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Drastically improving the messageNotUnderstood title

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stepharong

Drastically improving the messageNotUnderstood title

Hi guys

As I exposed newbies to our wonderfull debugger I think that we should
change

MessageNotUnderstood: Class>>#message

into

an instance of Class did not understand message

To me this simple change would have a HUGE impact on making the debugger
first contact a lot more friendly.

Any taker?
I'm off with a company today.

Stef

--

Denis Kudriashov

Re: Drastically improving the messageNotUnderstood title

Done: 19441.

I also change nil case to "message was send to nil" (instead of "receiver of message is nil"). You can correct it as you wish :)

2016-12-07 21:44 GMT+01:00 stepharong <[hidden email]>:

Hi guys

As I exposed newbies to our wonderfull debugger I think that we should
change

MessageNotUnderstood: Class>>#message

into

an instance of Class did not understand message

To me this simple change would have a HUGE impact on making the debugger
first contact a lot more friendly.

Any taker?
I'm off with a company today.

Stef

--

Ben Coman

Re: Drastically improving the messageNotUnderstood title

On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 5:54 AM, Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Done: 19441.
>
> I also change nil case to "message was send to nil" (instead of "receiver of
> message is nil"). You can correct it as you wish :)

send==>sent

>
> 2016-12-07 21:44 GMT+01:00 stepharong <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> Hi guys
>>
>> As I exposed newbies to our wonderfull debugger I think that we should
>> change
>>
>> MessageNotUnderstood: Class>>#message
>>
>> into
>>
>> an instance of Class did not understand message

Perhaps(?) a short form can be put in brackets?
==> an instance of Class did not understand #message sent to it (MNU
Class>>#message)

cheers -ben

>>
>> To me this simple change would have a HUGE impact on making the debugger
>> first contact a lot more friendly.

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

Re: Drastically improving the messageNotUnderstood title

> On 8 Dec 2016, at 00:42, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 5:54 AM, Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Done: 19441.
>>
>> I also change nil case to "message was send to nil" (instead of "receiver of
>> message is nil"). You can correct it as you wish :)
>
> send==>sent
>
>>
>> 2016-12-07 21:44 GMT+01:00 stepharong <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>> Hi guys
>>>
>>> As I exposed newbies to our wonderfull debugger I think that we should
>>> change
>>>
>>> MessageNotUnderstood: Class>>#message
>>>
>>> into
>>>
>>> an instance of Class did not understand message
>
> Perhaps(?) a short form can be put in brackets?
> ==> an instance of Class did not understand #message sent to it (MNU
> Class>>#message)

+1

> cheers -ben
>
>>>
>>> To me this simple change would have a HUGE impact on making the debugger
>>> first contact a lot more friendly.

Denis Kudriashov

Re: Drastically improving the messageNotUnderstood title

In reply to this post by Ben Coman

2016-12-08 0:42 GMT+01:00 Ben Coman <[hidden email]>:

> message is nil"). You can correct it as you wish :)

send==>sent

Yes. Slice uses correct word

philippeback

Re: Drastically improving the messageNotUnderstood title

In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

What if the method is on class side?

Phil

On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 7:35 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 8 Dec 2016, at 00:42, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 5:54 AM, Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Done: 19441.
>>
>> I also change nil case to "message was send to nil" (instead of "receiver of
>> message is nil"). You can correct it as you wish :)
>
> send==>sent
>
>>
>> 2016-12-07 21:44 GMT+01:00 stepharong <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>> Hi guys
>>>
>>> As I exposed newbies to our wonderfull debugger I think that we should
>>> change
>>>
>>> MessageNotUnderstood: Class>>#message
>>>
>>> into
>>>
>>> an instance of Class did not understand message
>
> Perhaps(?) a short form can be put in brackets?
> ==> an instance of Class did not understand #message sent to it (MNU
> Class>>#message)

+1

> cheers -ben
>
>>>
>>> To me this simple change would have a HUGE impact on making the debugger
>>> first contact a lot more friendly.

Denis Kudriashov

Re: Drastically improving the messageNotUnderstood title

2016-12-08 10:59 GMT+01:00 [hidden email] <[hidden email]>:

What if the method is on class side?

