in speed, not performance.

Same argument. What does it mean to complete a task 100% faster? What does it mean to reach your destination 100% faster?

not much apart from the author's lack of literacy :)

2013/12/12 Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:23 PM, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote:

I would interpret twice as fast, and that's only 50% rather than 100% reduction of execution time :)

relative performance = new time - old time / old time.
2x = -50%
3x = -75%
etc

-100% means new time = 0, and performance is infinite.

2013/12/12 Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:08 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

http://m.pocketnow.com/2013/11/13/dalvik-vs-art

"The benefits? Some sources are reporting a 50% increase in speed. Others say it’s closer to 100%. Many claim they’ve seen their battery life increase by 25% or more!"

Got to love those 100% speed increases. Apps really fly when they take no time at all...

--
Eliot

... [show rest of quote]

... [show rest of quote]

--
best,
Eliot

... [show rest of quote]

... [show rest of quote]

--
best,
Eliot

... [show rest of quote]

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

philippeback

Dec 13, 2013; 12:11am

Re: Dalvik vs. ART: Android virtual machines and the battle for better performance | Pocketnow

Google wants to beat the speed of iOS. iOS uses native code and Objective-C highly optimized dispatch loop. So, with a less powerful piece of hardware, Apple devices trounce Android ones when it comes to smoothness of animations, battery etc.

As Android uses the Dalvik VM, the only way to get as speedy as iOS is to go as close to native as possible.

We are talking 60 fps for a lot of pixels these days. My Nexus 7 with 4.4.2 still feels laggy compared to my iPad2. That is due to the whole VM/Java thing. iPad2 is 2-core, Nexus 7 is 4-core and with a NVidia graphics chip.

AOT is working very well when it comes to Java code (well, Android Dalvik bytecode here).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOT_compiler

AOT is getting a lot of traction these days. LLVM also has this.

So, why care about 50% or 100%, the point is that it is getting faster in a way that affects the user perception. Which is what matters.

For example, Pharo feels slow compared to Dolphin, Smalltalk/X etc. Maybe the VM is of equivalent speed. Not the user experience.

Phil

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 12:13 AM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 12 December 2013 23:57, Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote:

But he said increase in speed, not performance.

Same argument. What does it mean to complete a task 100% faster? What does it mean to reach your destination 100% faster?

not much apart from the author's lack of literacy :)

2013/12/12 Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:23 PM, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote:

I would interpret twice as fast, and that's only 50% rather than 100% reduction of execution time :)

relative performance = new time - old time / old time.
2x = -50%
3x = -75%
etc

-100% means new time = 0, and performance is infinite.

2013/12/12 Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:08 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

http://m.pocketnow.com/2013/11/13/dalvik-vs-art

"The benefits? Some sources are reporting a 50% increase in speed. Others say it’s closer to 100%. Many claim they’ve seen their battery life increase by 25% or more!"

Got to love those 100% speed increases. Apps really fly when they take no time at all...

--
Eliot

... [show rest of quote]

... [show rest of quote]

--
best,
Eliot

... [show rest of quote]

... [show rest of quote]

--
best,
Eliot

... [show rest of quote]

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

... [show rest of quote]

Nicolas Cellier

Dec 13, 2013; 12:43am

Re: Dalvik vs. ART: Android virtual machines and the battle for better performance | Pocketnow

If you want to know if it's the VM, I'd say just try Cuis.

2013/12/13 [hidden email] <[hidden email]>

Google wants to beat the speed of iOS. iOS uses native code and Objective-C highly optimized dispatch loop. So, with a less powerful piece of hardware, Apple devices trounce Android ones when it comes to smoothness of animations, battery etc.

As Android uses the Dalvik VM, the only way to get as speedy as iOS is to go as close to native as possible.

We are talking 60 fps for a lot of pixels these days. My Nexus 7 with 4.4.2 still feels laggy compared to my iPad2. That is due to the whole VM/Java thing. iPad2 is 2-core, Nexus 7 is 4-core and with a NVidia graphics chip.

AOT is working very well when it comes to Java code (well, Android Dalvik bytecode here).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOT_compiler

AOT is getting a lot of traction these days. LLVM also has this.

So, why care about 50% or 100%, the point is that it is getting faster in a way that affects the user perception. Which is what matters.

For example, Pharo feels slow compared to Dolphin, Smalltalk/X etc. Maybe the VM is of equivalent speed. Not the user experience.

Phil

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 12:13 AM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 12 December 2013 23:57, Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote:

But he said increase in speed, not performance.

Same argument. What does it mean to complete a task 100% faster? What does it mean to reach your destination 100% faster?

not much apart from the author's lack of literacy :)

2013/12/12 Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:23 PM, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote:

I would interpret twice as fast, and that's only 50% rather than 100% reduction of execution time :)

relative performance = new time - old time / old time.
2x = -50%
3x = -75%
etc

-100% means new time = 0, and performance is infinite.

