Games with Squeak
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Well, here a question to discuss
¿What do you think about use Squeak for make professional games? (with actual VM or possible future StrongTalk VM) I'm not talking about something like MineSweeper or Solitarie. I'm talking about a game with good graphics to sell. MMORPG (Lineage 2, EntropiaUniverse, Life...), RTS (Starwars, Warcraft...), Turn-Based Games (UFO, Civilization....) -- ::Mi blog:: http://blog.lordzealon.com Linux-User: #370919 |
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Lord ZealoN wrote:
> Well, here a question to discuss > > ¿What do you think about use Squeak for make professional games? (with > actual VM or possible future StrongTalk VM) > > I'm not talking about something like MineSweeper or Solitarie. I'm > talking about a game with good graphics to sell. MMORPG (Lineage 2, > EntropiaUniverse, Life...), RTS (Starwars, Warcraft...), Turn-Based > Games (UFO, Civilization....) > > > I would be looking at something like Smalltalk MT. Keith Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com |
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In reply to this post by Lord ZealoN
Hi,
Am 13.10.2006 um 14:24 schrieb Lord ZealoN: > Well, here a question to discuss > > ¿What do you think about use Squeak for make professional games? (with > actual VM or possible future StrongTalk VM) > > I'm not talking about something like MineSweeper or Solitarie. I'm > talking about a game with good graphics to sell. MMORPG (Lineage 2, > EntropiaUniverse, Life...), RTS (Starwars, Warcraft...), Turn-Based > Games (UFO, Civilization....) > up-to-date games uses high-level languages for scripting and basic gameplay. So from the principle, there is no reason why it should not work with Squeak, if putting some critical stuff in C libraries. But in practice, it may depend on the kind of game and the exact requirements. There is a guy (xbox developer) who plays with Dolphin smalltalk, see here: http://learningtotalk.blogspot.com/2006/09/ introduction-to-talking.html. See also Croquet (www.opencroquet.org) DirectX in Squeak may be a problem. I don't know if there is any package for this. Dolphin and Smalltalk MT have very good bindings to DirectX and Microsoft APIs in general. Regards Hans > > > -- > ::Mi blog:: > http://blog.lordzealon.com > > Linux-User: #370919 > |
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In reply to this post by Lord ZealoN
I would like to create something similar to the Damien's
ImageForDevelopers but... ImageForGameDevelopers ;) Packaged with the tools and tutorials to create simple games in Squeak (OpenGL and SDL bindings...). I think that such image will attract more developers interested in game development. I think that e-toys are very powerful but not so attractive to teenagers who want to learn how to code games, so having a image with those tools makes sense to me :) So I was looking for SDL bindings, I've found some mentions in the swiki and in the mail archive, but they seems outdated and I didn't found anything in Squeaksource or SqueakMap. So in my spare time I started an SDL binding using FFI (Andreas FFI is great :) thanks!!!). I didn't finish it yet but I could publish it "as is" into squeaksource.. so others can help me :) I don't have a lot of time... but maybe if there are others interested we can create an "ImageForGameDevelopers" :) (it's possible to load the OpenGL packages used in Croquet? how?) On 10/13/06, Lord ZealoN <[hidden email]> wrote: > Well, here a question to discuss > > ¿What do you think about use Squeak for make professional games? (with > actual VM or possible future StrongTalk VM) > > I'm not talking about something like MineSweeper or Solitarie. I'm > talking about a game with good graphics to sell. MMORPG (Lineage 2, > EntropiaUniverse, Life...), RTS (Starwars, Warcraft...), Turn-Based > Games (UFO, Civilization....) > > > > -- > ::Mi blog:: > http://blog.lordzealon.com > > Linux-User: #370919 > > |
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In reply to this post by Hans N Beck
Lord,
I suspect which language you use is much less important than the tools you use to make a professional game. The bar is very high and one person, or even a small team, cannot make all the tools needed. Many of those tools are purchase from 3rd parties for significant sums. At least, that's true for the games that you mentioned. Also, quality of game play is more important that the language it's written in, which is a skill that takes years to learn by practice and failure and lots of testing. For now, Smalltalk does not link to these tools very well. Most are file based which is not so compatible with Smalltalk's image. Managing large art content files and large quantities of them is required which might put a strain on Smalltalk's memory management. Professional games us a lot of tricks at the compiler level and code architecture level to squeeze every bit of optimization at the expense of ease of programming. Smalltalk's strength is that it's easy to change, but that may be a weakness here. Often in professional games, you don't want the games easy to change by the players because the temptation to cheat is too large. If you have a game where it's good for the player to change the code, then you may have an advantage with Smalltalk over other games. If you have a good game design or subject environment niche, Smalltalk might help you make an interesting game one can sell. It allows you to make many design mistakes and correct them quickly. But your niche will be more important than your platform or how professional it is. That said, Croquet can use Direct X. Maybe you could test out your game design in SecondLife and, when it starts to be popular, migrate it to Croquet. You might want to check out the Gamasutra game developer site for pointers how to get started for the Independent Game Developer. Cheers, Darius |
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In reply to this post by Diego Fernández
Sounds great!
