Developer guide ... ?

Hi folks!

I really would appreciate some sort of "orientation" in this jungle of code in Pharo/Squeak ...

1. What classes are compatible to other smalltalks? When i follow mailing-lists of Dolphin, Squeak, VW, VA Magma - there still is a bunch of porting problems. Why?????? What classes should i give preference to minimize porting cost?

2. Interfaces ... hmmm, well ... there are many programmes thinking in categories of "interfaces", "libraries", "class dependencies", e.t.c. Of course, Smalltalk is something completely different, but it makes it difficult for s.b. e.g. coming from Java or C++, to find into Smalltalk concepts. Gofer - till now, i have just a wage imagination, what it's good for ...

3. GUI builder. IMHO, it's very easy to build a GUI with morphic. In Squeak, e.g. i simply generate my input forms with EToys, which can be replaced of course by a few lines of code typed in by hand ... But for developers coming from Java, C++ ... the first ask for a GUI builder and XAML e.t.c. There should be some documentation, that leads programmers, that are willing to switch over to Smalltalk, into the right direction. Just a few examples, e.g. how to build a form, that scrolls through some MySQL data sets, really would help. What about compatibility? Is Morphic portable to other Smalltalks?

4. Multitasking, green threads, ... There are really missing some pointers, howto code e.g. a background process that is fetching some data from e.g. MySQL or reading/writing large files, sending data over network -  without freezing the GUI.

5. Standards: XML-RPC, SOAP, RMI, CORBA, .... encryption (SSL) ... Without having a precise idea, where to find working examples to exchance data with other systems, i would hesitate to begin to do projects with Pharo/Squeak ...

6. Databases: Magma seems to be fine as database, but also dog slow. I really hesitate to start serious projects with Magma.

7. Speed, Memory consumption, Quality of modern algorithms: When working with Seaside, PIER ... that stuff is dog slow, memory consuption is hardly predictable. That makes webhosting e.g. on vservers absolutely impossible, the whole system quickly becomes unstable. IMHO in Pharo there are routines, that really waste a lot of memory, that could be programmed in a more intelligent way, expecially collection's algorithms ... ;-)
Perhaps Donald Knuth books ("Art of Computer Programming") could help? Where e.g. is 'fulltext hash' or 'fulltext search' implemented in Magma, e.t.c.? Whole world works with fulltext databases (Google, MySQL, PostgreSQL, even MSSQL, Oracle). Thats 'state of the art'!!!!!!!! Search in TB databases in milliseconds!

so far my 0.0199999999€

Keep up the good work on Pharo, it's still a long way to go!

regards, Guido Stepken

> 1. What classes are compatible to other smalltalks? When i follow
> mailing-lists of Dolphin, Squeak, VW, VA Magma - there still is a bunch of
> porting problems. Why?????? What classes should i give preference to
> minimize porting cost?

http://www.seaside.st/community/conventions (Portability)

> 2. Interfaces ... hmmm, well ... there are many programmes thinking in
> categories of "interfaces", "libraries", "class dependencies", e.t.c. Of
> course, Smalltalk is something completely different, but it makes it
> difficult for s.b. e.g. coming from Java or C++, to find into Smalltalk
> concepts. Gofer - till now, i have just a wage imagination, what it's good
> for ...

Don't know what you are talking about?

> 3. GUI builder. IMHO, it's very easy to build a GUI with morphic. In Squeak,
> e.g. i simply generate my input forms with EToys, which can be replaced of
> course by a few lines of code typed in by hand ... But for developers coming
> from Java, C++ ... the first ask for a GUI builder and XAML e.t.c. There
> should be some documentation, that leads programmers, that are willing to
> switch over to Smalltalk, into the right direction. Just a few examples,
> e.g. how to build a form, that scrolls through some MySQL data sets, really
> would help. What about compatibility? Is Morphic portable to other
> Smalltalks?

No.

> 4. Multitasking, green threads, ... There are really missing some pointers,
> howto code e.g. a background process that is fetching some data from e.g.
> MySQL or reading/writing large files, sending data over network -  without
> freezing the GUI.

