Free Software and Cincom Smalltalk Non-Commercial

> We've gotten a few questions about the use of Cincom Smalltalk for free  
> software distribution.  In light of that, here's the policy we have:
>
> If you have downloaded Cincom Smalltalk non-commercial, then:
>
> -- You are already under the non-commercial or academic license, so any  
> software you want to distribute also falls under that license
>
> -- The end users of software you give away under the non-commercial or  
> academic license need not pay anything, either to you or Cincom, so long  
> as two things hold:
>
> 1) No money changes hands (if it does, it becomes a commercial  
> transaction rather than an NC/Academic transaction)
>
> 2) The end users use the software in Cincom Smalltalk non-commercial, in  
> the context of the development environment (i.e., not in a sealed  
> runtime)
>
> Under those criteria, you can distribute free software written in Cincom  
> Smalltalk Non-Commercial
>
>
> <Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
> James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
> http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView

>If I read it properly, the point #2 implies that one can't make
>runtime-packaged freeware apps with VisualWorks Non-Commercial?
>
>Cheers!
>
>-Boris
>
>--
>+1.604.689.0322
>DeepCove Labs Ltd.
>4th floor 595 Howe Street
>Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5
>
>[hidden email]
>
>CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
>
>This email is intended only for the persons named in the message
>header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is
>private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please
>notify the sender and delete the entire message including any
>attachments.
>
>Thank you.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: James Robertson [mailto:[hidden email]]
>Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 10:56 AM
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: Free Software and Cincom Smalltalk Non-Commercial
>
>We've gotten a few questions about the use of Cincom Smalltalk for free
>software distribution.  In light of that, here's the policy we have:
>
>If you have downloaded Cincom Smalltalk non-commercial, then:
>
>-- You are already under the non-commercial or academic license, so any
>software you want to distribute also falls under that license
>
>-- The end users of software you give away under the non-commercial or
>academic license need not pay anything, either to you or Cincom, so long as
>two things hold:
>
>1) No money changes hands (if it does, it becomes a commercial transaction
>rather than an NC/Academic transaction)
>
>2) The end users use the software in Cincom Smalltalk non-commercial, in
>the context of the development environment (i.e., not in a sealed runtime)
>
>Under those criteria, you can distribute free software written in Cincom
>Smalltalk Non-Commercial
>
>
><Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
>James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
>http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
>
>

>James:
>
>One may want to distribute something for free but that does not
>necessarily mean that one may want the source code exposed or at least
>blatantly exposed. So is it okay to all or any of:
>
>1. Launch one's app at startup instead of the VW Launcher
>2. Hide the source code to at least one's code.
>3. Plead ignorance and just do what one things reasonable.
>
>thanks
>
>-Charles
>
>
>On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 13:56:19 -0400, James Robertson <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>
>>We've gotten a few questions about the use of Cincom Smalltalk for free
>>software distribution.  In light of that, here's the policy we have:
>>
>>If you have downloaded Cincom Smalltalk non-commercial, then:
>>
>>-- You are already under the non-commercial or academic license, so any
>>software you want to distribute also falls under that license
>>
>>-- The end users of software you give away under the non-commercial or
>>academic license need not pay anything, either to you or Cincom, so long
>>as two things hold:
>>
>>1) No money changes hands (if it does, it becomes a commercial
>>transaction rather than an NC/Academic transaction)
>>
>>2) The end users use the software in Cincom Smalltalk non-commercial, in
>>the context of the development environment (i.e., not in a sealed
>>runtime)
>>
>>Under those criteria, you can distribute free software written in Cincom
>>Smalltalk Non-Commercial
>>
>>
>><Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
>>James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
>>http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
>
>
>
>--
>Charles A. Monteiro

