Fwd: [Pharo-project] usability of Pharo and Squeak

>> +1
>> at this point i am usually closing everything without even considering
>> what window does what,
>> and start over again :)
>
> Ditto.
>
>> i dunno. many tabs are not anything better than many windows.
>> you will still lose time clicking on them till you will find one you
>> wanted.
>
> Sure they are, tabs allow you to cycle through windows meaningfully, browser
>> workspace > transcript > process explorer, without getting stuck flipping
> through 15+ browsers.  Once you've found the program you want, generally
> speaking, there's a way to cycle through it's tabs quickly to find what you
> want. Tabs give you context sensitive cycling through open things.  Alt +
> tab through windows, find program, ctrl + tab through open things in that
> program.  Vastly more productive than just having everything open a bunch of
> windows.
>
> More importantly, that's how the rest of the world already works,
> Linux/Windows/Mac all support this; Smalltalk, no no... so busy worried
> about inventing the future it doesn't notice it got left behind.
>

> On 06/01/2011 06:58 AM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
>>
>> Ramon, i appreciate your worries that squeak/smalltalk left behind.
>
> I'm not worried about anything, as I said earlier, I'm productive in spite
> of the awful UI.  It's still an awful UI.
>
>> But to change that, we need to do something. Experiment,
>> invent better UI for us. Saying that X is better than Y because rest
>> of the world does Y is not very strong argument.
>
> Actually, it is, when it comes to user interfaces because there are network
> effects involved and not being different just to be different has huge
> benefits.  We're not talking about Smalltalk here, we're talking about basic
> UI metaphors like windows and tabs.  There's nothing innovative about
> Squeak/Pharo here visually, it's basic windows, buttons, and scrollbars like
> every other windowing system out there.  It behaves like any OS did a decade
> ago before tabs were common in most apps.  Multiple document interfaces are
> not new, it's just a common metaphor that Squeak/Pharo ignore to their
> detriment.
>
>> Because smalltalk IDE is different comparing to other ides. And
>> workflow is different. And this is the reason why smalltalkers are
>> much more productive
>
> The browser is different, but combining multiple browsers as is into a
> single tabbed window doesn't change that; it's still the Smalltalk browser.
>  I didn't suggest changing the browser.  Tabs are simply a way to group
> windows together to reduce clutter.  It wouldn't stop anyone from opening
> multiple browser windows if they wanted to.
>
>> In Pharo, you already have tabs -  a task list at the bottom.
>
> No.  That's a window list, it's nothing like tabs for the reasons I already
> explained.  Tabs allow context sensitive cycling, the context being the
> window.
>
>> The problem is, that to my experience, it is not really helpful when
>> you have 15+ windows open.
>
> Of course not, because it's a window list, not a tab list.
>
>> That's why I'm not convinced that tabs will increase the productivity.
>
> Why would a window list convince you that tabs increase productivity?
>

> On 06/01/2011 06:58 AM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
>> Ramon, i appreciate your worries that squeak/smalltalk left behind.
>
> I'm not worried about anything, as I said earlier, I'm productive in spite of the awful UI.  It's still an awful UI.
>
>> But to change that, we need to do something. Experiment,
>> invent better UI for us. Saying that X is better than Y because rest
>> of the world does Y is not very strong argument.
>
> Actually, it is, when it comes to user interfaces because there are network effects involved and not being different just to be different has huge benefits.  We're not talking about Smalltalk here, we're talking about basic UI metaphors like windows and tabs.  There's nothing innovative about Squeak/Pharo here visually, it's basic windows, buttons, and scrollbars like every other windowing system out there.  It behaves like any OS did a decade ago before tabs were common in most apps.  Multiple document interfaces are not new, it's just a common metaphor that Squeak/Pharo ignore to their detriment.
>
>> Because smalltalk IDE is different comparing to other ides. And
>> workflow is different. And this is the reason why smalltalkers are
>> much more productive
>
> The browser is different, but combining multiple browsers as is into a single tabbed window doesn't change that; it's still the Smalltalk browser.  I didn't suggest changing the browser.  Tabs are simply a way to group windows together to reduce clutter.  It wouldn't stop anyone from opening multiple browser windows if they wanted to.
>
>> In Pharo, you already have tabs -  a task list at the bottom.
>
> No.  That's a window list, it's nothing like tabs for the reasons I already explained.  Tabs allow context sensitive cycling, the context being the window.
>
>> The problem is, that to my experience, it is not really helpful when
>> you have 15+ windows open.
>
> Of course not, because it's a window list, not a tab list.
>
>> That's why I'm not convinced that tabs will increase the productivity.
>
> Why would a window list convince you that tabs increase productivity?
>
> --
> Ramon Leon
> http://onsmalltalk.com
>