[ self writeLargeFile ] fork

> 5. Standards: XML-RPC, SOAP, RMI, CORBA, .... encryption (SSL) ... Without
> having a precise idea, where to find working examples to exchance data with
> other systems, i would hesitate to begin to do projects with Pharo/Squeak
> ...
>
> 6. Databases: Magma seems to be fine as database, but also dog slow. I
> really hesitate to start serious projects with Magma.

GemStone/S

> 7. Speed, Memory consumption, Quality of modern algorithms: When working
> with Seaside, PIER ... that stuff is dog slow

Compared to what?

> That makes webhosting e.g. on vservers absolutely impossible,
> the whole system quickly becomes unstable. IMHO in Pharo there are routines,
> that really waste a lot of memory, that could be programmed in a more
> intelligent way, expecially collection's algorithms ... ;-)

There is a submission process for improvements. Feel free to contribute.

Lukas

--
Lukas Renggli
http://www.lukas-renggli.ch

_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

2009/12/30 Guido Stepken <[hidden email]>:
I have that information in my personal Swiki, too many pages to share
and didn't see a potential profit since I have to search for work in
.Net/Java now :(

Have you tried? http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2978

>
> 5. Standards: XML-RPC, SOAP, RMI, CORBA, .... encryption (SSL) ... Without
> having a precise idea, where to find working examples to exchance data with
> other systems, i would hesitate to begin to do projects with Pharo/Squeak
> ...
>
> 6. Databases: Magma seems to be fine as database, but also dog slow. I
> really hesitate to start serious projects with Magma.
>

Then start one like we did in CONICET in Argentina, see
http://documentosyobjetos.ning.com/video/opus-series-impresas-y-en
(that's a video of the first FRBRoo implementation in Smalltalk, using
Seaside and Magma)

> 7. Speed, Memory consumption, Quality of modern algorithms: When working
> with Seaside, PIER ... that stuff is dog slow, memory consuption is hardly
> predictable. That makes webhosting e.g. on vservers absolutely impossible,
> the whole system quickly becomes unstable. IMHO in Pharo there are routines,
> that really waste a lot of memory, that could be programmed in a more
> intelligent way, expecially collection's algorithms ... ;-)

> Perhaps Donald Knuth books ("Art of Computer Programming") could help? Where
> e.g. is 'fulltext hash' or 'fulltext search' implemented in Magma, e.t.c.?
> Whole world works with fulltext databases (Google, MySQL, PostgreSQL, even
> MSSQL, Oracle). Thats 'state of the art'!!!!!!!! Search in TB databases in
> milliseconds!

No, latest text searching algorithms aren't in that book. And the
world doesn't starts and end in Google and Oracle databases, there are
lot of users doing controlled vocabulary searches in commercial or
government systems.

Cheers,

Hernán

_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

--
-JT



_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Hi Mariano,

2009/12/30 Mariano Martinez Peck <[hidden email]>:
I think sometimes this depends of the library itself, for example in
the ZOOM API for the Z39.50 protocol you may specify an async
parameter in the connection mode for operating asynchronously, then
you would have non-blocking calls with the exception of event polling.
Cheers,

Hernán

_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Guido Stepken wrote:

>
>
> 1. What classes are compatible to other smalltalks? When i follow
> mailing-lists of Dolphin, Squeak, VW, VA Magma - there still is a bunch of
> porting problems. Why?????? What classes should i give preference to
> minimize porting cost?

Why would you like to port your app?

> 2. Interfaces ... hmmm, well ... there are many programmes thinking in
> categories of "interfaces", "libraries", "class dependencies", e.t.c. Of
> course, Smalltalk is something completely different, but it makes it
> difficult for s.b. e.g. coming from Java or C++, to find into Smalltalk
> concepts. Gofer - till now, i have just a wage imagination, what it's
> good for ...

Reading a book is generally helpful when someone is learning a new
language. But it's not necessary with smalltalks since the system is
so open that, one can learn by exploring it.

> 4. Multitasking, green threads, ... There are really missing some pointers,
> howto code e.g. a background process that is fetching some data from e.g.
> MySQL or reading/writing large files, sending data over network - without
> freezing the GUI.

As others pointed out, these are implemented with blocks. What would you
do if, say you wanted to know how to do threading in java? Reading a book
or googling is helpful:
- http://www.google.com/search?q=squeak+threads
(I guess a chapter on processes would be useful in PBE/SBE.)