>Not if you own a developer license at $300 per year plus 5% royalty of
>$0.00, right?
>
>-Boris
>
>--
>+1.604.689.0322
>DeepCove Labs Ltd.
>4th floor 595 Howe Street
>Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5
>
>[hidden email]
>
>CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
>
>This email is intended only for the persons named in the message
>header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is
>private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please
>notify the sender and delete the entire message including any
>attachments.
>
>Thank you.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: James Robertson [mailto:[hidden email]]
>Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 11:05 AM
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: RE: Free Software and Cincom Smalltalk Non-Commercial
>
>For personal use, sure.  For widespread distribution, the terms of the NC
>license apply.  Meaning, the resulting sealed app can't be used for
>commercial purposes.
>
>Yes, BottomFeeder potentially violates that :)
>
>
>
>At 02:03 PM 4/4/2006, you wrote:
> >If I read it properly, the point #2 implies that one can't make
> >runtime-packaged freeware apps with VisualWorks Non-Commercial?
> >
> >Cheers!
> >
> >-Boris
> >
> >--
> >+1.604.689.0322
> >DeepCove Labs Ltd.
> >4th floor 595 Howe Street
> >Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5
> >
> >[hidden email]
> >
> >CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
> >
> >This email is intended only for the persons named in the message
> >header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is
> >private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please
> >notify the sender and delete the entire message including any
> >attachments.
> >
> >Thank you.
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: James Robertson [mailto:[hidden email]]
> >Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 10:56 AM
> >To: [hidden email]
> >Subject: Free Software and Cincom Smalltalk Non-Commercial
> >
> >We've gotten a few questions about the use of Cincom Smalltalk for free
> >software distribution.  In light of that, here's the policy we have:
> >
> >If you have downloaded Cincom Smalltalk non-commercial, then:
> >
> >-- You are already under the non-commercial or academic license, so any
> >software you want to distribute also falls under that license
> >
> >-- The end users of software you give away under the non-commercial or
> >academic license need not pay anything, either to you or Cincom, so long as
> >two things hold:
> >
> >1) No money changes hands (if it does, it becomes a commercial transaction
> >rather than an NC/Academic transaction)
> >
> >2) The end users use the software in Cincom Smalltalk non-commercial, in
> >the context of the development environment (i.e., not in a sealed runtime)
> >
> >Under those criteria, you can distribute free software written in Cincom
> >Smalltalk Non-Commercial
> >
> >
> ><Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
> >James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
> >http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
> >
> >
>
><Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
>James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
>http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
>
>

> For personal use, sure.  For widespread distribution, the terms of  
> the NC license apply.  Meaning, the resulting sealed app can't be  
> used for commercial purposes.
>
> Yes, BottomFeeder potentially violates that :)
>
>
>
> At 02:03 PM 4/4/2006, you wrote:
>> If I read it properly, the point #2 implies that one can't make
>> runtime-packaged freeware apps with VisualWorks Non-Commercial?
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>> -Boris
>>
>> --
>> +1.604.689.0322
>> DeepCove Labs Ltd.
>> 4th floor 595 Howe Street
>> Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5
>>
>> [hidden email]
>>
>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
>>
>> This email is intended only for the persons named in the message
>> header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is
>> private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please
>> notify the sender and delete the entire message including any
>> attachments.
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: James Robertson [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 10:56 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Free Software and Cincom Smalltalk Non-Commercial
>>
>> We've gotten a few questions about the use of Cincom Smalltalk for  
>> free
>> software distribution.  In light of that, here's the policy we have:
>>
>> If you have downloaded Cincom Smalltalk non-commercial, then:
>>
>> -- You are already under the non-commercial or academic license,  
>> so any
>> software you want to distribute also falls under that license
>>
>> -- The end users of software you give away under the non-
>> commercial or
>> academic license need not pay anything, either to you or Cincom,  
>> so long as
>> two things hold:
>>
>> 1) No money changes hands (if it does, it becomes a commercial  
>> transaction
>> rather than an NC/Academic transaction)
>>
>> 2) The end users use the software in Cincom Smalltalk non-
>> commercial, in
>> the context of the development environment (i.e., not in a sealed  
>> runtime)
>>
>> Under those criteria, you can distribute free software written in  
>> Cincom
>> Smalltalk Non-Commercial
>>
>>
>> <Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
>> James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
>> http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
>>
>>
>
> <Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
> James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
> http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
>

as
> >two things hold:
> >
> >1) No money changes hands (if it does, it becomes a commercial