Good question. It will be

an instance of MyClass class did not understand #message

which of course not so good. What you suggest?

philippeback

Re: Drastically improving the messageNotUnderstood title

MyClass did not understand #message

Phil

On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 11:24 AM, Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]> wrote:

2016-12-08 10:59 GMT+01:00 [hidden email] <[hidden email]>:
What if the method is on class side?

Good question. It will be
an instance of MyClass class did not understand #message
which of course not so good. What you suggest?

kilon.alios

Re: Drastically improving the messageNotUnderstood title

I think

Message does not exist

Makes more sense, I always found the use of the word understood kinda weird

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 at 10:38, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

MyClass did not understand #message

Phil

On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 11:24 AM, Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]> wrote:

2016-12-08 10:59 GMT+01:00 [hidden email] <[hidden email]>:
What if the method is on class side?

Good question. It will be
an instance of MyClass class did not understand #message
which of course not so good. What you suggest?

Aliaksei Syrel

Re: Drastically improving the messageNotUnderstood title

"Message(method) does not exist" happens in C/Java/etc when we call a method.

"Message not understood by an object" happens in Smalltalk/Ruby when we send a message.

I like this conceptual distinguishment between calling a method and sending a message.

Cheers,

Alex

kilon.alios

Re: Drastically improving the messageNotUnderstood title

First of all you will never see the word message mentioned in those languages you mentioned
Second the word , understood, says nothing about the nature of the problem to a beginner

Is it that the method does not exist ?
Or is it that method exists but message does not ?
Or is it that the method does something it should not ?
Or is the VM that has problem executing the method ?

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 at 11:27, Aliaksei Syrel <[hidden email]> wrote:

"Message(method) does not exist" happens in C/Java/etc when we call a method.
"Message not understood by an object" happens in Smalltalk/Ruby when we send a message.

I like this conceptual distinguishment between calling a method and sending a message.

Cheers,
Alex

Aliaksei Syrel

Re: Drastically improving the messageNotUnderstood title

The fact that method does not exist does not necessarily mean that object does not understand a message ;)

First of all you will never see the word message mentioned in those languages you mentioned

Indeed in C/Java/etc there is no such word message, that is why you can find word "method" in parentheses to the right from word "message" (actually second word in first sentence).

In case of two other mentioned languages Smalltalk/Ruby word "message" is common. Do you agree that it is the case in Smalltalk? ;)

For the Ruby I would like to refer to official documentation, especially method_missing hook (analogue of doesNotUnderstand: in Pharo).

https://ruby-doc.org/core-2.1.0/BasicObject.html#method-i-method_missing (first sentence)

Invoked by Ruby when obj is sent a message it cannot handle.

Cheers,

Alex

On 8 December 2016 at 12:34, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote:

First of all you will never see the word message mentioned in those languages you mentioned
Second the word , understood, says nothing about the nature of the problem to a beginner

Is it that the method does not exist ?
Or is it that method exists but message does not ?
Or is it that the method does something it should not ?
Or is the VM that has problem executing the method ?

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 at 11:27, Aliaksei Syrel <[hidden email]> wrote:
"Message(method) does not exist" happens in C/Java/etc when we call a method.
"Message not understood by an object" happens in Smalltalk/Ruby when we send a message.

I like this conceptual distinguishment between calling a method and sending a message.

Cheers,
Alex

philippeback

Re: Drastically improving the messageNotUnderstood title

In reply to this post by kilon.alios

This is because you have been shaped by those other languages.

Message is not Operation which is not Method.

There are lots of mechnisms that are based on hooking in the #DNU mechanism.

That's a key feature of Pharo, so, trying to hide that fact is not helping.

#DNU is "cannot make sense of what you are asking me to do, Dave".

Phil

On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 12:34 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote:

First of all you will never see the word message mentioned in those languages you mentioned
Second the word , understood, says nothing about the nature of the problem to a beginner

Is it that the method does not exist ?
Or is it that method exists but message does not ?
Or is it that the method does something it should not ?
Or is the VM that has problem executing the method ?

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 at 11:27, Aliaksei Syrel <[hidden email]> wrote:
"Message(method) does not exist" happens in C/Java/etc when we call a method.
"Message not understood by an object" happens in Smalltalk/Ruby when we send a message.

I like this conceptual distinguishment between calling a method and sending a message.