2013/12/12 Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:08 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

http://m.pocketnow.com/2013/11/13/dalvik-vs-art

"The benefits? Some sources are reporting a 50% increase in speed. Others say it’s closer to 100%. Many claim they’ve seen their battery life increase by 25% or more!"

Got to love those 100% speed increases. Apps really fly when they take no time at all...

--
Eliot

... [show rest of quote]

... [show rest of quote]

--
best,
Eliot

... [show rest of quote]

... [show rest of quote]

--
best,
Eliot

... [show rest of quote]

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

... [show rest of quote]

... [show rest of quote]

David T. Lewis

Dec 13, 2013; 1:05am

Re: Dalvik vs. ART: Android virtual machines and the battle for better performance | Pocketnow

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 01:43:03AM +0100, Nicolas Cellier wrote:
>
> If you want to know if it's the VM, I'd say just try Cuis.
>

+1

Not to say that VM performance isn't important, it absolutely is. So
is memory, and so it a fast CPU. But nothing beats clean design and
implementation, and Cuis is proof of that.

Dave

>
> 2013/12/13 [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
>
> >
> > Google wants to beat the speed of iOS. iOS uses native code and
> > Objective-C highly optimized dispatch loop. So, with a less powerful piece
> > of hardware, Apple devices trounce Android ones when it comes to smoothness
> > of animations, battery etc.
> >
> > As Android uses the Dalvik VM, the only way to get as speedy as iOS is to
> > go as close to native as possible.
> >
> > We are talking 60 fps for a lot of pixels these days. My Nexus 7 with
> > 4.4.2 still feels laggy compared to my iPad2. That is due to the whole
> > VM/Java thing. iPad2 is 2-core, Nexus 7 is 4-core and with a NVidia
> > graphics chip.
> >
> > AOT is working very well when it comes to Java code (well, Android Dalvik
> > bytecode here).
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOT_compiler
> >
> > AOT is getting a lot of traction these days. LLVM also has this.
> >
> > So, why care about 50% or 100%, the point is that it is getting faster in
> > a way that affects the user perception. Which is what matters.
> >
> > For example, Pharo feels slow compared to Dolphin, Smalltalk/X etc. Maybe
> > the VM is of equivalent speed. Not the user experience.
> >
> > Phil
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 12:13 AM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]>wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 12 December 2013 23:57, Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Nicolas Cellier <
> >>> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> But he said increase in speed, not performance.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Same argument. What does it mean to complete a task 100% faster? What
> >>> does it mean to reach your destination 100% faster?
> >>>
> >>>
> >> not much apart from the author's lack of literacy :)
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 2013/12/12 Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:23 PM, Nicolas Cellier <
> >>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I would interpret twice as fast, and that's only 50% rather than 100%
> >>>>>> reduction of execution time :)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> relative performance = new time - old time / old time.
> >>>>> 2x = -50%
> >>>>> 3x = -75%
> >>>>> etc
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -100% means new time = 0, and performance is infinite.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 2013/12/12 Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:08 PM, [hidden email] <
> >>>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> http://m.pocketnow.com/2013/11/13/dalvik-vs-art
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "The benefits? Some sources are reporting a 50% increase in speed.
> >>>>>>> Others say it?s closer to 100%. Many claim they?ve seen their battery life
> >>>>>>> increase by 25% or more!"
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Got to love those 100% speed increases. Apps really fly when they
> >>>>>>> take no time at all...
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Eliot
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> best,
> >>>>> Eliot
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> best,
> >>> Eliot
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Best regards,
> >> Igor Stasenko.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >

... [show rest of quote]

Nicolas Cellier

Dec 13, 2013; 1:16am

Re: Dalvik vs. ART: Android virtual machines and the battle for better performance | Pocketnow

In reply to this post by Eliot Miranda-2

That's completely germane, but he didn't say 100% faster, it's me that said twice as fast.

Speed is measurable say as number of operations per second (ops), if my score is 10 ops, then a 100% increase of speed => 20 ops.

I love percents, for you can say one thing, and be sure another will be understood ;)

2013/12/12 Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote:

But he said increase in speed, not performance.

Same argument. What does it mean to complete a task 100% faster? What does it mean to reach your destination 100% faster?

2013/12/12 Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:23 PM, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote:

I would interpret twice as fast, and that's only 50% rather than 100% reduction of execution time :)

relative performance = new time - old time / old time.
2x = -50%
3x = -75%
etc

-100% means new time = 0, and performance is infinite.