>
> Thanks!
>
> -Boris
>
> --
> +1.604.689.0322
> DeepCove Labs Ltd.
> 4th floor 595 Howe Street
> Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5
>
> [hidden email]
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
>
> This email is intended only for the persons named in the message
> header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is
> private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please
> notify the sender and delete the entire message including any
> attachments.
>
> Thank you.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Robertson [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 11:17 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: Free Software and Cincom Smalltalk Non-Commercial
>
> That's commercial at that point, so there are no distribution  
> qualifiers at
> all.
>
> At 02:14 PM 4/4/2006, you wrote:
>> Not if you own a developer license at $300 per year plus 5%  
>> royalty of
>> $0.00, right?
>>
>> -Boris
>>
>> --
>> +1.604.689.0322
>> DeepCove Labs Ltd.
>> 4th floor 595 Howe Street
>> Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5
>>
>> [hidden email]
>>
>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
>>
>> This email is intended only for the persons named in the message
>> header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is
>> private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please
>> notify the sender and delete the entire message including any
>> attachments.
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: James Robertson [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 11:05 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: RE: Free Software and Cincom Smalltalk Non-Commercial
>>
>> For personal use, sure.  For widespread distribution, the terms of  
>> the NC
>> license apply.  Meaning, the resulting sealed app can't be used for
>> commercial purposes.
>>
>> Yes, BottomFeeder potentially violates that :)
>>
>>
>>
>> At 02:03 PM 4/4/2006, you wrote:
>>> If I read it properly, the point #2 implies that one can't make
>>> runtime-packaged freeware apps with VisualWorks Non-Commercial?
>>>
>>> Cheers!
>>>
>>> -Boris
>>>
>>> --
>>> +1.604.689.0322
>>> DeepCove Labs Ltd.
>>> 4th floor 595 Howe Street
>>> Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5
>>>
>>> [hidden email]
>>>
>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
>>>
>>> This email is intended only for the persons named in the message
>>> header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is
>>> private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please
>>> notify the sender and delete the entire message including any
>>> attachments.
>>>
>>> Thank you.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: James Robertson [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 10:56 AM
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Subject: Free Software and Cincom Smalltalk Non-Commercial
>>>
>>> We've gotten a few questions about the use of Cincom Smalltalk  
>>> for free
>>> software distribution.  In light of that, here's the policy we have:
>>>
>>> If you have downloaded Cincom Smalltalk non-commercial, then:
>>>
>>> -- You are already under the non-commercial or academic license,  
>>> so any
>>> software you want to distribute also falls under that license
>>>
>>> -- The end users of software you give away under the non-
>>> commercial or
>>> academic license need not pay anything, either to you or Cincom,  
>>> so long
> as
>>> two things hold:
>>>
>>> 1) No money changes hands (if it does, it becomes a commercial
> transaction
>>> rather than an NC/Academic transaction)
>>>
>>> 2) The end users use the software in Cincom Smalltalk non-
>>> commercial, in
>>> the context of the development environment (i.e., not in a sealed
> runtime)
>>>
>>> Under those criteria, you can distribute free software written in  
>>> Cincom
>>> Smalltalk Non-Commercial
>>>
>>>
>>> <Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
>>> James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
>>> http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
>>>
>>>
>>
>> <Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
>> James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
>> http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
>>
>>
>
> <Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
> James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
> http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
>

> We've gotten a few questions about the use of Cincom
> Smalltalk for free
> software distribution.  In light of that, here's the
> policy we have:
>
> If you have downloaded Cincom Smalltalk
> non-commercial, then:
>
> -- You are already under the non-commercial or
> academic license, so any
> software you want to distribute also falls under
> that license
>
> -- The end users of software you give away under the
> non-commercial or
> academic license need not pay anything, either to
> you or Cincom, so long as
> two things hold:
>
> 1) No money changes hands (if it does, it becomes a
> commercial transaction
> rather than an NC/Academic transaction)
>
> 2) The end users use the software in Cincom
> Smalltalk non-commercial, in
> the context of the development environment (i.e.,
> not in a sealed runtime)
>
> Under those criteria, you can distribute free
> software written in Cincom
> Smalltalk Non-Commercial
>
>
> <Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
> James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
> http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
>
>

> Within the terms of the license, sure
>
> At 02:05 PM 4/4/2006, you wrote:
>> James:
>>
>> One may want to distribute something for free but that does not
>> necessarily mean that one may want the source code exposed or at least
>> blatantly exposed. So is it okay to all or any of:
>>
>> 1. Launch one's app at startup instead of the VW Launcher
>> 2. Hide the source code to at least one's code.
>> 3. Plead ignorance and just do what one things reasonable.
>>
>> thanks
>>
>> -Charles
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 13:56:19 -0400, James Robertson <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> We've gotten a few questions about the use of Cincom Smalltalk for free
>>> software distribution.  In light of that, here's the policy we have:
>>>
>>> If you have downloaded Cincom Smalltalk non-commercial, then:
>>>
>>> -- You are already under the non-commercial or academic license, so any
>>> software you want to distribute also falls under that license
>>>
>>> -- The end users of software you give away under the non-commercial or
>>> academic license need not pay anything, either to you or Cincom, so  
>>> long
>>> as two things hold:
>>>
>>> 1) No money changes hands (if it does, it becomes a commercial
>>> transaction rather than an NC/Academic transaction)
>>>
>>> 2) The end users use the software in Cincom Smalltalk non-commercial,  
>>> in
>>> the context of the development environment (i.e., not in a sealed
>>> runtime)
>>>
>>> Under those criteria, you can distribute free software written in  
>>> Cincom
>>> Smalltalk Non-Commercial
>>>
>>>
>>> <Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
>>> James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
>>> http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Charles A. Monteiro
>
> <Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
> James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
> http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView

> not a lawyer :)
>
> does the license just say that the dev environment must simply somehow
> be present because in that case that is all I need :)
>
> but in practical terms Cincom is not coming after BottomFeeder :) so
> that's a model, right. Really, the NC license will be stifling to even
> freeware if one is forced to expose code, it will also potentially
> impact the usability of the freeware if the dev environment is in the
> face of the user. It would be so much nicer and clearer if the license
> simply says "you make money, we make money".
>
> -Charles

>not a lawyer :)
>
>does the license just say that the dev environment must simply somehow be
>present because in that case that is all I need :)
>
>but in practical terms Cincom is not coming after BottomFeeder :) so
>that's a model, right. Really, the NC license will be stifling to even
>freeware if one is forced to expose code, it will also potentially impact
>the usability of the freeware if the dev environment is in the face of the
>user. It would be so much nicer and clearer if the license simply says
>"you make money, we make money".
>
>-Charles
>
>On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 14:05:38 -0400, James Robertson <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>
>>Within the terms of the license, sure
>>
>>At 02:05 PM 4/4/2006, you wrote:
>>>James:
>>>
>>>One may want to distribute something for free but that does not
>>>necessarily mean that one may want the source code exposed or at least
>>>blatantly exposed. So is it okay to all or any of:
>>>
>>>1. Launch one's app at startup instead of the VW Launcher
>>>2. Hide the source code to at least one's code.
>>>3. Plead ignorance and just do what one things reasonable.
>>>
>>>thanks
>>>
>>>-Charles
>>>
>>>
>>>On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 13:56:19 -0400, James Robertson <[hidden email]>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>We've gotten a few questions about the use of Cincom Smalltalk for free
>>>>software distribution.  In light of that, here's the policy we have:
>>>>
>>>>If you have downloaded Cincom Smalltalk non-commercial, then:
>>>>
>>>>-- You are already under the non-commercial or academic license, so any
>>>>software you want to distribute also falls under that license
>>>>
>>>>-- The end users of software you give away under the non-commercial or
>>>>academic license need not pay anything, either to you or Cincom, so
>>>>long
>>>>as two things hold:
>>>>
>>>>1) No money changes hands (if it does, it becomes a commercial
>>>>transaction rather than an NC/Academic transaction)
>>>>
>>>>2) The end users use the software in Cincom Smalltalk non-commercial,
>>>>in
>>>>the context of the development environment (i.e., not in a sealed
>>>>runtime)
>>>>
>>>>Under those criteria, you can distribute free software written in
>>>>Cincom
>>>>Smalltalk Non-Commercial
>>>>
>>>>
>>>><Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
>>>>James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
>>>>http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Charles A. Monteiro
>>
>><Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
>>James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
>>http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
>
>
>
>--
>Charles A. Monteiro

> That's where licensing gets tricky, because simple formulation like "you
> make money, we make money" leaves room for me to develop something in NC,
> gift it to my wife and let her make tons of dough w/o having to pay  
> Cincom
> anything ;)
>
> Cheers!
>
> -Boris
>

>
> Hi,
>
> It might just be too dark outside, but I do not understand what  
> this means:
>>> 2) The end users use the software in Cincom Smalltalk non-
>>> commercial, in the context of the development environment (i.e.,  
>>> not a sealed runtime)
>
> Does is mean that we are not allowed to give away an executable? If  
> yes, why would that be?
>
> Also, about:
>>> 1) No money changes hands (if it does, it becomes a commercial  
>>> transaction rather than an NC/academic transaction)
>
> I understand that as long as we do not get money for SELLING the  
> software, it is Ok. I also understand that this does not apply on  
> the SERVICES sold by using the software's output - that is, if we  
> sell the consultancy service, nobody has to pay for VisualWorks.
>
> Is this correct?

>
> Hi,
>
> It might just be too dark outside, but I do not understand what  
> this means:
>>> 2) The end users use the software in Cincom Smalltalk non-
>>> commercial, in the context of the development environment (i.e.,  
>>> not a sealed runtime)
>
> Does is mean that we are not allowed to give away an executable? If  
> yes, why would that be?
>
> Also, about:
>>> 1) No money changes hands (if it does, it becomes a commercial  
>>> transaction rather than an NC/academic transaction)
>
> I understand that as long as we do not get money for SELLING the  
> software, it is Ok. I also understand that this does not apply on  
> the SERVICES sold by using the software's output - that is, if we  
> sell the consultancy service, nobody has to pay for VisualWorks.
>
> Is this correct?