For Serious Software Developers Only was: Re: Multy-core CPUs
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For Serious Software Developers Only was: Re: Multy-core CPUs
 
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On 10/18/07, Ralph Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 10/17/07, Steve Wart <[hidden email]> wrote: +1 although the possibilities appear seriously constrained by having the cart(hw) before the horse(sw): People who are really serious about software should make their own hardware.
Alan Kay @ Creative Think Seminar 1982 There may indeed be ingenious ways for a chemist to make ice cubes suitable for doing laundry, but having a supply of liquid water will generally be a more fruitful approach. The experiences of many decades seem to indicate that these issues just won't go away. What will it take to get the Squeak/Croquet/Smalltalk community to commit to an evolutionary path through things like Spoon and Plurion that lead to disruptive innovation? Laurence |
Re: For Serious Software Developers Only was: Re: Multy-core CPUs
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> What will it take to get the Squeak/Croquet/Smalltalk community to
> commit to an evolutionary path through things like Spoon and Plurion > that lead to disruptive innovation? first google hit: http://www.plurion.co.uk/ ??? -- Buy Ron Paul's Money! =) http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/ronpauldollar Soundest investment on the planet! |
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On 10/19/07, Alan Grimes wrote:
> > What will it take to get the Squeak/Croquet/Smalltalk community to > > commit to an evolutionary path through things like Spoon and Plurion > > that lead to disruptive innovation? > > first google hit: http://www.plurion.co.uk/ ??? namespace collision :) I think Laurence means http://www.merlintec.com/merlin6/e_main.html http://www.merlintec.com/download/plurion.pdf (2005 - reputedly very out of date) http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/hardware/2007-August/000014.html http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/hardware/2007-October/000020.html see also http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/552 I learned today that there is a hardware list at squeakfoundation :) |
Re: For Serious Software Developers Only was: Re: Multy-core CPUs
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David Corking wrote:
> On 10/19/07, Alan Grimes wrote: > > > What will it take to get the Squeak/Croquet/Smalltalk community to > > > commit to an evolutionary path through things like Spoon and Plurion > > > that lead to disruptive innovation? > > > > first google hit: http://www.plurion.co.uk/ ??? > > namespace collision :) Back in 2001 when I registered Plurion as a trademark Google didn't return any hits. I already knew how important multi-cores would be so it seemed like a good name. Anybody interested in parallel Smalltalk should take a look at the J-Machine and find out more about Concurrent Aggregates: http://cva.stanford.edu/projects/j-machine/ This has a picture of Smalltalk (with Lisp syntax, but this was at MIT after all) running on 1024 processors. And as Jerry Pournelle likes to say, "what man has achieved, man can aspire to". > I think Laurence means > > http://www.merlintec.com/merlin6/e_main.html > http://www.merlintec.com/download/plurion.pdf (2005 - reputedly very > out of date) The overall architecture has not changed, but the individual cores are now like this: http://www.merlintec.com:8080/hardware/RISC42 -- Jecel |
Re: For Serious Software Developers Only was: Re: Multy-core CPUs
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In reply to this post by dcorking
On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 02:12:40PM +0100, David Corking wrote:
> On 10/19/07, Alan Grimes wrote: > > > What will it take to get the Squeak/Croquet/Smalltalk community to > > > commit to an evolutionary path through things like Spoon and Plurion > > > that lead to disruptive innovation? > > > > first google hit: http://www.plurion.co.uk/ ??? > > namespace collision :) > > I think Laurence means > > http://www.merlintec.com/merlin6/e_main.html > http://www.merlintec.com/download/plurion.pdf (2005 - reputedly very > out of date) > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/hardware/2007-August/000014.html > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/hardware/2007-October/000020.html > > see also > > http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/552 > > I learned today that there is a hardware list at squeakfoundation :) Thanks for collecting the refs. The front page for the plurion is the swiki page: http://www.merlintec.com:8080/hardware/Plurion It needs more google hits, so link to it! :) -- Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/ Help improve Squeak Documentation: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/808 |
Re: For Serious Software Developers Only was: Re: Multy-core CPUs
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> Thanks for collecting the refs. The front page for the plurion
> is the swiki page: > http://www.merlintec.com:8080/hardware/Plurion > It needs more google hits, so link to it! :) Okay, Nice, Fine. Call me a cynical bastard but unless I can go down to the local mega-mart and buy one for $1,000, or even $10,000, in a usable form, it doesn't even exist, period. It started when I started hearing hype around the Cell Broadband engine. For years I heard about it. Always my question was WHEN CAN I GET ONE? Can I use it for general purpose computing? Can I put it in one of the vacant 64x66 PCI slots in my machine? As of today, it is still vaporware to me because I can only get it in a PSX3 which I am not in the market for at present, all other solutions appear to be either too expensive or incompatible with my current system. OpenSparc.net is another example of a fine if not perfect architecture that you'll never (within the forseeable future) be able to get your hands on. Unless you are intent on fueling my feelings of alienation and disempowerment from the computing industry in general, just don't even mention this kind of thing. =\ -- Buy Ron Paul's Money! =) http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/ronpauldollar Soundest investment on the planet! |
