ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium

>
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 15:57:28 +0200
> Von: Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]>
> An: ESUG Mailing list <[hidden email]>
> Betreff: [Esug-list] Fwd: ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium
>
> Let's make it clear..
>
> A project X, which is a smalltalk-based project bootstrapping a consortium
> and
> inviting all organizations/individuals who want to participate.
>
> Question 1: what is a logical reaction from ESUG should be, which
> mission is to support and popularize smalltalk?
>
>
> My understanding of the situation is that the question isn't "if", the
> question is "how". I haven't seen anyone saying anything about ESUG not
> supporting Pharo. The question that was asked is: "Should ESUG join the
> Pharo consortium and pay a perpetual fee of EUR XXXX per year"?
>

>
> On 2012-Jul-6, at 10:48 , Thorsten Seitz wrote:
>
>> Am 06.07.2012 um 16:36 schrieb James Robertson:
>>
>>> Personally, I'd like to thank the ESUG board in general, and Stef in particular, for all of the work they put into promoting Smalltalk.  I have a pretty good idea as to how thankless a job that often is, and I for one appreciate all of their efforts!
>>
>> Well said and I wholeheartedly agree!
>
> Me too!
>
> ../Dave
>
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

>On 2012-Jul-6, at 10:48 , Thorsten Seitz wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Am 06.07.2012 um 16:36 schrieb James Robertson:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Personally, I'd like to thank the ESUG board in general, and Stef in particular, for all of the work they put into promoting Smalltalk.  I have a pretty good idea as to how thankless a job that often is, and I for one appreciate all of their efforts!
>>>      
>>>
>>Well said and I wholeheartedly agree!
>>    
>>
>
>Me too!
>
>../Dave
>  
>

>
> Steve,
>
> I do not agree with you on all points. The fact that they (Stef) managed to convince INRIA to keep on spending about 200k€ year on Smalltalk must take them a huge effort. So the frustration is very much understandable. Critisizing is easy selling ideas however is about the most difficult thing to do, we all know that !
>
> If you are looking for problems you invite the juridical guys we all know that too !! (and for 3000€  stop stop stop !!)
>
> Besides maybe leaving my app as a free dwonload I do absolutely nothing for the community so what can I do else then just admire these guys !!!
>
> Even for us as VW users the Pharo principles are really cool and I only hope they find their way to our phones and desktops the sooner the better !
>
> Regards,
>
> @+Maarten,
>
>
>
> > Message du 06/07/12 09:00
> > De : "Steven Kelly"
> > A : [hidden email]
> > Copie à :
> > Objet : Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium
> >
> > Hi Stef,
> >
> > You seem angry. Let's try to keep things civil and calm, even if we have different opinions.
> >
> > > This is fun nobody ever told us anything when the complete board was
> > > programming in VW. And nobody told us anything when the complete board
> > > was using Squeak. Strange no. And ESUG even manage money for the squeak
> > > foundation.
> >
> > I think in some cases the reason is simply that we didn't know, or we weren't asked. If VW is the flagship Smalltalk as you said, it's not that surprising if sometimes the board has lots of VW users. But if the board was led by a Cincom manager, had top figures from within Cincom, and suggested paying 2000 EUR per year to Cincom "to foster business around VW and to promote VW", I think you would have some questions.
> >
> > >> The case for VW is easy you should give it in person to Holger
> > >> Kleinsorgen for having written the Windows 7 Look and feel !!
> > >
> > > I would be really curious to see if cincom wants this kind of press
> > > and marketing. It would be really funny.
> > > VisualWorks the Smalltalk flagship sponsored by a free association
> > > to develop better product. I'm not sure that it will make laugh
> > > a lot of people but at least I would laugh a lot.
> >
> > Holger isn't a Cincom employee. His code is released for free to the Smalltalk community. Why would it be ridiculous to give a VW user 100-150€ once? That sounds like just the kind of project that ESUG has funded in the past.
> >
> > Personally I'm happiest with ESUG sponsorship going to individual Smalltalk users of any dialect, for projects that benefit other Smalltalkers. I'm happy to consider a project on the core of any particular dialect on its merits. But a large, repeating, non-earmarked sum of money to one dialect is something I am unlikely to support.