I think you should be able to install the OpenGL package from http://hedgehog.software.umn.edu:8888/hedgehogRC.html in a non-Croquet image. - Bert - Am 13.10.2006 um 17:03 schrieb Diego Fernandez: > I would like to create something similar to the Damien's > ImageForDevelopers but... ImageForGameDevelopers ;) > > Packaged with the tools and tutorials to create simple games in Squeak > (OpenGL and SDL bindings...). > > I think that such image will attract more developers interested in > game development. > I think that e-toys are very powerful but not so attractive to > teenagers who want to learn how to code games, so having a image with > those tools makes sense to me :) > > So I was looking for SDL bindings, I've found some mentions in the > swiki and in the mail archive, but they seems outdated and I didn't > found anything in Squeaksource or SqueakMap. > So in my spare time I started an SDL binding using FFI (Andreas FFI > is great :) thanks!!!). > I didn't finish it yet but I could publish it "as is" into > squeaksource.. so others can help me :) > > I don't have a lot of time... but maybe if there are others interested > we can create an "ImageForGameDevelopers" :) > > (it's possible to load the OpenGL packages used in Croquet? how?) > > On 10/13/06, Lord ZealoN <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Well, here a question to discuss >> >> ¿What do you think about use Squeak for make professional games? >> (with >> actual VM or possible future StrongTalk VM) >> >> I'm not talking about something like MineSweeper or Solitarie. I'm >> talking about a game with good graphics to sell. MMORPG (Lineage 2, >> EntropiaUniverse, Life...), RTS (Starwars, Warcraft...), Turn-Based >> Games (UFO, Civilization....) >> >> >> >> -- >> ::Mi blog:: >> http://blog.lordzealon.com >> >> Linux-User: #370919 >> >> > |
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In reply to this post by Diego Fernández
please do :)
Stef On 13 oct. 06, at 17:03, Diego Fernandez wrote: > I would like to create something similar to the Damien's > ImageForDevelopers but... ImageForGameDevelopers ;) > > Packaged with the tools and tutorials to create simple games in Squeak > (OpenGL and SDL bindings...). > > I think that such image will attract more developers interested in > game development. > I think that e-toys are very powerful but not so attractive to > teenagers who want to learn how to code games, so having a image with > those tools makes sense to me :) > > So I was looking for SDL bindings, I've found some mentions in the > swiki and in the mail archive, but they seems outdated and I didn't > found anything in Squeaksource or SqueakMap. > So in my spare time I started an SDL binding using FFI (Andreas FFI > is great :) thanks!!!). > I didn't finish it yet but I could publish it "as is" into > squeaksource.. so others can help me :) > > I don't have a lot of time... but maybe if there are others interested > we can create an "ImageForGameDevelopers" :) > > (it's possible to load the OpenGL packages used in Croquet? how?) > > On 10/13/06, Lord ZealoN <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Well, here a question to discuss >> >> ¿What do you think about use Squeak for make professional games? >> (with >> actual VM or possible future StrongTalk VM) >> >> I'm not talking about something like MineSweeper or Solitarie. I'm >> talking about a game with good graphics to sell. MMORPG (Lineage 2, >> EntropiaUniverse, Life...), RTS (Starwars, Warcraft...), Turn-Based >> Games (UFO, Civilization....) >> >> >> >> -- >> ::Mi blog:: >> http://blog.lordzealon.com >> >> Linux-User: #370919 >> >> > |
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In reply to this post by Lord ZealoN
Lord ZealoN wrote:
> Well, here a question to discuss > > ¿What do you think about use Squeak for make professional games? (with > actual VM or possible future StrongTalk VM) > > I'm not talking about something like MineSweeper or Solitarie. I'm > talking about a game with good graphics to sell. MMORPG (Lineage 2, > EntropiaUniverse, Life...), RTS (Starwars, Warcraft...), Turn-Based > Games (UFO, Civilization....) > > > the internet. Squeak could be a great alternative in that arena. And by the time the tools are done and developer numbers pick up, hardware will be so fast one can do really do advanced games. Karl |
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In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg
Bert Freudenberg puso en su mail :
> I think you should be able to install the OpenGL package from > > http://hedgehog.software.umn.edu:8888/hedgehogRC.html > > in a non-Croquet image. Bert, the page is from SqueakSource and several .mcz are listed. Which one is the interface to OpenGL package ? Edgar __________________________________________________ Preguntá. Respondé. Descubrí. Todo lo que querías saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, está en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). ¡Probalo ya! http://www.yahoo.com.ar/respuestas |
