[ExperimentalCoreRelease] PharoCore-1.0-10508rc2 vs SL3dot11-9499-alpha

Some facts.
PharoCore fresh is Smalltalk size 1747 and 10.8 mb

SL3dot11 isSmalltalk size 1367 and  11.3 mb .

They have Gofer, seems a good thing to have.
Also have Polymorh, sorry don’t buy this one.

In ten minutes can downsize 0.5 mb without any trouble.

SL3dot11 ,my pet could go from 9371 to end of updates, learning some lessons .

Trunk break when you use it and some choose ignore this and pretend all works well.

If you play fair, the most advanced is Pharo, well done and more beautiful.

Edgar

P.S Dedicado a Germán que tenía razón
Arriba Mendieta, el sur tambien existe

On Thu, 11 Mar 2010, Edgar J. De Cleene wrote:
What do you mean? How does it break?

>
> If you play fair, the most advanced is Pharo, well done and more beautiful.

Noone forces you to use Squeak.


Levente

>
> Edgar
>
> P.S Dedicado a Germán que tenía razón
> Arriba Mendieta, el sur tambien existe
>

On Thu, 11 Mar 2010, Edgar J. De Cleene wrote:
What do you mean? How does it break?

>
> If you play fair, the most advanced is Pharo, well done and more beautiful.

Noone forces you to use Squeak.


Levente

>
> Edgar
>
> P.S Dedicado a Germán que tenía razón
> Arriba Mendieta, el sur tambien existe
>

On 11 March 2010 20:53, Edgar J. De Cleene <[hidden email]> wrote:
What is your point, Edgar?

Pharo having substantional improvements in different areas. Everyone knows it.


> Edgar
>
> P.S Dedicado a Germán que tenía razón
> Arriba Mendieta, el sur tambien existe
>


--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

2010/3/11 Edgar J. De Cleene <[hidden email]>:
> Trunk break when you use it and some choose ignore this and pretend all
> works well.
>
> If you play fair, the most advanced is Pharo, well done and more beautiful.

That's a very interesting comment from a person who wants to be in the
Squeak release team. It seems like you prefer Pharo and don't want to
deal with the current process. Are you sure you're working on the
right project for you?

Ian.
--
http://mecenia.blogspot.com/

On 3/11/2010 9:05 PM, Ian Trudel wrote:
Hold on. An assessment of the form "project foo is ahead of us in area
x, y, or z" should not be seen as heretic, but rather as an
encouragement to improve in this area. I'd have to agree that Polymorph
gives Pharo an edge in the looks. In fact I'd hoped that we'd be able to
have a loadable version of Polymorph by now. That this hasn't happened
isn't Edgar's fault. Blaming him that Pharo looks nicer serves no
purpose whatsoever.

Cheers,
   - Andreas

2010/3/12 Andreas Raab <[hidden email]>:
> Hold on. An assessment of the form "project foo is ahead of us in area x, y,
> or z" should not be seen as heretic, but rather as an encouragement to
> improve in this area. I'd have to agree that Polymorph gives Pharo an edge
> in the looks. In fact I'd hoped that we'd be able to have a loadable version
> of Polymorph by now. That this hasn't happened isn't Edgar's fault. Blaming
> him that Pharo looks nicer serves no purpose whatsoever.

I am sorry, Andreas. That's not what I meant. I don't blame Edgar in
any way. I am trying to understand what he is writing. My biggest
concern is about his comment on the trunk since he wants to be part of
the release team. Nobody pretends the trunk is a perfect solution but
it's only logical to assume that he will have to deal with the trunk
unless he (or someone else) comes up with a viable alternative that
people will adopt. There's no conspiracy with the trunk, right? :)

I'm interested to read what Edgar has to write about his comments.

Ian.
--
http://mecenia.blogspot.com/

On 3/11/2010 10:47 PM, Ian Trudel wrote:
> I am sorry, Andreas. That's not what I meant.

No problem. I just want us to be honest with our own shortcomings :-)
Does Pharo look better? Yes. Does it have to stay that way? Hell, no. If
it weren't for the problem of having 300k overrides and extensions in
Polymorph we'd have long merged it. Unfortunately Polymorph is indeed a
tricky beast to merge and it looks as if it may not be possible without
help from the original authors. Who seem to be mostly Pharo oriented,
too bad. We'll just have to work something out I guess :-)

> I don't blame Edgar in
> any way. I am trying to understand what he is writing. My biggest
> concern is about his comment on the trunk since he wants to be part of
> the release team. Nobody pretends the trunk is a perfect solution but
> it's only logical to assume that he will have to deal with the trunk
> unless he (or someone else) comes up with a viable alternative that
> people will adopt. There's no conspiracy with the trunk, right? :)

There isn't. At least I'm not running one :-)

> I'm interested to read what Edgar has to write about his comments.