> >
> > Please, for the sake of both ESUG and Pharo, talk to the INRIA lawyers about this. IANAL, but I think you'd be risking your reputation and that of ESUG and Pharo, by being one of 3 Pharo board members, asking for money no strings attached, and then agreeing to that as the President of ESUG.
> >
> > If the lawyers are happy and the board decides to do this, that's fine by me, I just want to make sure.
> >
> > All the best,
> > Steve
> >
> > > On Jul 5, 2012, at 10:35 AM, Steven Kelly wrote:
> > >
> > > > Since I didn't really see an answer to Michael Haupt's question,
> > > about what is the main Smalltalk dialect of the board members, I did a
> > > quick Google on their home pages, looking there or on CVs for which
> > > Smalltalk is mentioned. Obviously this is not an accurate method, and
> > > I'd much rather the board members answered the question - please,
> > > please don't get annoyed because Google says this, just tell us what
> > > the real situation is. But for what little it's worth:
> > > >
> > > >> here are the members of the ESUG's board:
> > > >>
> > > >> President: Stéphane Ducasse > > >> Treasurer: Luc Fabresse > > >> Damien Cassou > > >> Jordi Delgado > > >> Marcus Denker > > >> Alain Plantec > > >> Serge Stinckwich > > Smalltalk names to the search terms shows several, with Pharo giving
> > > most hits
> > > >
> > > > If that's the impression a casual web browse gives, then even if it
> > > is totally and utterly incorrect, hopefully the board can understand
> > > why it seems reasonable to members who don't know all the details to
> > > mention potential conflicts of interest.
> > > >
> > > > So, what does it mean that if so many on the board have a Pharo link?
> > > First, it's brilliant that these people are active in doing something
> > > for a Smalltalk, as well as their great work in ESUG. Second, it's
> > > brilliant that Pharo people are active in wider promotion of Smalltalk
> > > in general. And third, it's going to be rather difficult to have a
> > > sensible vote on the board, and discussions on the members email list
> > > may be a little tense :).
> > > >
> > > > No worries from me, though. I think it's great what ESUG are doing,
> > > and great what Pharo is doing. Personally I'd rather not have ESUG
> > > sponsor Pharo, but that's just one person's opinion, and hopefully
> > > nobody gets upset about it.
> > > >
> > > > Go Smalltalk!
> > > > Steve
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Esug-list mailing list
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

> Hi Andreas
>
> On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Andreas Raab <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Here is how it is unfair: If I understand the basic process of selecting and
>> supporting projects by ESUG, then the distribution of projects supported by
>> ESUG is roughly equivalent to the popularity of the various communities.
>> This seems entirely fair and reasonable to me, and ESUG is doing a good job
>> with the various projects it supports.
>>
>> However, once ESUG starts giving chunks of money to particular dialects
>> directly, then first of all that money is no longer spent across the various
>> dialects.
>
>
> I would agree with you if ESUG was spending 100% of the money it has.
> Sponsoring Pharo won't affect other potential sponsoring (unless we
> get 5 times more sponsoring requests than last year in which case we
> might not positively answer to all of them). I invite all
> representatives of other dialects to send the board sponsoring
> requests. But we can't wait for all dialects to ask for money before
> spending part of it.
>
>
>> So for an approx. 3000 EUR Pharo membership the board could
>> sponsor 20 students with 150 EUR each. And while it may be that 15 of those
>> are indeed Pharo related, there is still sponsorshop done for the remaining
>> 5 which would fall under the table if the money went directly to Pharo.
>> That's seems obviously unfair.
>
>
> Please encourage students around you to submit sponsoring requests. We
> will be really happy to support them.
>
>
>> Secondly, the membership in Pharo is perpetual; if some other project raises
>> in popularity there will *still* 100% of the money be going to Pharo. For
>> eternity. That's just as unfair.
>
>
> I agree with you, a permanent sponsorship is probably not the best
> idea and we should discuss the options. Still, we are not talking
> about 100% of the money.
>
>
>> There is nothing wrong with sponsoring Pharo projects by ESUG. What's wrong
>> is giving the money, which would otherwise be spent in some relation to the
>> popularity of each dialect, to one dialect only.
>
>
> In the past, ESUG supported Squeak e.V. and the Squeak VM. What is the
> difference?