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Edgar J. De Cleene wrote:
> Bert, the page is from SqueakSource and several .mcz are listed. > > Which one is the interface to OpenGL package ? Let's see ... could it possibly be the one called "OpenGL"? ;-) Cheers, - Andreas |
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In reply to this post by Darius Clarke
Darius,
I'm going to pick a nit with one thing you said: > Smalltalk's strength is that it's easy to change, but that may be a > weakness here. Often in professional games, you don't want the games > easy to change by the players because the temptation to cheat is too > large. When I was a kid--and the bar was MUCH lower on games, as in, a single person could code a viable commercial game in a month--I used to enter games from listings, and changing them was an excellent way to learn this particular skill: > Also, quality of game play...is a skill that takes years to learnby > practice and failure and lots of testing. Nothing gives you that skill faster than being able to tweak the rules of a game. Hell, even some of the commercial games we bought back in those days came as Basic programs that you could stop and hack. And you'd learn pretty quickly which rules were important and why. That's afield of the commercial issues, of course, though it should probably be pointed out that modding is at least one source of game programming talent these days. ===Blake=== |
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In reply to this post by Andreas.Raab
Andreas Raab puso en su mail :
> Let's see ... could it possibly be the one called "OpenGL"? ;-) > > Cheers, > - Andreas > Filename Author Timestamp Actions 3DTransform-bgf.18.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-09-25 17:46:55 details download 3DTransform-ar.13.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-04-05 00:15:38 details download 3DTransform-ar.11.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-03-27 01:19:59 details download 3DTransform-ar.10.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-03-13 19:55:08 details download 3DTransform-ar.9.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-03-10 18:32:48 details download 3DTransform-ar.8.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-03-07 22:01:01 details download 3DTransform-das.7.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-02-28 14:40:03 details download 3DTransform-ar.4.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-02-03 22:30:54 details download 3DTransform-ar.2.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-02-03 18:46:50 details download Croquet-Contacts-ar.3.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-04-19 16:08:19 details download Croquet-Contacts-ar.2.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-03-31 16:04:03 details download Croquet-Contacts-ar.1.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-03-23 23:40:51 details download Croquet-Copier-ar.8.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-10-07 17:26:44 details download Croquet-Copier-bgf.7.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-09-25 17:47:15 details download Croquet-Copier-ar.6.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-04-04 20:58:13 details download Croquet-Copier-ar.5.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-03-07 22:02:55 details download Croquet-Copier-ar.4.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-02-03 18:47:13 details download Croquet-Demo-das.23.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-09-25 17:47:41 details download Croquet-Demo-ar.20.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-06-19 14:43:34 details download Croquet-Demo-ar.17.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-04-05 00:16:22 details download Andreas, as you see no package said " OpenGL" in the provided link. I'm not familiar with Croquet and my only interest is try on not Croquet image (as Bert said). Cheers and continue good work (and be more nice with fools like me) Edgar __________________________________________________ Preguntá. Respondé. Descubrí. Todo lo que querías saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, está en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). ¡Probalo ya! http://www.yahoo.com.ar/respuestas |
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In reply to this post by Blake-5
Blake,
OK. Point taken. :-) On 10/13/06, Blake <[hidden email]> wrote:
Darius, |
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In reply to this post by Edgar J. De Cleene
Edgar,
You just listed the contents of the first page. Try page 7 or so (links are at the bottom of the page). Josh On Oct 13, 2006, at 5:01 PM, Edgar J. De Cleene wrote: > > Andreas, as you see no package said " OpenGL" in the provided link. > > Edgar > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Preguntá. Respondé. Descubrí. > Todo lo que querías saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, > está en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). > ¡Probalo ya! > http://www.yahoo.com.ar/respuestas > > |