Actually, I'm too! :-)

Cheers,
   - Andreas

On 3/11/10 10:10 PM, "UZONYI Levente" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> What do you mean? How does it break?
.

I know you have deeper Smalltalk ,
But if you was happy with how trunk perform...
Seems the Blue Pill we swallow in 3.10 beta was strong and still in effect..
If you don't know what I talking about, read release list some says is bad
idea.

Tell me how you add a server with FileList as we do in 3.10 , please.
And if you choose name it 'Levente', see this name in the tree list of file
list

Only for the last one.

Edgar

On 3/11/10 10:47 PM, "Levente Uzonyi" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Noone forces you to use Squeak.
>
>
> Levente


only misdirect those who know where they go

On 3/11/10 11:14 PM, "Igor Stasenko" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> What is your point, Edgar?
>
> Pharo having substantional improvements in different areas. Everyone knows it.

My point is I don't use Pharo and don't care about Pharopatas.
But if they have some is best as we have now, I want it .
Like I said Cuis have things I wish.
And if we was serious about having a Core, we need start some day, don't you
think ?

I have this

 SL3.11-9375-alpha.zip
<http://ftp.squeak.org/various_images/SqueakLight/SL3.11-9375-alpha.zip>
14-Feb-2010 11:40

And all derived work letting me have SL3dot11-9499-alpha.
I wish share it and polish it for having a community SqueakCore ,
Smaller , modular and smarter as I care about backwards versions.

I made 4.1 with the Andreas agenda, not a bit different.
And FunSqueak have his fourth week report this Monday, using only trunk as
is now and a lot of hand work for having it.

I end this as no point in endless discuss.

Cheers.
Edgar

On 3/12/10 3:05 AM, "Ian Trudel" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> That's a very interesting comment from a person who wants to be in the
> Squeak release team. It seems like you prefer Pharo and don't want to
> deal with the current process. Are you sure you're working on the
> right project for you?
Yes.

Because if all let me, I end having the best of Cuis , Pharo and Trunk for
all.

And if not let me, I do myself and you never read any you don't like.
Seems the Blue Pill we swallow in 3.10 beta was strong and still in effect..

Cheers.
Edgar

2010/3/12 Edgar J. De Cleene <[hidden email]>:
All right. You want the best of everything. That's good as long as we
agree on what the best is. :)

Besides, Pharo has adopted a Macish look-and-feel. I think it would be
a misopportunity to move forward such look-and-feel because it makes
no sense to copy when a software has its own windowing system. We
should have native windows if we want a native look-and-feel, and not
everybody runs MacOS X. Squeak has an opportunity to distinguish
itself and step the mark with its very own look-and-feel.

You are right that we should not be oblivious to what the problems
are. However, it seems to me that most people know the shortcomings of
the trunk. Edgar, when you wrote your comment, it made me think that
you would ditch the trunk and go back to the old ways. And I see that
you insist on using a 120 days unused mailing list when we need to
fusion as a community rather than fragment. What's the point?

I will hope that you will elicit and document what the current
problems and potential solutions are provided that you are elected as
a board member.

Ian.
--
http://mecenia.blogspot.com/

On 3/12/10 10:51 AM, "Ian Trudel" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Besides, Pharo has adopted a Macish look-and-feel. I think it would be
> a misopportunity to move forward such look-and-feel because it makes
> no sense to copy when a software has its own windowing system. We
> should have native windows if we want a native look-and-feel, and not
> everybody runs MacOS X. Squeak has an opportunity to distinguish
> itself and step the mark with its very own look-and-feel.

I go back to Great Squeak for SqueakCore , the first you see is the green
gradient fill and the BatMorph annoying whose only goal is Web as usual.
For Mac I have OS X and for Windoze the ugly Hasta la Vista.
In the very long run I want LinXqueak drived from Terminal and let me choose
external packages.

> Edgar, when you wrote your comment, it made me think that
> you would ditch the trunk and go back to the old ways. And I see that
> you insist on using a 120 days unused mailing list when we need to
> fusion as a community rather than fragment.

