Grafoscopio and the Data Week: Critical code+data literacy practices and pocket infrastructures from/for the Global South

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Grafoscopio and the Data Week: Critical code+data literacy practices and pocket infrastructures from/for the Global South

Offray

Hi,

Following the idea of talking about educational practices powered by (a flavor of) Smalltalk. I would like to share two of them, mainly by sharing some links and small phrases/paragraphs about the.

  • Grafoscopio [1] is what I call a "pocket infrastructure" for data activism, digital citizenship and reproducible research and publication. It tries to approach critically to the exclusionary "fashionist" concept of "Big Data", by arguing that other infrastructures and practices can bootstrap citizenship around data without being constrain by the size of data or the computational resources to process it. An example is the Panama Papers as reproducible research[2] project, that shows how this pocket infrastructures can be used, even in the case of the biggest data leak in the history of journalism.
  • The Data Week [3](Spanish) is a recurrent Hackathon+Workshop where people learn how to use, extend and modify Grafoscopio, so they can tell Data Stories to amplify their voices and community concerns. We choose problems where data and its visualizations give visibility to grassroots communities and help to bridge the gap between "user" and "maker", "coder" and "citizen", among others. We try make and enactive  critic of the (also) "fashionist" hackathon, going beyond the "pitch", or the meeting of "sleep deprived strangers" to create a "tech innovative solution" in a weekend to complex social problems. Next Data Week will overlap with the Open Data Day, and we are going to address the political discourse on Twitter, as a way to improve awareness on upcoming presidential elections in Colombia, but we think that this (pocket infrastructures) approach could be used as a way to use critical code+data digital literacy practices to enable informed citizenship discourse and voting in the times of social networks noise and post-truth.
  • Recently we have expanded our actions and infrastructures to the publishing field by going beyond "open access" (as promoted in practice by the Creative Commons movement) to "reproducible publishing". One example of that is the "Data Driven Journalism Handbook"[4] (Spanish). More are planed, using "remix-traslation" to bootstrap a more fluent South -> North dialog, because most of the ideas of Non-English and Non-Writing cultures are kept outside of the public discourse. By non-writing I mean cultures with strong and rich oral traditions, but low writing/publishing practices, let alone non-coding citizens in the Global South.

Grafoscopio and the Data Week are developed as part of my PhD research, where I ask about "how we can change the digital tools that change us?" (or the reciprocal modification between digital artifacts and communities of practice), in the context of a Hackerspace in the Global South (Bogotá, Colombia). Such research is informed by participatory action research, ethnography and design research traditions, and is trying to approach "wicked problems" to build a path in the present with possible and desirable futures. I'm now finishing to write the dissertation, so I'm tight on time, but I would be glad to keep this conversations (or others) going.

Links:

[1] http://mutabit.com/grafoscopio/index.en.html
[2] http://mutabit.com/offray/blog/en/entry/panama-papers-1
[3] http://mutabit.com/dataweek/
[4] http://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/mapeda/

Cheers,

Offray

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Re: Grafoscopio and the Data Week: Critical code+data literacy practices and pocket infrastructures from/for the Global South

Ron Teitelbaum
Hi Offray,

Looks like a wonderful project and an extremely important goal considering the state of the world today.  I hope to hear more about your dissertation.  I agree with the concept that having tools that allow for data collection and visualization to be used in a collaborative way would be an excellent way to build and create communities around activism.  I like the ideas around hacktivism allowing users with the technical knowledge to share their experience with researchers or even just a community that is crowdsourcing research to create powerful communication tools that have the potential to change the world.

All the best,

Ron Teitelbaum

On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 12:45 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

Following the idea of talking about educational practices powered by (a flavor of) Smalltalk. I would like to share two of them, mainly by sharing some links and small phrases/paragraphs about the.