>
> --
> Damien Cassou
> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
>
> "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
> popular by not having them." James Iry
>
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

> Simply thanks.
>
> And not counting the amount of hours organizing ESUG (I even payed all the registrations to the conferences I organized)!!!!
> Silly me.
>
> Stef
>
>
>>
>> Steve,
>>
>> I do not agree with you on all points. The fact that they (Stef) managed to convince INRIA to keep on spending about 200k€ year on Smalltalk must take them a huge effort. So the frustration is very much understandable. Critisizing is easy selling ideas however is about the most difficult thing to do, we all know that !
>>
>> If you are looking for problems you invite the juridical guys we all know that too !! (and for 3000€  stop stop stop !!)
>>
>> Besides maybe leaving my app as a free dwonload I do absolutely nothing for the community so what can I do else then just admire these guys !!!
>>
>> Even for us as VW users the Pharo principles are really cool and I only hope they find their way to our phones and desktops the sooner the better !
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> @+Maarten,
>>
>>
>>
>>> Message du 06/07/12 09:00
>>> De : "Steven Kelly"
>>> A : [hidden email]
>>> Copie à :
>>> Objet : Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium
>>>
>>> Hi Stef,
>>>
>>> You seem angry. Let's try to keep things civil and calm, even if we have different opinions.
>>>
>>>> This is fun nobody ever told us anything when the complete board was
>>>> programming in VW. And nobody told us anything when the complete board
>>>> was using Squeak. Strange no. And ESUG even manage money for the squeak
>>>> foundation.
>>>
>>> I think in some cases the reason is simply that we didn't know, or we weren't asked. If VW is the flagship Smalltalk as you said, it's not that surprising if sometimes the board has lots of VW users. But if the board was led by a Cincom manager, had top figures from within Cincom, and suggested paying 2000 EUR per year to Cincom "to foster business around VW and to promote VW", I think you would have some questions.
>>>
>>>>> The case for VW is easy you should give it in person to Holger
>>>>> Kleinsorgen for having written the Windows 7 Look and feel !!
>>>>
>>>> I would be really curious to see if cincom wants this kind of press
>>>> and marketing. It would be really funny.
>>>> VisualWorks the Smalltalk flagship sponsored by a free association
>>>> to develop better product. I'm not sure that it will make laugh
>>>> a lot of people but at least I would laugh a lot.
>>>
>>> Holger isn't a Cincom employee. His code is released for free to the Smalltalk community. Why would it be ridiculous to give a VW user 100-150€ once? That sounds like just the kind of project that ESUG has funded in the past.
>>>
>>> Personally I'm happiest with ESUG sponsorship going to individual Smalltalk users of any dialect, for projects that benefit other Smalltalkers. I'm happy to consider a project on the core of any particular dialect on its merits. But a large, repeating, non-earmarked sum of money to one dialect is something I am unlikely to support.
>>>
>>> Please, for the sake of both ESUG and Pharo, talk to the INRIA lawyers about this. IANAL, but I think you'd be risking your reputation and that of ESUG and Pharo, by being one of 3 Pharo board members, asking for money no strings attached, and then agreeing to that as the President of ESUG.
>>>
>>> If the lawyers are happy and the board decides to do this, that's fine by me, I just want to make sure.
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>> On Jul 5, 2012, at 10:35 AM, Steven Kelly wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Since I didn't really see an answer to Michael Haupt's question,
>>>> about what is the main Smalltalk dialect of the board members, I did a
>>>> quick Google on their home pages, looking there or on CVs for which
>>>> Smalltalk is mentioned. Obviously this is not an accurate method, and
>>>> I'd much rather the board members answered the question - please,
>>>> please don't get annoyed because Google says this, just tell us what
>>>> the real situation is. But for what little it's worth:
>>>>>
>>>>>> here are the members of the ESUG's board:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> President: Stéphane Ducasse>  >  >>  Treasurer: Luc Fabresse>  >  >>  Damien Cassou>  >  >>  Jordi Delgado>  >  >>  Marcus Denker>  >  >>  Alain Plantec>  >  >>  Serge Stinckwich>  >  Smalltalk names to the search terms shows several, with Pharo giving
>>>> most hits
>>>>>
>>>>> If that's the impression a casual web browse gives, then even if it
>>>> is totally and utterly incorrect, hopefully the board can understand
>>>> why it seems reasonable to members who don't know all the details to
>>>> mention potential conflicts of interest.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, what does it mean that if so many on the board have a Pharo link?
