Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher
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Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher
 
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Hi,
With Christoph we did a version of the download page that points users to the “Pharo Launcher” instead of the zips that just contained one vm and the last image. comments welcome… Marcus
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Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher
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On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 1:53 PM, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi, > > With Christoph we did a version of the download page that points users to > the “Pharo Launcher” instead of the zips that just contained one vm and the > last image. > > http://pharo.org/download > > comments welcome… > I am totally in favour of referencing Pharo Launcher in the Pharo download page, but I'm not sure it should totally replace the old page. In my opinion, it would be good to have both. > Marcus -- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr |
Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher
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> On 9 Mar 2018, at 13:58, Cyril Ferlicot <[hidden email]> wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 1:53 PM, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Hi, >> >> With Christoph we did a version of the download page that points users to >> the “Pharo Launcher” instead of the zips that just contained one vm and the >> last image. >> >> http://pharo.org/download >> >> comments welcome… >> > Hi! > I am totally in favour of referencing Pharo Launcher in the Pharo > download page, but I'm not sure it should totally replace the old > page. > In my opinion, it would be good to have both. The problem is that things are getting *very* complex, and every new way to download Pharo makes things even more complex… I really do not know how to structure that page if the launcher is added as yet another way. Marcus |
Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher
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> On 9 Mar 2018, at 14:01, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > >> On 9 Mar 2018, at 13:58, Cyril Ferlicot <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 1:53 PM, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> With Christoph we did a version of the download page that points users to >>> the “Pharo Launcher” instead of the zips that just contained one vm and the >>> last image. >>> >>> http://pharo.org/download >>> >>> comments welcome… >>> >> Hi! >> I am totally in favour of referencing Pharo Launcher in the Pharo >> download page, but I'm not sure it should totally replace the old >> page. >> In my opinion, it would be good to have both. > > The problem is that things are getting *very* complex, and every new way to download Pharo makes things even more complex… > > I really do not know how to structure that page if the launcher is added as yet another way. Of course Linux package I kept (they are in the Linux Package section). What do you miss? The .zip files that have vm+sources+image? I think the launcher replaces the “this is the easiest download” aka the .zip files. For the “single downloads” (point the the last vm, the last image), maybe adding that section back is needed… Marcus |
Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher
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Administrator
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In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4
Marcus Denker-4 wrote
> comments welcome… IHMO the structure is a little confusing because the first heading "Usage" (Launcher implied) is on the same level as other methods like "Linux Packages". I think there needs to be something like a header one level higher like "Other Options" between these two sections. ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
Cheers,
Sean |
Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher
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Additional portable versions would be nice too (based on a simple ZIP) instead of only the installable apps
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Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher
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> On 9 Mar 2018, at 23:34, Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Additional portable versions would be nice too (based on a simple ZIP) instead of only the installable apps > Is there a deeper reason for this? If I look at “other systems”, they manage to have *one* download, *one* way of installing. For me, offering *a lot* of possible different ways means that the user has to choose without knowing why there is even the option to choose… Marcus |
Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher
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In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris
Ok, I will fix that in the next pass.
> On 9 Mar 2018, at 18:10, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Marcus Denker-4 wrote >> comments welcome… > > IHMO the structure is a little confusing because the first heading "Usage" > (Launcher implied) is on the same level as other methods like "Linux > Packages". I think there needs to be something like a header one level > higher like "Other Options" between these two sections. > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html > |
Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher
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In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4
On mer. 14 mars 2018 at 18:18, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:
The problem is that Pharo is different from other systems. When you install eclipse, you'll use the installed eclipse for all your projects for a long time. Pharo images are more like a "disposable". You'll not use the same Pharo image for multiple big projects and you'll more easily throw away an image to take a new one from time to time. Actually I think I download and delete around 5 images/day sometime. This complicate a little things because sometime you want to directly download one image. Sometime you want to have one application to manage your images (Pharo launcher)
Cyril Ferlicot
https://ferlicot.fr |
Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher
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In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4
Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 9 Mar 2018, at 23:34, Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> Additional portable versions would be nice too (based on a simple ZIP) >> instead of only the installable apps >> > > Is there a deeper reason for this? If I look at “other systems”, they > manage to have *one* download, *one* way of installing. > For me, offering *a lot* of possible different ways means that the user > has to choose without knowing why there is even the option to choose… Yes. I want the live usb stick experience Stephan |
Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher
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In reply to this post by CyrilFerlicot
For me, the Launcher should be the “VM Download”, that comes with a) a default template image of the release and b) the launcher too to discover images. *But* it should be done in a way that you can of course just download more images (and I would love to have images actually being “one file”) and, having Pharo installed, you can run them, using the “Pharo” that you have installed (the launcher). The “Launcher” should feel more like “I have installed Pharo, now I can run images”. As such, I think we should add back links that point to single image downloads on the download page. Marcus |
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In reply to this post by CyrilFerlicot
IMO this just strengthen Marcus argument :)
Why? You have launcher: you download all images you want (btw… I still believe launcher UI needs love, but one thing at a time ;) ) And if you need more complex stuff, you always have the “other” section. but I side with Marcus here: we need ONE blessed way of manage pharo, otherwise is an un-managable mess. cheers, Esteban ps: btw, we’ll need also - OBS for the launcher (to have linux packaging) - signing the launcher on mac (we already did this for the VM, we can do the same for launcher). And distribute it as dmg, not zip (a dmg is just a zip renamed so no problem here). - a windows installer pps: we are taking volunteers to tackle this stuff ;) |
Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher
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and I would love support for this: https://sparkle-project.org to keep the “Pharo” app always up-to-date. Marcus |
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dreams, dreams… maybe next year I will have time to do some of this? who knows…
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Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher
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In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4
-> better structure
-> simplified the large print (no need to talk about downloading zip files) TODO: - add back a section about downloading images. > On 14 Mar 2018, at 18:18, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Ok, I will fix that in the next pass. > >> On 9 Mar 2018, at 18:10, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> Marcus Denker-4 wrote >>> comments welcome… >> >> IHMO the structure is a little confusing because the first heading "Usage" >> (Launcher implied) is on the same level as other methods like "Linux >> Packages". I think there needs to be something like a header one level >> higher like "Other Options" between these two sections. >> >> >> >> ----- >> Cheers, >> Sean >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html >> > |
Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher
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I do not see why this is a problem to have the launcher and Pharo.