Cheers,
Alex

Denis Kudriashov

Re: Drastically improving the messageNotUnderstood title

In reply to this post by kilon.alios

2016-12-08 12:14 GMT+01:00 Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]>:

I think

Message does not exist

It is not correct because in fact message exits and it is here in argument of #doesNotUnderstood: and it is shown in degugger.

philippeback

Re: Drastically improving the messageNotUnderstood title

Kilon,

Check the MessageSend class and its users.

There are a lot of interesting things one can do there.

Phil

On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 1:29 PM, Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]> wrote:

2016-12-08 12:14 GMT+01:00 Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]>:
I think

Message does not exist

It is not correct because in fact message exits and it is here in argument of #doesNotUnderstood: and it is shown in degugger.

Nicolas Cellier

Re: Drastically improving the messageNotUnderstood title

In reply to this post by Denis Kudriashov

2016-12-08 13:29 GMT+01:00 Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]>:

2016-12-08 12:14 GMT+01:00 Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]>:
I think

Message does not exist

It is not correct because in fact message exits and it is here in argument of #doesNotUnderstood: and it is shown in degugger.

Executing a method (CompiledMethod) is how an object would react when receiving a message.

Who is sending the message has (should have) no idea of which method exactly will be executed, or it least shouldn't have to care about it.
It's encapsulated/delegated/private/you name it, IOW it's the responsibility of the object we sent the message to.

So in Smalltalk we have to think in term of message, not method.

DNU happens when the method lookup failed. I fail to see what is not crystal clear?

Eliot Miranda-2

Re: Drastically improving the messageNotUnderstood title

In reply to this post by kilon.alios

On Dec 8, 2016, at 3:14 AM, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think

Message does not exist

Makes more sense, I always found the use of the word understood kinda weird

But messages that do exist can be not understood. For example Array new add: 1. The exists wording is wrong and misleading.

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 at 10:38, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
MyClass did not understand #message

Phil

On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 11:24 AM, Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]> wrote:

2016-12-08 10:59 GMT+01:00 [hidden email] <[hidden email]>:
What if the method is on class side?

Good question. It will be
an instance of MyClass class did not understand #message
which of course not so good. What you suggest?

Ben Coman

Re: Drastically improving the messageNotUnderstood title

In reply to this post by philippeback

cheers -ben

On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 5:59 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
> What if the method is on class side?

Good point. Thus...
'class-side of AClass did not understand #message sent to it (MNU AClass-class>>#message)'

On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think

Message does not exist

Makes more sense, I always found the use of the word understood kinda weird

> Phil
>
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 7:35 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> > On 8 Dec 2016, at 00:42, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> > On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 5:54 AM, Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >> Done: 19441.
>> >>
>> >> I also change nil case to "message was send to nil" (instead of
>> >> "receiver of
>> >> message is nil"). You can correct it as you wish :)
>> >
>> > send==>sent
>> >
>> >>
>> >> 2016-12-07 21:44 GMT+01:00 stepharong <[hidden email]>:
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi guys
>> >>>
>> >>> As I exposed newbies to our wonderfull debugger I think that we should
>> >>> change
>> >>>
>> >>> MessageNotUnderstood: Class>>#message
>> >>>
>> >>> into
>> >>>
>> >>> an instance of Class did not understand message
>> >
>> > Perhaps(?) a short form can be put in brackets?
>> > ==> an instance of Class did not understand #message sent to it (MNU
>> > Class>>#message)
>>
>> +1
>>
>> > cheers -ben
>> >
>> >>>
>> >>> To me this simple change would have a HUGE impact on making the
>> >>> debugger
>> >>> first contact a lot more friendly.
>>
>>
>

Ben Coman

Re: Drastically improving the messageNotUnderstood title

In reply to this post by kilon.alios

On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think

Message does not exist

Makes more sense, I always found the use of the word understood kinda weird

I always liked the term 'understand'. I think such anthropomorphism helps give the system its feeling of liveness, and changed the way I thought about programming.

cheers -ben

EstebanLM

Re: Drastically improving the messageNotUnderstood title

On 8 Dec 2016, at 16:44, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think

Message does not exist

Makes more sense, I always found the use of the word understood kinda weird

I always liked the term 'understand'. I think such anthropomorphism helps give the system its feeling of liveness, and changed the way I thought about programming.

+42

also “does not understand” puts the accent where it belongs: is a message *send* that is not part of object vocabulary…

Esteban

cheers -ben