>>>> First, it's brilliant that these people are active in doing something
>>>> for a Smalltalk, as well as their great work in ESUG. Second, it's
>>>> brilliant that Pharo people are active in wider promotion of Smalltalk
>>>> in general. And third, it's going to be rather difficult to have a
>>>> sensible vote on the board, and discussions on the members email list
>>>> may be a little tense :).
>>>>>
>>>>> No worries from me, though. I think it's great what ESUG are doing,
>>>> and great what Pharo is doing. Personally I'd rather not have ESUG
>>>> sponsor Pharo, but that's just one person's opinion, and hopefully
>>>> nobody gets upset about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Go Smalltalk!
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Esug-list mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> Esug-list mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

> Stef,
>
> I partly understand your frustration about this dsicussion. But take a step back: how many people said they do not want ESUG to help sponsor the Pharo consortium? If I remember correctly, nobody said it's completely unacceptable.
>
> Most commenters either said they fully support the idea, some expressed doubts about the fact that ESUG joining the Pharo Consortium could water lines that should better be sharp, just to avoid possible problems for either ESUG or the community. People who expressed their worries came up with real arguments, maybe not always expressed in a clear or "neutral" way. I can only see one or two comments which either say "I'd rather not want ESUG to do that" or strictly are negative about the idea.
>
> So I am not sure I see the reason why you and Marcus are so upset about this thread and the fact that doubts/worries were expressed. The way you react to counter-arguments probably keeps some people from joining this thread, most of which might even support the suggested idea per se.
>
> To me the essence of the thread so far is that most people like the idea of ESUG supporting the Pharo Consortium, but some have doubts whether Membership would be better than sponsorship. And the arguments that were brought up make sense.
>
> So we should possibly rather use this thread to find out what ESUG can do to supprt the evolution of Pharo and how it should best do it.
>
> I think it already became obvious that it's neither about the amount of 4K p.a. nor the question if ESUG would lose neutrality (is it even possible?), but only about how to do it without risking that it seems as if ESUG is misused for Pharo's advantage.
>
> Maybe all people really ask for is that ESUG makes it more transparent what it does with money that it uses to sponsor. At least that is my feeling when I skim through some of the comments. And it's probably understandable: would 4000 Euros be more like 100% of the money ESUG donates to Smalltalk efforts (no matter if lectures, books, student volunteers, project sponsorship, whatever) or is it closer to 30%. What is the plan for years in which the conference is a financial desaster, would ESUG still give 4K to Pharo and nothing to anybody else?
>
> I think between the lines people are only asking questions, not accusing you or anybody else of corruption, bad intentions or anything like that. All they want to make sure is that the good work that has been done will continue and bare fruit.
>
> Does it make us a bad community? I don't think so.
> We are a caring community, and some of us do really invest time and emotion into Smalltalk, some by helping ESUG and/or Pharo directly, some by doing something else.
>
>
> Joachim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Am 12.07.12 08:27, schrieb Stéphane Ducasse:
>> Simply thanks.
>>
>> And not counting the amount of hours organizing ESUG (I even payed all the registrations to the conferences I organized)!!!!
>> Silly me.
>>
>> Stef
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Steve,
>>>
>>> I do not agree with you on all points. The fact that they (Stef) managed to convince INRIA to keep on spending about 200k€ year on Smalltalk must take them a huge effort. So the frustration is very much understandable. Critisizing is easy selling ideas however is about the most difficult thing to do, we all know that !
>>>
>>> If you are looking for problems you invite the juridical guys we all know that too !! (and for 3000€  stop stop stop !!)
>>>
>>> Besides maybe leaving my app as a free dwonload I do absolutely nothing for the community so what can I do else then just admire these guys !!!
>>>
>>> Even for us as VW users the Pharo principles are really cool and I only hope they find their way to our phones and desktops the sooner the better !