The launcher is an App and Pharo another. Yesterday the launcher crashed on Windows when I tried to pair program with someone so we downloaded the default Pharo version. Why do we want to make things complex. You want Pharo - donwload it You want to manage your pharo devs and access jenkins and other services - use the launcher. Stef On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 3:38 PM, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote: > -> better structure > -> simplified the large print (no need to talk about downloading zip files) > > TODO: > - add back a section about downloading images. > >> On 14 Mar 2018, at 18:18, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> Ok, I will fix that in the next pass. >> >>> On 9 Mar 2018, at 18:10, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> Marcus Denker-4 wrote >>>> comments welcome… >>> >>> IHMO the structure is a little confusing because the first heading "Usage" >>> (Launcher implied) is on the same level as other methods like "Linux >>> Packages". I think there needs to be something like a header one level >>> higher like "Other Options" between these two sections. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- >>> Cheers, >>> Sean >>> -- >>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html >>> >> > > |
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In reply to this post by EstebanLM
you sign the executable, so it mean signe the VM with another certificate => rebuild the VM
It is already a dmg. Did you try it? ;)
Here also, it is already like that. You forgot to mention: sign Windows app so that Windows Defender does not warn you that it is a malicious software and you should not install it Christophe |
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In reply to this post by Stephane Ducasse-3
but thing is: default download should be the launcher.
because this is the “newbie-friendly” approach. All the rest can be in under a link (or a subtitle, doesn’t matters). Esteban > On 16 Mar 2018, at 08:50, Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote: > > I do not see why this is a problem to have the launcher and Pharo. > The launcher is an App and Pharo another. > Yesterday the launcher crashed on Windows when I tried to pair program > with someone so we downloaded > the default Pharo version. > Why do we want to make things complex. > > You want Pharo > - donwload it > > You want to manage your pharo devs and access jenkins and other services > - use the launcher. > > Stef > > On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 3:38 PM, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote: >> -> better structure >> -> simplified the large print (no need to talk about downloading zip files) >> >> TODO: >> - add back a section about downloading images. >> >>> On 14 Mar 2018, at 18:18, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> Ok, I will fix that in the next pass. >>> >>>> On 9 Mar 2018, at 18:10, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Marcus Denker-4 wrote >>>>> comments welcome… >>>> >>>> IHMO the structure is a little confusing because the first heading "Usage" >>>> (Launcher implied) is on the same level as other methods like "Linux >>>> Packages". I think there needs to be something like a header one level >>>> higher like "Other Options" between these two sections. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- >>>> Cheers, >>>> Sean >>>> -- >>>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html >>>> >>> >> >> > |
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In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4
On 15 March 2018 at 16:01, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm really glad PharoLauncher has been promoted to the download page, but it seems some people want to push PharoLauncher to *be* Pharo. To me this seems a poor strategy. The README file in the PharoLauncher zip downloads says... "Pharo 1.1-2018.01.16 This distribution was built January 16, 2018." This seems strange to me and highly likely to confuse newcomers. Pharo 1.1 more than a few years old. How can something built in 2018 be named "Pharo 1.1" ? And if PharoLauncher is instead published as Pharo 7, then it seems strange to use it to run Pharo 5 images and later Pharo 8 images. Why not have the Downloads page just say "The recommended way to manage Pharo downloads is with PharoLauncher" and allow PharoLauncher to exist as a separate entity. This would be similar similar to those applications where you download an initial 500kB installer, which then grabs the other 100MB from the net to complete the install. Also, when maybe one day we can use Pharo as a command line shell, how will that relate to PharoLauncher being presented "as" Pharo. cheers -ben P.S. Perhaps the idea of App Store has some similarities to PharoLauncher, since in an App Store you search for programs to download and run.
A further evolution of PharoLauncher might become PharoStore Now Apple's app store is not called "OSX" and Microsoft's app store is not called "Windows".
They are separate entities . |
Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher
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Administrator
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Ben Coman wrote
> it seems some people want to push PharoLauncher to *be* Pharo. > To me this seems a poor strategy… This seems strange to me and highly > likely to confuse newcomers. Yes, this was already discussed at length on the ML. The term Pharo already has a meaning: a vm + image containing both an OOP language (is it Smalltalk or Smalltalk inspired? Please don't actually answer that lol) and IDE written therein - or you could call it prototype Dynabook software. If we now try to redefine the above (or really overload, because the former definition will still coexist) to mean an app that manages images, it may just be the final straw to make sure that no one ever will be able to give any acceptable answer in less than 2038 hours to the question: What is Pharo? ;) But just in case we step into the quicksand even further, in this dystopian future you can just copy paste this definition: Pharo is a Pharo app that manages Pharo images, which can be used to make Pharo apps, which can be used to manage Pharo images, [which can be used to make Pharo apps, which can be used to manage Pharo images]* ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
Cheers,
Sean |
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