Glorp license (was: Re: [smalltalk-research] Re: [Esug-list] Google Summer Of Code 2010 news!!!)

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Glorp license (was: Re: [smalltalk-research] Re: [Esug-list] Google Summer Of Code 2010 news!!!)

Torsten Bergmann
Dear all,

maybe we can ask Alan Knight if it would be possible to dual-license GLORP,
he gets a CC: of this mail. The project is currently LGPL [1] which may cause problems (according to the discussion on squeak-dev, see [2] and [3]).

GLORP was initially  a CampSmalltalk project and later continued at Cincom.

Thanks
Torsten

[1] http://sourceforge.net/projects/glorp/
[2] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2010-March/146035.html 
[3] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2010-March/146036.html
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Re: Glorp license

Randal L. Schwartz
>>>>> "Torsten" == Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]> writes:

Torsten> maybe we can ask Alan Knight if it would be possible to dual-license
Torsten> GLORP, he gets a CC: of this mail. The project is currently LGPL [1]
Torsten> which may cause problems (according to the discussion on squeak-dev,
Torsten> see [2] and [3]).

Torsten> GLORP was initially a CampSmalltalk project and later continued at
Torsten> Cincom.

Ugh.  Unfortuately, adding a license like that means getting signatures from
*all* contributors, unless they have all explicitly signed rights over to
Alan.

This is why it's important to get the license *right* to begin with, folks.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion

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Re: Glorp license

Alan Knight-2
Fortunately, Glorp doesn't have all that many distinct contributors, and I do have a reasonable number of signatures already. I've been thinking about changing the license for a while, but it's a lot of work, and not much fun. Any advice from those involved with doing this for Squeak  appreciated.

At 01:06 PM 2010-03-08, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>>>>> "Torsten" == Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]> writes:

Torsten> maybe we can ask Alan Knight if it would be possible to dual-license
Torsten> GLORP, he gets a CC: of this mail. The project is currently LGPL [1]
Torsten> which may cause problems (according to the discussion on squeak-dev,
Torsten> see [2] and [3]).

Torsten> GLORP was initially a CampSmalltalk project and later continued at
Torsten> Cincom.

Ugh.  Unfortuately, adding a license like that means getting signatures from
*all* contributors, unless they have all explicitly signed rights over to
Alan.

This is why it's important to get the license *right* to begin with, folks.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<[hidden email]> < URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion

--
Alan Knight [|], Engineering Manager, Cincom Smalltalk


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Re: Glorp license

Ken Causey-3
On Mon, 2010-03-08 at 14:54 -0500, Alan Knight wrote:

> Fortunately, Glorp doesn't have all that many distinct contributors,
> and I do have a reasonable number of signatures already. I've been
> thinking about changing the license for a while, but it's a lot of
> work, and not much fun. Any advice from those involved with doing this
> for Squeak  appreciated.
> --
> Alan Knight [|], Engineering Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
> [hidden email]
> [hidden email]
> http://www.cincom.com/smalltalk
Perhaps you could ask specific questions?  I don't understand where you
perceive there is a lot of work required.  Please feel free to correct
any misunderstandings on my part.  Also all of the below is my opinion
synthesized from various sources and opinions.

1. You have code under license A with X contributors.

2. You solicit to all contributors to have the license changed to
license B and request written/signed agreements to this effect.

3. You receive agreements from Y contributors.

4. Assuming Y < X you then have to decide for yourself what the risk is
that the one of the remaining contributors is likely to later object to
the license change.  If you deem the risk is too great:

  4a. How much code in the latest release is from the non-signing
contributors?  Note you need to count all versions of code and later
versions are 'tainted' by earlier contributors unless you can clearly
state that later versions were written without simply copying the
previous versions.  Given there is some such code, you could remove and
or replace it.  Best practice is to write a comment describing what the
method should do and writing the new version referencing only that
documentation.  Tests are of course handy to verify the implementation.

  4b.  If there is just too much left to rewrite then you go back to
step 2 and iterate until you are comfortable at step 4 or give up as an
impossible job.

5.  Assuming you have gotten past step 4 and are personally comfortable
with the result but Y < X is still true, write up a specific 'intent to
relicense' notice stating a specific date that a new relicensed version
will be released and do everything you can to ensure that all
contributors have seen it.  This is intended to give them an explicit
opportunity to disagree.  This is relevant 'due diligence' if a
complaint is received later.

6.  If no one disagreed then you issue the new release under license B.

Ken



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Re: Glorp license

Alan Knight-2
At 03:30 PM 2010-03-08, Ken Causey wrote:
On Mon, 2010-03-08 at 14:54 -0500, Alan Knight wrote:
> Fortunately, Glorp doesn't have all that many distinct contributors,
> and I do have a reasonable number of signatures already. I've been
> thinking about changing the license for a while, but it's a lot of
> work, and not much fun. Any advice from those involved with doing this
> for Squeak  appreciated.
> --
> Alan Knight [|], Engineering Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
> [hidden email]
> [hidden email]
> http://www.cincom.com/smalltalk

Perhaps you could ask specific questions?  I don't understand where you
perceive there is a lot of work required.  Please feel free to correct
any misunderstandings on my part.  Also all of the below is my opinion
synthesized from various sources and opinions.

1. You have code under license A with X contributors.

2. You solicit to all contributors to have the license changed to
license B and request written/signed agreements to this effect.

3. You receive agreements from Y contributors.

4. Assuming Y < X you then have to decide for yourself what the risk is
that the one of the remaining contributors is likely to later object to
the license change.  If you deem the risk is too great:

  4a. How much code in the latest release is from the non-signing
contributors?  Note you need to count all versions of code and later
versions are 'tainted' by earlier contributors unless you can clearly
state that later versions were written without simply copying the
previous versions.  Given there is some such code, you could remove and
or replace it.  Best practice is to write a comment describing what the
method should do and writing the new version referencing only that
documentation.  Tests are of course handy to verify the implementation.

  4b.  If there is just too much left to rewrite then you go back to
step 2 and iterate until you are comfortable at step 4 or give up as an
impossible job.

5.  Assuming you have gotten past step 4 and are personally comfortable
with the result but Y < X is still true, write up a specific 'intent to
relicense' notice stating a specific date that a new relicensed version
will be released and do everything you can to ensure that all
contributors have seen it.  This is intended to give them an explicit
opportunity to disagree.  This is relevant 'due diligence' if a
complaint is received later.

6.  If no one disagreed then you issue the new release under license B.

Ken

I guess my perception of it being onerous stems from a couple of things
  - The steps you outlined sound like a lot of work to me. Probably the largest amount is in the resolution of the phrase "X contributors" to a distinct set. And then figuring out how to contact them all.
  - I have faith in the legal system's ability to make things more complicated than it seems they ought to be.

But that sounds like a good recipe. Thanks.






--
Alan Knight [|], Engineering Manager, Cincom Smalltalk