> 5. Standards: XML-RPC, SOAP, RMI, CORBA, .... encryption (SSL) ... Without
> having a precise idea, where to find working examples to exchance data with
> other systems, i would hesitate to begin to do projects with Pharo/Squeak...

Some of this crap is available at squeaksource/squeakmap.

> 6. Databases: Magma seems to be fine as database, but also dog slow. I
> really hesitate to start serious projects with Magma.
>
> 7. Speed, Memory consumption, Quality of modern algorithms: When working
> with Seaside, PIER ... that stuff is dog slow, memory consuption is hardly
> predictable. That makes webhosting e.g. on vservers absolutely impossible,
> the whole system quickly becomes unstable. IMHO in Pharo there are routines,

Tuning the garbage collector (which one should do when deploying an image)
may help here. Btw I didn't experience such problems with seaside (2.8 & 3.0).

> that really waste a lot of memory, that could be programmed in a more
> intelligent way, expecially collection's algorithms ... ;-)
> Perhaps Donald Knuth books ("Art of Computer Programming") could help?

Can you point out a few examples?

> Where e.g. is 'fulltext hash' or 'fulltext search' implemented in Magma, e.t.c.?

What does Magma have to do with Pharo in this context? Where did you read
that Magma has full text search? (Btw if you have a data structure that
has full text search capabilities then voila, Magma has full text search.)

> Whole world works with fulltext databases (Google, MySQL, PostgreSQL, even
> MSSQL, Oracle). Thats 'state of the art'!!!!!!!! Search in TB databases
> in milliseconds!

If you need an RDBMS then use one, there are several drivers available.


Levente

>
> so far my 0.0199999999˙˙
>
>Keep up the good work on Pharo, it's still a long way to go!
>
>regards, Guido Stepken
>--
_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Levente,

I have to call you out on something: SSL is **definitely** not crap, and we should have a clean interface to it, probably via OpenSSL.  I will eventually create same if not beaten to it.

CORBA is also not crap.  To be blunt, none of the listed technologies are crap if one has an externally defined problem (aka something that pay$ the bill$) that requires communicating with something that uses them.  I will grant you that most of them have a pretty high crap coefficient, and I would not go out of my way to use them unless "forced" to do so.

Bill




-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Levente Uzonyi
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 5:45 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Developer guide ... ?

On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Guido Stepken wrote:

[snip]

As others pointed out, these are implemented with blocks. What would you do if, say you wanted to know how to do threading in java? Reading a book or googling is helpful:
- http://www.google.com/search?q=squeak+threads
(I guess a chapter on processes would be useful in PBE/SBE.)

> 5. Standards: XML-RPC, SOAP, RMI, CORBA, .... encryption (SSL) ...
> Without having a precise idea, where to find working examples to
> exchance data with other systems, i would hesitate to begin to do projects with Pharo/Squeak...

Some of this crap is available at squeaksource/squeakmap.

Levente


_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

On 2009-12-30, at 12:15 PM, Guido Stepken wrote:

> 7. Speed, Memory consumption,

For a fee I'm always available to do memory consumption tuning, keeping in mind memory consumption is:

(a)  A result of how the algorithms consume/use memory.
(b) The behavior of how the Garbage Collector deals with the garbage in real time.

Most programmers can figure out (a), on the other hand (b) can be a very complex task.

--
===========================================================================
John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]>   Twitter:  squeaker68882
Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
===========================================================================





_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

> Levente,
>
> I have to call you out on something: SSL is **definitely** not crap, and we should have a clean interface to it, probably via OpenSSL.  I will eventually create same if not beaten to it.

That's true, I was thinking about the rpc stuff.

>
> CORBA is also not crap.  To be blunt, none of the listed technologies are crap if one has an externally defined problem (aka something that pay$ the bill$) that requires communicating with something that uses them.  I will grant you that most of them have a pretty high crap coefficient, and I would not go out of my way to use them unless "forced" to do so.
>

Crap may not be the best word (but fits really well IMO),
so overcomplicated bloatware.