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In reply to this post by Edgar J. De Cleene
When I follow the link
(http://hedgehog.software.umn.edu:8888/hedgehogRC.html) and am not logged in, I click the 'Latest' tab, and see the last package listed as OpenGL-ar.26.mcz. There is a download link on that line, which seems to work for me (again, without being logged in). From the list you've provided, Edgar, I think maybe you clicked on 'Versions', which is several pages long. You might have to do a lot of page jumping before you hit an OpenGL package. Edgar J. De Cleene wrote: > Andreas Raab puso en su mail : > >> Let's see ... could it possibly be the one called "OpenGL"? ;-) >> >> > Filename Author Timestamp Actions > 3DTransform-bgf.18.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-09-25 17:46:55 > details download > 3DTransform-ar.13.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-04-05 00:15:38 > details download > 3DTransform-ar.11.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-03-27 01:19:59 > details download > 3DTransform-ar.10.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-03-13 19:55:08 > details download > 3DTransform-ar.9.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-03-10 18:32:48 > details download > 3DTransform-ar.8.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-03-07 22:01:01 > details download > 3DTransform-das.7.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-02-28 14:40:03 > details download > 3DTransform-ar.4.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-02-03 22:30:54 > details download > 3DTransform-ar.2.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-02-03 18:46:50 > details download > Croquet-Contacts-ar.3.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-04-19 16:08:19 > details download > Croquet-Contacts-ar.2.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-03-31 16:04:03 > details download > Croquet-Contacts-ar.1.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-03-23 23:40:51 > details download > Croquet-Copier-ar.8.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-10-07 17:26:44 > details download > Croquet-Copier-bgf.7.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-09-25 17:47:15 > details download > Croquet-Copier-ar.6.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-04-04 20:58:13 > details download > Croquet-Copier-ar.5.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-03-07 22:02:55 > details download > Croquet-Copier-ar.4.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-02-03 18:47:13 > details download > Croquet-Demo-das.23.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-09-25 17:47:41 > details download > Croquet-Demo-ar.20.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-06-19 14:43:34 > details download > Croquet-Demo-ar.17.mcz Andreas Raab 2006-04-05 00:16:22 > details download > > > > Andreas, as you see no package said " OpenGL" in the provided link. > I'm not familiar with Croquet and my only interest is try on not Croquet > image (as Bert said). > > Cheers and continue good work (and be more nice with fools like me) > > Edgar > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Preguntá. Respondé. Descubrí. > Todo lo que querías saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, > está en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). > ¡Probalo ya! > http://www.yahoo.com.ar/respuestas > > -- Howard Stearns University of Wisconsin - Madison Division of Information Technology mailto:[hidden email] jabber:[hidden email] voice:+1-608-262-3724 |
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In reply to this post by Edgar J. De Cleene
Edgar J. De Cleene wrote:
> Andreas, as you see no package said " OpenGL" in the provided link. I think you should learn a little about using Squeaksource: "Versions" will display all the versions ever committed for each package in the given repository. In the hedgehog repository that takes about eight pages of stuff (if you look at the bottom you can see there are more pages than the first one) so just because you can't see a package on the very first page doesn't mean it's not there. However, more useful is "Latest" which will only display the latest committed version for each package in the repository. If you click on "Latest" you will see the OpenGL package on the first page, right at the bottom. Cheers, - Andreas |
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In reply to this post by Lord ZealoN
The Croquet Project is built on Squeak and goes FAR beyond the vast majority