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> @+Maarten,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Message du 06/07/12 09:00
>>>> De : "Steven Kelly"
>>>> A : [hidden email]
>>>> Copie à :
>>>> Objet : Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium
>>>>
>>>> Hi Stef,
>>>>
>>>> You seem angry. Let's try to keep things civil and calm, even if we have different opinions.
>>>>
>>>>> This is fun nobody ever told us anything when the complete board was
>>>>> programming in VW. And nobody told us anything when the complete board
>>>>> was using Squeak. Strange no. And ESUG even manage money for the squeak
>>>>> foundation.
>>>>
>>>> I think in some cases the reason is simply that we didn't know, or we weren't asked. If VW is the flagship Smalltalk as you said, it's not that surprising if sometimes the board has lots of VW users. But if the board was led by a Cincom manager, had top figures from within Cincom, and suggested paying 2000 EUR per year to Cincom "to foster business around VW and to promote VW", I think you would have some questions.
>>>>
>>>>>> The case for VW is easy you should give it in person to Holger
>>>>>> Kleinsorgen for having written the Windows 7 Look and feel !!
>>>>>
>>>>> I would be really curious to see if cincom wants this kind of press
>>>>> and marketing. It would be really funny.
>>>>> VisualWorks the Smalltalk flagship sponsored by a free association
>>>>> to develop better product. I'm not sure that it will make laugh
>>>>> a lot of people but at least I would laugh a lot.
>>>>
>>>> Holger isn't a Cincom employee. His code is released for free to the Smalltalk community. Why would it be ridiculous to give a VW user 100-150€ once? That sounds like just the kind of project that ESUG has funded in the past.
>>>>
>>>> Personally I'm happiest with ESUG sponsorship going to individual Smalltalk users of any dialect, for projects that benefit other Smalltalkers. I'm happy to consider a project on the core of any particular dialect on its merits. But a large, repeating, non-earmarked sum of money to one dialect is something I am unlikely to support.
>>>>
>>>> Please, for the sake of both ESUG and Pharo, talk to the INRIA lawyers about this. IANAL, but I think you'd be risking your reputation and that of ESUG and Pharo, by being one of 3 Pharo board members, asking for money no strings attached, and then agreeing to that as the President of ESUG.
>>>>
>>>> If the lawyers are happy and the board decides to do this, that's fine by me, I just want to make sure.
>>>>
>>>> All the best,
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 5, 2012, at 10:35 AM, Steven Kelly wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Since I didn't really see an answer to Michael Haupt's question,
>>>>> about what is the main Smalltalk dialect of the board members, I did a
>>>>> quick Google on their home pages, looking there or on CVs for which
>>>>> Smalltalk is mentioned. Obviously this is not an accurate method, and
>>>>> I'd much rather the board members answered the question - please,
>>>>> please don't get annoyed because Google says this, just tell us what
>>>>> the real situation is. But for what little it's worth:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> here are the members of the ESUG's board:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> President: Stéphane Ducasse>  >  >>  Treasurer: Luc Fabresse>  >  >>  Damien Cassou>  >  >>  Jordi Delgado>  >  >>  Marcus Denker>  >  >>  Alain Plantec>  >  >>  Serge Stinckwich>  >  Smalltalk names to the search terms shows several, with Pharo giving
>>>>> most hits
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If that's the impression a casual web browse gives, then even if it
>>>>> is totally and utterly incorrect, hopefully the board can understand
>>>>> why it seems reasonable to members who don't know all the details to
>>>>> mention potential conflicts of interest.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, what does it mean that if so many on the board have a Pharo link?
>>>>> First, it's brilliant that these people are active in doing something
>>>>> for a Smalltalk, as well as their great work in ESUG. Second, it's
>>>>> brilliant that Pharo people are active in wider promotion of Smalltalk
>>>>> in general. And third, it's going to be rather difficult to have a
>>>>> sensible vote on the board, and discussions on the members email list
>>>>> may be a little tense :).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No worries from me, though. I think it's great what ESUG are doing,
>>>>> and great what Pharo is doing. Personally I'd rather not have ESUG
>>>>> sponsor Pharo, but that's just one person's opinion, and hopefully
>>>>> nobody gets upset about it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Go Smalltalk!
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Esug-list mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Esug-list mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Esug-list mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
>
>
> --
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel          mailto:[hidden email]
> Fliederweg 1                         http://www.objektfabrik.de
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