Levente

_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Guido Stepken <gstepken@...> writes:

> Perhaps Donald Knuth books ("Art of Computer Programming") could help? Where
> e.g. is 'fulltext hash' or 'fulltext search' implemented in Magma, e.t.c.?
> Whole world works with fulltext databases (Google, MySQL, PostgreSQL, even
> MSSQL, Oracle). Thats 'state of the art'!!!!!!!! Search in TB databases in
> milliseconds!

Given Knuth's current speed, he'll approximately gonna cover information
 retrieval when the Enterprise meets the Klingons.

Jokes aside, I implemented a state-of-the-art fulltext search for my master's
 thesis. It is implemented in VW but should be portable to Squeak. Maintenance
 of the project has been transfered to the Moose project, so please refer to
 http://www.moosetechnology.org/tools/vw/hapax for more information.

--AA






_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Levente,

I'll give you a pass on RPC, on SOAP for sure, and _almost_ on CORBA :)  However, a culture of dismissing important things as crap lead us to a point approaching 15 years into Squeak's existence where it does not have ready access to SSL.  I know about stunnel, but that is more cheat than fix.  Pharo needs to embrace the worthy or we will still be on the fringe 15 years from now, and that would be tragic.

Bill




-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Levente Uzonyi
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:14 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Developer guide ... ?

On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

> Levente,
>
> I have to call you out on something: SSL is **definitely** not crap, and we should have a clean interface to it, probably via OpenSSL.  I will eventually create same if not beaten to it.

That's true, I was thinking about the rpc stuff.

>
> CORBA is also not crap.  To be blunt, none of the listed technologies are crap if one has an externally defined problem (aka something that pay$ the bill$) that requires communicating with something that uses them.  I will grant you that most of them have a pretty high crap coefficient, and I would not go out of my way to use them unless "forced" to do so.
>

Crap may not be the best word (but fits really well IMO), so overcomplicated bloatware.


Levente

_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

> Levente,
>
> I'll give you a pass on RPC, on SOAP for sure, and _almost_ on CORBA :)  However, a culture of dismissing important things as crap lead us to a point approaching 15 years into Squeak's existence where it does not have ready access to SSL.  I know about stunnel, but that is more cheat than fix.  Pharo needs to embrace the worthy or we will still be on the fringe 15 years from now, and that would be tragic.

There's an SSL implementation in the Cryptography package, though I don't
know if it works or not.
If CORBA is so important then why doesn't exist a free smalltalk
implementation after 18 years?


Levente

_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

On 2009-12-30, at 4:54 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

> Levente,
>
> I'll give you a pass on RPC, on SOAP for sure, and _almost_ on CORBA :)  However, a culture of dismissing important things as crap lead us to a point approaching 15 years into Squeak's existence where it does not have ready access to SSL.  I know about stunnel, but that is more cheat than fix.  Pharo needs to embrace the worthy or we will still be on the fringe 15 years from now, and that would be tragic.
>
> Bill

Well someone needs to sit for a week(s) (an oversimplification?) and write the OpenSSL FFI interface.

You have funding for that?

--
===========================================================================
John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]>   Twitter:  squeaker68882
Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
===========================================================================





_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Bill,

I think you nailed it precisely!  Although all 'systems' working in Pharo will not be enough if we cannot connect and integrate with the leading technologies that we cannot afford to displace/emulate/write in Pharo smalltalk.

--
Cesar Rabak
 
 

Em 30/12/2009 22:54, Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]> escreveu:


Levente,

I'll give you a pass on RPC, on SOAP for sure, and _almost_ on CORBA :)  However, a culture of dismissing important things as crap lead us to a point approaching 15 years into Squeak's existence where it does not have ready access to SSL.  I know about stunnel, but that is more cheat than fix.  Pharo needs to embrace the worthy or we will still be on the fringe 15 years from now, and that would be tragic.

Bill

_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

You're twisting what I said; I did not put CORBA at the top, I simply acknowledged that it has some value.  SSL is useful to the point that I find NO excuse for its not having been wrapped long ago by Sqeuak.  The cryptography team _insisted_ on building their own stack vs. using OpenSSL.  They managed it; then they burned out.  If I have the facts wrong and am missing code, please tell me.

Bill



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Levente Uzonyi
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 8:16 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Developer guide ... ?