Not so.
If nobody use the list is why we don't believe in the 3.11 ReleaseTeam.
The 3.10 ReleaseTeam have it working.
People say no list , I listen people.
End of the subject.

> I will hope that you will elicit and document what the current
> problems and potential solutions are provided that you are elected as
> a board member.

I don't have many chances as people trust more JustTalkers.
But I repeat , do myself anyway.
Just now I cook this

* Ast ()
* BabySRE ()
* Bogus ()
* Collections ()
Compiler ()
Compression ()
ConsoleUI ()
DynamicBindings (DynamicBindings-gc.7)
Exceptions ()
* FFI ()
Files ()
* FlexibleVocabularies ()
* Graphics ()
HV (HV-edc.147)
HVBlog (HVBlog-edc.4)
* Kernel ()
KomHttpServer (KomHttpServer-edc.52)
KomServices (KomServices-gc.19)
* MinimalMorphic ()
* MinimalMorphicLoader ()
* Monticello ()
* Morphic ()
* MorphicExtras ()
* Multilingual ()
* Network ()
Network-HTML (Network-HTML-md.4)
* Ob ()
* Omnibrowser ()
* PackageInfo ()
Protocols ()
* Refactoring ()
* ST80 ()
SUnit (SUnit-nice.74)
* Services (Services-edc.1)
ShoutCore (ShoutCore-ar.2)
* Smbase ()
* Sound ()
* System ()
ToolBuilder ()
* Tools ()
Traits ()
* Universes ()
VB-Regex (VB-Regex-MarcusDenker.40)
* Vb ()
XML-Parser (XML-Parser-mir.9)

File 'MMDev.7246.image' is 9942124 bytes long.

It's not fancy and not Closures, but you see Minimal could load last SUnit
(SUnit-nice.74) from trunk and VB-Regex (VB-Regex-MarcusDenker.40) from
Pharo TODAY.
The bare MinimalMorphic is 7.3 mb and use the same CodeLoader they forgive
you have.
How they plan load .pr or .morph, with Metacello adding lots of code ?
Or with Mason ?
Maybe with Sm ? Someone who knows more care to see why you can't use it on
Wonder Trunk NoBreaking?

Sure, they like kill mosquitoes with a cannon and me prefer slay dragons
with a rubber.

Seems the slow turtle leads the Core business if you need power and not care
too much on details.
Still I don't put HVNaughtieWiki into...

Edgar
P.S. Sometimes I itch people for see what they really want and how much help
will I get.
Apollogize

2010/3/12 Edgar J. De Cleene <[hidden email]>:
>
> Edgar
> P.S. Sometimes I itch people for see what they really want and how much help
> will I get.
> Apollogize

Thanks, Edgar. Slowly I begin to see where you are headed to. You are
not annoying and I think that it has more to do with language barrier
than anything else. Sometimes I don't understand what you are writing
and need more explanation from you. Your patience with us is
invaluable. :)

Ian.
--
http://mecenia.blogspot.com/

On 12.03.2010, at 15:06, Ian Trudel wrote:
+1 :)

- Bert -

On Mar 12, 2010, at 12:11 AM, Edgar J. De Cleene wrote:


I never use this particular feature, so I wouldn't notice it break.

If this worked in 3.10 and doesn't now then it shouldn't be hard to figure out when it broke.  If you're a regular user of the feature, it might be even easier, since you might know more precisely when it broke.

From what I've seen, a message to the list of the form "Feature X broke in update-jcg.82.mcm" usually results in an "oops, sorry" and a quick fix.  Maybe I missed it; did you send such a message?

Cheers,
Josh


> Edgar
>
>
>
>

On Fri, 12 Mar 2010, keith wrote:

So what's the conclusion?

(I know I shouldn't answer Keith's rant, but I just can't stop myself,
sorry.)
I'm pretty disappointed that the Release Team Leader of Squeak 4.1 (aka
Trunk) thinks that Pharo is "most advanced" and "well done". I feel like
our hard work worth nothing to him. And I think Edgar didn't mean that
Pharo is better because it has a better look-and-feel as Andreas thought,
because of these statements:
"They have Gofer, seems a good thing to have.
Also have Polymorh, sorry don.t buy this one."

> So along comes a new process which shuts him out from contributing to squeak,
> as it has me, and we are told...

Bullshit.


Levente

>
> "... no one forces you to use squeak"
>
> how rude
>
> Keith
>
>