vaporware (was: For Serious Software Developers)
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Alan Grimes wrote:
> > Thanks for collecting the refs. The front page for the plurion > > is the swiki page: > > http://www.merlintec.com:8080/hardware/Plurion > > It needs more google hits, so link to it! :) It would be nice for me to actually put something useful there before it starts getting hits.... > Okay, > Nice, > Fine. > > Call me a cynical bastard but unless I can go down to the local > mega-mart and buy one for $1,000, or even $10,000, in a usable form, it > doesn't even exist, period. You are right - this is 100% vaporware for now. I haven't even written the first line of the processor implementation, yet. But getting the design right takes a while too, and that is what I have been doing since 1999. When it is ready, you will be able to download it for free over the internet (you will need a FPGA board and you will be able to get all files needed to build one free as well, your you can just buy one of the many kits on the market). > It started when I started hearing hype around the Cell Broadband engine. > For years I heard about it. Always my question was WHEN CAN I GET ONE? > Can I use it for general purpose computing? Can I put it in one of the > vacant 64x66 PCI slots in my machine? You can. > As of today, it is still vaporware to me because I can only get it in a > PSX3 which I am not in the market for at present, all other solutions > appear to be either too expensive or incompatible with my current system. Indeed, http://www.mc.com/microsites/cell/ might be too expensive for you. But it is a reality. > OpenSparc.net is another example of a fine if not perfect architecture > that you'll never (within the forseeable future) be able to get your > hands on. Why not? I am playing around with Leon3, which is a Sparc that requires far more modest resources but OpenSparc seems pretty real to me. Again, it probably doesn't fit your budget (just the FPGA to run this thing is more than $2K) but for other people it is ok as is.. > Unless you are intent on fueling my feelings of alienation and > disempowerment from the computing industry in general, just don't even > mention this kind of thing. =\ We created a separate squeak-hardware list so that people who are interested in things that aren't ready yet can hear about them without bothering you, but somethings the discussions here go in a direction where it makes sense to mention such projects or it would give people the wrong impression. -- Jecel |
Re: vaporware (was: For Serious Software Developers)
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In reply to this post by Alan Grimes-2
Jecel,
> > Unless you are intent on fueling my feelings of alienation and > > disempowerment from the computing industry in general, just don't even > > mention this kind of thing. =\ > > We created a separate squeak-hardware list so that people who are > interested in things that aren't ready yet can hear about them without > bothering you, but somethings the discussions here go in a direction > where it makes sense to mention such projects or it would give people > the wrong impression. Please keep mentioning these kind of things on this list. You've been doing interesting work, and FPGA will be more and more important. -- Yoshiki |
Re: For Serious Software Developers Only was: Re: Multy-core CPUs
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In reply to this post by Alan Grimes-2
On 10/19/07, Alan Grimes <[hidden email]> wrote: > Thanks for collecting the refs. The front page for the plurion This FPGA implementation seems to be a sign of progress and it seems like the setup used can be had for <$10K. I agree we want to buy off the shelf, but shift is happening and that's a good thing. Given that many in the Smalltalk world know that there just has to be better integration, coming up with a plan of evolution would be in our collective best interests right? Unless you are intent on fueling my feelings of alienation and |
Re: For Serious Software Developers Only was: Re: Multy-core CPUs
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In reply to this post by Alan Grimes-2
On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 22:06:36 +0200, Alan Grimes wrote:
>> Thanks for collecting the refs. The front page for the plurion >> is the swiki page: >> http://www.merlintec.com:8080/hardware/Plurion >> It needs more google hits, so link to it! :) > > Okay, > Nice, > Fine. > > Call me a cynical bastard but unless I can go down to the local > mega-mart and buy one for $1,000, or even $10,000, in a usable form, it > doesn't even exist, period. Why do everything yourself, Alan. Convince your customer that *they* need one - http://www.google.com/search?q=16-way+single+image+dual+core+libra and get payed for playing with it :) /Klaus > It started when I started hearing hype around the Cell Broadband engine. > For years I heard about it. Always my question was WHEN CAN I GET ONE? > Can I use it for general purpose computing? Can I put it in one of the > vacant 64x66 PCI slots in my machine? > > As of today, it is still vaporware to me because I can only get it in a > PSX3 which I am not in the market for at present, all other solutions > appear to be either too expensive or incompatible with my current system. > > OpenSparc.net is another example of a fine if not perfect architecture > that you'll never (within the forseeable future) be able to get your > hands on. > > Unless you are intent on fueling my feelings of alienation and > disempowerment from the computing industry in general, just don't even > mention this kind of thing. =\ > |
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In reply to this post by Yoshiki Ohshima-2
Yoshiki,