On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

> Levente,
>
> I'll give you a pass on RPC, on SOAP for sure, and _almost_ on CORBA :)  However, a culture of dismissing important things as crap lead us to a point approaching 15 years into Squeak's existence where it does not have ready access to SSL.  I know about stunnel, but that is more cheat than fix.  Pharo needs to embrace the worthy or we will still be on the fringe 15 years from now, and that would be tragic.

There's an SSL implementation in the Cryptography package, though I don't know if it works or not.
If CORBA is so important then why doesn't exist a free smalltalk implementation after 18 years?


Levente

_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

I can barely afford not to do it, but it will happen on my own schedule.  I will probably also base it on OS threads to achieve non-blocking operation w/o all the BIO* insanity.

Bill



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of John M McIntosh
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 8:49 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Developer guide ... ?


On 2009-12-30, at 4:54 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

> Levente,
>
> I'll give you a pass on RPC, on SOAP for sure, and _almost_ on CORBA :)  However, a culture of dismissing important things as crap lead us to a point approaching 15 years into Squeak's existence where it does not have ready access to SSL.  I know about stunnel, but that is more cheat than fix.  Pharo needs to embrace the worthy or we will still be on the fringe 15 years from now, and that would be tragic.
>
> Bill

Well someone needs to sit for a week(s) (an oversimplification?) and write the OpenSSL FFI interface.

You have funding for that?

--
===========================================================================
John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]>   Twitter:  squeaker68882
Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
===========================================================================





_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Cesar,

Sometimes rewriting is exactly the right thing to do.  For example, Object Arts wrapped the Microsoft XML library.  First, there is the question of untrusted input and MS binaries (yikes!!!), but also, any time bad input went into it, it would fire off an error with no indication of where it got into trouble.  For some reason, MS did not think to take an IStream pointer that would have allowed one to check the position.

For an http client, OA again wrapped MS binaries, complete with the typical punishing timeouts under MS control, and being hobbled if IE had been set (or set itself) to work offline.

Dolphin is a wonderful product, but users would have been better served with home-grown code in those cases.

Bottom line: I think we should rewrite when it makes sense to do so, and wrap just about anything that makes sense for interoperability.  Clearly there is a lot to wrap, and priorities must be set, as it will often fall on an individual to do the dirty work.  SSL is a no-brainer.

Bill


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 8:59 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Developer guide ... ?

Bill,

I think you nailed it precisely!  Although all 'systems' working in Pharo will not be enough if we cannot connect and integrate with the leading technologies that we cannot afford to displace/emulate/write in Pharo smalltalk.

--
Cesar Rabak
 
 

Em 30/12/2009 22:54, Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]> escreveu:


Levente,

I'll give you a pass on RPC, on SOAP for sure, and _almost_ on CORBA :)  However, a culture of dismissing important things as crap lead us to a point approaching 15 years into Squeak's existence where it does not have ready access to SSL.  I know about stunnel, but that is more cheat than fix.  Pharo needs to embrace the worthy or we will still be on the fringe 15 years from now, and that would be tragic.

Bill

_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

2009/12/31 Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]>:
> Cesar,
>
> Sometimes rewriting is exactly the right thing to do.  For example, Object Arts wrapped the Microsoft XML library.  First, there is the question of untrusted input and MS binaries (yikes!!!), but also, any time bad input went into it, it would fire off an error with no indication of where it got into trouble.  For some reason, MS did not think to take an IStream pointer that would have allowed one to check the position.
>
> For an http client, OA again wrapped MS binaries, complete with the typical punishing timeouts under MS control, and being hobbled if IE had been set (or set itself) to work offline.
>
I really , see no reason why one would want to wrap such things
around. They are so basic, so easy to implement by yourself and not
being dependent on crap which comes from MS.

> Dolphin is a wonderful product, but users would have been better served with home-grown code in those cases.
>
> Bottom line: I think we should rewrite when it makes sense to do so, and wrap just about anything that makes sense for interoperability.  Clearly there is a lot to wrap, and priorities must be set, as it will often fall on an individual to do the dirty work.  SSL is a no-brainer.
>

Why keep bugging about missing bindings to foo/bar? If you would
really need them, you would already implement them by yourself.
Event if you are not skilled enough to deal with FFI/primitives stuff,
there are a lot of people who do , and can help you with that. Just
ask.

> Bill
>



--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project