2013/12/12 Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:08 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

http://m.pocketnow.com/2013/11/13/dalvik-vs-art

"The benefits? Some sources are reporting a 50% increase in speed. Others say it’s closer to 100%. Many claim they’ve seen their battery life increase by 25% or more!"

Got to love those 100% speed increases. Apps really fly when they take no time at all...

--
Eliot

... [show rest of quote]

... [show rest of quote]

--
best,
Eliot

... [show rest of quote]

... [show rest of quote]

--
best,
Eliot

... [show rest of quote]

timrowledge

Dec 13, 2013; 3:31am

Re: Dalvik vs. ART: Android virtual machines and the battle for better performance | Pocketnow

In reply to this post by philippeback

On 12-12-2013, at 1:08 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> http://m.pocketnow.com/2013/11/13/dalvik-vs-art
>

What goes around, comes around I guess. This AOT stuff was proposed many years ago in an ACM journal; distribute code as something like source, process it on each machine at install, load, or early run time. The argument was that machines were by then fast enough that somewhat pre-digested source could be locally polished & ready to run without bothering the user.

I’ve argued for a related idea in our vm on a few occasions, ie keeping the translated code along with each method and saving it in the image, with obvious requirements for flushing the cached stuff if the image starts up on a different architecture. Another idea was to have a HonkinBigServer somewhere on the net that would deliver the digested versions of methods to a system a bit like Spoon, allowing even dinky machines to benefit. Assuming they had tolerable network access of course.

JIT compiling has the advantage that only what you actually run gets processed, but you lose the processed stuff on occasion (cache over fill, image startup, etc). Pre-processing means dealing with all the code, costing processing time, space, but saving run time, usually. I suspect a mix would provide a configurable mix of benefits that might be best.

Of course, the first thing that happens when a system gets faster or bigger is that some fool comes along and uses O(n^3) algorithms to replace some nice fast O(n) code.

tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
loggerheads - lumberjack sniffing addicts

Göran Krampe

Dec 13, 2013; 7:46am

Re: Dalvik vs. ART: Android virtual machines and the battle for better performance | Pocketnow

On 12/13/2013 04:31 AM, tim Rowledge wrote:
> I’ve argued for a related idea in our vm on a few occasions, ie
> keeping the translated code along with each method and saving it in
> the image, with obvious requirements for flushing the cached stuff if
> the image starts up on a different architecture.

Just like NativeBoost does today :)

And I think Exupery does/did something similar (not sure Bryce is still
working on it - the archive seems silent since 2010).

regards, Göran

Eliot Miranda-2

Dec 13, 2013; 5:11pm

Re: Dalvik vs. ART: Android virtual machines and the battle for better performance | Pocketnow

In reply to this post by Nicolas Cellier

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 5:16 PM, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote:

That's completely germane, but he didn't say 100% faster, it's me that said twice as fast.

I posted a quote. "Others say it’s closer to 100%.". As Igor said, it's illiterate nonsense. I posted a jokey reply.

Speed is measurable say as number of operations per second (ops), if my score is 10 ops, then a 100% increase of speed => 20 ops.

I love percents, for you can say one thing, and be sure another will be understood ;)

That's why one must use a well-defined unambiguous measure of performance: new - old / old, hence 100% faster is at best ambiguous and at worse meaningless.

2013/12/12 Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote:

But he said increase in speed, not performance.

Same argument. What does it mean to complete a task 100% faster? What does it mean to reach your destination 100% faster?

2013/12/12 Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:23 PM, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote:

I would interpret twice as fast, and that's only 50% rather than 100% reduction of execution time :)

relative performance = new time - old time / old time.
2x = -50%
3x = -75%
etc

-100% means new time = 0, and performance is infinite.

2013/12/12 Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:08 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

http://m.pocketnow.com/2013/11/13/dalvik-vs-art

"The benefits? Some sources are reporting a 50% increase in speed. Others say it’s closer to 100%. Many claim they’ve seen their battery life increase by 25% or more!"

Got to love those 100% speed increases. Apps really fly when they take no time at all...

--
Eliot

... [show rest of quote]

... [show rest of quote]

--
best,
Eliot

... [show rest of quote]

... [show rest of quote]

--
best,
Eliot

... [show rest of quote]

... [show rest of quote]

--
best,

Eliot

askoh

Dec 13, 2013; 9:07pm

Re: Dalvik vs. ART: Android virtual machines and the battle for better performance | Pocketnow

Administrator

In reply to this post by Göran Krampe

I am not a VM guy. But, is the Smalltalk in a C World article compiling Smalltalk to machine code to run without the VM?
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~dc552/papers/SmalltalkInACWorld.pdf

He talks about the VM being a relic of the past. Is that true?