> Please keep mentioning these kind of things on this list. You've > been doing interesting work, and FPGA will be more and more important. Whenever I have interesting results I will comment about them here (and will post a link to a video if possible). And like I said, sometimes the discussion here goes in a direction where not mentioning unfinished work would be misleading, such as when someone asks "why hasn't anybody looked at using multi-processors for Smalltalk?' or something like that. But for general discussions about unfinished stuff the new hardware list is a better option. I do understand Alan's frustration since I often feel it myself. What I was trying to explain to him, however, is that he was mixing up two different things: there is the frustration of not having money to buy airplane tickets for this year's OOPSLA (though some people might still see me there....), for example, which is very different from the frustration of not being able to buy something because they refuse to make any more (http://www.bazix.nl/onechipmsx.html) or haven't started making them yet (http://www.xiltendo.com/). -- Jecel |
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In reply to this post by Alan Grimes-2
Hi,
> Call me a cynical bastard but unless I can go down to the local > mega-mart and buy one for $1,000, or even $10,000, in a usable form, it > doesn't even exist, period. > How about we just say that your point of view is very practical... So if Tilera were to make it's 64 processor chip board for a PC available for less than $1,000 you'd buy it? Or would it really have to be from the local mega-mart too rather than direct? When Tilera makes their Tile-64 processor available to anyone then you'll be able to buy it and shove a Tilera Tile-64 board (http://tilera.com/products/boards.php) into your PC to run with a 64 processor chip!!! In fact they claim to be able to put two 64 processor chips on one expansion board. Let's all contact Tilera (http://tilera.com) politely and ask them how much a development system card is and when they will ship it. If you are serious tell them you'd like to buy one today and have them ship it today! Tilera Corporation 1900 West Park Drive Suite 290 Westborough, Massachusetts 01581 Phone: (508) 616-9300 Fax: (508) 616-9306 They also have a contact form. http://tilera.com/company/contact_form.php. If you are serious about buying a board to develop parallel applications with ask them for a sales contact. It's getting real folks. Let's get Smalltalk ready to handle the new large N-Core hardware wave that is upon us!!! All the best, Peter William Lount [hidden email] |
Re: For Serious Software Developers Only was: Re: Multy-core CPUs
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On 21/10/2007, Peter William Lount <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi, > > > Call me a cynical bastard but unless I can go down to the local > > mega-mart and buy one for $1,000, or even $10,000, in a usable form, it > > doesn't even exist, period. > > > > How about we just say that your point of view is very practical... So if > Tilera were to make it's 64 processor chip board for a PC available for > less than $1,000 you'd buy it? Or would it really have to be from the > local mega-mart too rather than direct? > > When Tilera makes their Tile-64 processor available to anyone then > you'll be able to buy it and shove a Tilera Tile-64 board > (http://tilera.com/products/boards.php) into your PC to run with a 64 > processor chip!!! In fact they claim to be able to put two 64 processor > chips on one expansion board. > > Let's all contact Tilera (http://tilera.com) politely and ask them how > much a development system card is and when they will ship it. If you are > serious tell them you'd like to buy one today and have them ship it today! > > Tilera Corporation > 1900 West Park Drive > Suite 290 > Westborough, Massachusetts 01581 > Phone: (508) 616-9300 > Fax: (508) 616-9306 > > They also have a contact form. > http://tilera.com/company/contact_form.php. If you are serious about > buying a board to develop parallel applications with ask them for a > sales contact. > > It's getting real folks. Let's get Smalltalk ready to handle the new > large N-Core hardware wave that is upon us!!! > Btw, just read here (http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8981295285.html): -- Availability The Tile64 is available now, in three variants differentiated by I/O mix and clock. Pricing starts at $435 in 10,000 quantities, the company said. Tilera's iLib and MDE tools, and TilExpress-64 board are also available at undisclosed pricing. -- I think it will be less than $1000 for end user. Affordable price for 64 CPUs :) > All the best, > > Peter William Lount > [hidden email] > > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. |
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Igor Stasenko wrote:
On 21/10/2007, Peter William Lount [hidden email] wrote: Hi, So far they haven't replied to my repeated queries to purchase a development board. They also seem to be only focused on a few specialized vertical markets. That is why I'm asking any of you interested in their technology to inquire as well. Thanks. Peter |
Re: For Serious Software Developers Only was: Re: Multy-core CPUs
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In reply to this post by pwl
> When Tilera makes their Tile-64 processor available to anyone then
> you'll be able to buy it and shove a Tilera Tile-64 board > (http://tilera.com/products/boards.php) into your PC to run with a 64 > processor chip!!! In fact they claim to be able to put two 64 processor > chips on one expansion board. Okay, nice. Unfortunately, I will first need to upgrade my box, because it only has PCI 2.2 slots. (albeit 66 mhz/ 64 bit). =\ > It's getting real folks. Let's get Smalltalk ready to handle the new > large N-Core hardware wave that is upon us!!! I've been using a SMP box since 2003. =P -- Buy Ron Paul's Money! =) http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/ronpauldollar Soundest investment on the planet! |
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