of game engines, to the extent that "games like" those you've mentioned are really poised to become quite outdated. Take a look at the Croquet website (http://www.opencroquet.org/) as well as the Wikipedia Croquet entry for some ideas about the potential Squeak gives the creative game designer. The videos at http://www.lisarein.com/alankay/tour.html are a good introduction. All the best, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lord ZealoN" <[hidden email]> To: "The general-purpose Squeak developers list" <[hidden email]> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 8:24 AM Subject: Games with Squeak Well, here a question to discuss ¿What do you think about use Squeak for make professional games? (with actual VM or possible future StrongTalk VM) I'm not talking about something like MineSweeper or Solitarie. I'm talking about a game with good graphics to sell. MMORPG (Lineage 2, EntropiaUniverse, Life...), RTS (Starwars, Warcraft...), Turn-Based Games (UFO, Civilization....) -- ::Mi blog:: http://blog.lordzealon.com Linux-User: #370919 --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0641-4, 10/13/2006 Tested on: 10/13/06 6:06:01 PM avast! is copyright (c) 2000-2006 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com |
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In reply to this post by Edgar J. De Cleene
Andreas :
Apologize. I found OpenGL-ar.36.mcz in page 7. Edgar __________________________________________________ Preguntá. Respondé. Descubrí. Todo lo que querías saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, está en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). ¡Probalo ya! http://www.yahoo.com.ar/respuestas |
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In reply to this post by Lord ZealoN
> Lord,
> > I suspect which language you use is much less important than the tools > you use to make a professional game. The bar is very high and one > person, or even a small team, cannot make all the tools needed. Many > of those tools are purchase from 3rd parties for significant sums. At > least, that's true for the games that you mentioned. Also, quality of > game play is more important that the language it's written in, which > is a skill that takes years to learn by practice and failure and lots > of testing. For now, Smalltalk does not link to these tools very well. > Most are file based which is not so compatible with Smalltalk's image. > Managing large art content files and large quantities of them is > required which might put a strain on Smalltalk's memory management. > Professional games us a lot of tricks at the compiler level and code > architecture level to squeeze every bit of optimization at the expense > of ease of programming. I spoke about actual VM or Strongtalk because the speed of the VM for this things. > > Smalltalk's strength is that it's easy to change, but that may be a > weakness here. Often in professional games, you don't want the games > easy to change by the players because the temptation to cheat is too > large. I disagree. I know very goods games writen in python (ospace.net for example. The web is down now). Or python bindings for 3D engines, like Panda3D, or pyogre for OGRE3D. And, as all you say, squeak/smalltalk is faster than python > > If you have a game where it's good for the player to change the code, > then you may have an advantage with Smalltalk over other games. > I'm not thinking in develop a game (at the moment). Only I asked to myself about this, thinking in croquet but without collaboration. Croquet is a collaborative "space", I was talking about a solo/multiplayer game. I think smalltalk is great (well, forgot all the C/C++-VB-.NET-Java developers tells about it). And with an opengl bindings, ("easy" to do), and a "framework" upon it (not too easy), would be possible develop great games. With the croquet tools, the work about MDL files for example, are done, And Alice3D with Maxis in collaboration, would be a good tool. ODE is openSource and could be ported (well, but it's done i think) and Sound is done too. Multiplayer layer works (see Croquet) and Blender is the better opensource 3D suite, with scripts in python (easy to write an export to "squeak" files for example). Thinking in this, all the low layer, seems to be done, but, What about the speed?. I tried yesterday a "simple" application, BottomFeeder, writen in VisualWorks, and is slow. Then, a Game will be more slow than this. My knowledge about smalltalk is very low. I'm learning at slow steps because I don't have much time, but I'm ambitious. And I'm looking the Squeak's steps like an eagle :) Cheers. -- ::Mi blog:: http://blog.lordzealon.com Linux-User: #370919 |
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In reply to this post by Diego Fernández
Diego Fernandez a écrit :
> I would like to create something similar to the Damien's > ImageForDevelopers but... ImageForGameDevelopers ;) If you want to do it, you should use ImageForDevelopers (available in squeak source). Then, you just have to create a subclass and tell what packages you want to be part of your image. Some refactorings will be usefull too. Please ask if I can help. -- Damien Cassou |
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