All the best,
Aik-Siong Koh

Eliot Miranda-2

Dec 13, 2013; 9:19pm

Re: Dalvik vs. ART: Android virtual machines and the battle for better performance | Pocketnow

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 1:07 PM, askoh <[hidden email]> wrote:

I am not a VM guy. But, is the Smalltalk in a C World article compiling
Smalltalk to machine code to run without the VM?
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~dc552/papers/SmalltalkInACWorld.pdf

He talks about the VM being a relic of the past. Is that true?

Is the Java VM a relic of the past? Given portable devices is compiled code a relic of the past? Is a safe development environment with fast compile times a thing of the past? Their own conclusions imply that the answer is not yet:

"Our current approach lacks some of the advantages of Smalltalk. The most obvious of these is debugging. Our current implementation emits very sparse DWARF debugging information and so is fairly limited in terms of debugging support even in comparison to C, and therefore a long way behind the state of the art for Smalltalk circa 1980. This is currently the focus of ongoing work. Once this is done, then implementing things like thisContext making use of debug metadata become possible. In our current implementation, run-time introspection is only available for objects and variables bound to blocks, not for activation records.

Closely related is the rest of the IDE. In traditional Smalltalk implementations, the IDE is closely integrated with the execution environment. GNU Smalltalk is the major exception, and provides a model close to ours. Building a good IDE and debugger is beyond the scope of the LanguageKit project, but building these tools on top of LanguageKit is a goal of E ́toile ́."

All the best,
Aik-Siong Koh

--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Dalvik-vs-ART-Android-virtual-machines-and-the-battle-for-better-performance-Pocketnow-tp4729727p4729982.html
Sent from the Squeak VM mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

--
best,

Eliot

askoh

Dec 13, 2013; 9:45pm

Re: Dalvik vs. ART: Android virtual machines and the battle for better performance | Pocketnow

Administrator

Good to know. So, can we debug using the VM and then deliver the Smalltalk compiled?

Eliot Miranda-2

Dec 13, 2013; 9:51pm

Re: Dalvik vs. ART: Android virtual machines and the battle for better performance | Pocketnow

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 1:45 PM, askoh <[hidden email]> wrote:

Good to know. So, can we debug using the VM and then deliver the Smalltalk
compiled?

in the right context yes. deploying on a cloud maybe. deploying on a phone, probably not.

--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Dalvik-vs-ART-Android-virtual-machines-and-the-battle-for-better-performance-Pocketnow-tp4729727p4729991.html

Sent from the Squeak VM mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

--
best,

Eliot

Clément Béra

Dec 14, 2013; 8:04am

Re: Dalvik vs. ART: Android virtual machines and the battle for better performance | Pocketnow

In reply to this post by Eliot Miranda-2

Hello,

2013/12/13 Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 1:07 PM, askoh <[hidden email]> wrote:

I am not a VM guy. But, is the Smalltalk in a C World article compiling
Smalltalk to machine code to run without the VM?
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~dc552/papers/SmalltalkInACWorld.pdf

He talks about the VM being a relic of the past. Is that true?

Is the Java VM a relic of the past? Given portable devices is compiled code a relic of the past? Is a safe development environment with fast compile times a thing of the past? Their own conclusions imply that the answer is not yet:

What do you mean by not yet ? Do you think that in a 10 or 20 years VMs will be obsolete ?

There's 1 detail I am not sure. By JIT in this article (http://m.pocketnow.com/2013/11/13/dalvik-vs-art), does he mean the bytecode to native code generator only or the native code generator + inline cache management + adaptive recompiler.

I'm wondering, even if they have their code stored as native code instead of byte code, do they have some kind of native code generator for adaptive recompilation to reach such a performance ?

And how do they manage their inline caches ? As all methods are native, some monomorphic inline caches could be promoted to PIC due to 1 very rare case and then as they always keep the same n-code this send site would be slower forever. Does this mean they would need to empty inline caches sometimes ?

"Our current approach lacks some of the advantages of Smalltalk. The most obvious of these is debugging. Our current implementation emits very sparse DWARF debugging information and so is fairly limited in terms of debugging support even in comparison to C, and therefore a long way behind the state of the art for Smalltalk circa 1980. This is currently the focus of ongoing work. Once this is done, then implementing things like thisContext making use of debug metadata become possible. In our current implementation, run-time introspection is only available for objects and variables bound to blocks, not for activation records.

Closely related is the rest of the IDE. In traditional Smalltalk implementations, the IDE is closely integrated with the execution environment. GNU Smalltalk is the major exception, and provides a model close to ours. Building a good IDE and debugger is beyond the scope of the LanguageKit project, but building these tools on top of LanguageKit is a goal of E ́toile ́."

All the best,
Aik-Siong Koh

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best,
Eliot

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