  • Grafoscopio [1] is what I call a "pocket infrastructure" for data activism, digital citizenship and reproducible research and publication. It tries to approach critically to the exclusionary "fashionist" concept of "Big Data", by arguing that other infrastructures and practices can bootstrap citizenship around data without being constrain by the size of data or the computational resources to process it. An example is the Panama Papers as reproducible research[2] project, that shows how this pocket infrastructures can be used, even in the case of the biggest data leak in the history of journalism.
  • The Data Week [3](Spanish) is a recurrent Hackathon+Workshop where people learn how to use, extend and modify Grafoscopio, so they can tell Data Stories to amplify their voices and community concerns. We choose problems where data and its visualizations give visibility to grassroots communities and help to bridge the gap between "user" and "maker", "coder" and "citizen", among others. We try make and enactive  critic of the (also) "fashionist" hackathon, going beyond the "pitch", or the meeting of "sleep deprived strangers" to create a "tech innovative solution" in a weekend to complex social problems. Next Data Week will overlap with the Open Data Day, and we are going to address the political discourse on Twitter, as a way to improve awareness on upcoming presidential elections in Colombia, but we think that this (pocket infrastructures) approach could be used as a way to use critical code+data digital literacy practices to enable informed citizenship discourse and voting in the times of social networks noise and post-truth.
  • Recently we have expanded our actions and infrastructures to the publishing field by going beyond "open access" (as promoted in practice by the Creative Commons movement) to "reproducible publishing". One example of that is the "Data Driven Journalism Handbook"[4] (Spanish). More are planed, using "remix-traslation" to bootstrap a more fluent South -> North dialog, because most of the ideas of Non-English and Non-Writing cultures are kept outside of the public discourse. By non-writing I mean cultures with strong and rich oral traditions, but low writing/publishing practices, let alone non-coding citizens in the Global South.

Grafoscopio and the Data Week are developed as part of my PhD research, where I ask about "how we can change the digital tools that change us?" (or the reciprocal modification between digital artifacts and communities of practice), in the context of a Hackerspace in the Global South (Bogotá, Colombia). Such research is informed by participatory action research, ethnography and design research traditions, and is trying to approach "wicked problems" to build a path in the present with possible and desirable futures. I'm now finishing to write the dissertation, so I'm tight on time, but I would be glad to keep this conversations (or others) going.

Links:

[1] http://mutabit.com/grafoscopio/index.en.html
[2] http://mutabit.com/offray/blog/en/entry/panama-papers-1
[3] http://mutabit.com/dataweek/
[4] http://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/mapeda/

Cheers,

Offray

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Re: Grafoscopio and the Data Week: Critical code+data literacy practices and pocket infrastructures from/for the Global South

David T. Lewis
In reply to this post by Offray
This looks like very interesting work, and some very interesting ideas driving
the project.

Dave

On Mon, Feb 05, 2018 at 12:45:15PM -0500, Offray Vladimir Luna C??rdenas wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Following the idea of talking about educational practices powered by (a
> flavor of) Smalltalk. I would like to share two of them, mainly by
> sharing some links and small phrases/paragraphs about the.
>
>   * Grafoscopio [1] is what I call a "pocket infrastructure" for data
>     activism, digital citizenship and reproducible research and
>     publication. It tries to approach critically to the exclusionary
>     "fashionist" concept of "Big Data", by arguing that other
>     infrastructures and practices can bootstrap citizenship around data
>     without being constrain by the size of data or the computational
>     resources to process it. An example is the Panama Papers as
>     reproducible research[2] project, that shows how this pocket
>     infrastructures can be used, even in the case of the biggest data
>     leak in the history of journalism.
>   * The Data Week [3](Spanish) is a recurrent Hackathon+Workshop where
>     people learn how to use, extend and modify Grafoscopio, so they can
>     tell Data Stories to amplify their voices and community concerns. We
>     choose problems where data and its visualizations give visibility to
>     grassroots communities and help to bridge the gap between "user" and
>     "maker", "coder" and "citizen", among others. We try make and
>     enactive?? critic of the (also) "fashionist" hackathon, going beyond
>     the "pitch", or the meeting of "sleep deprived strangers" to create
>     a "tech innovative solution" in a weekend to complex social
>     problems. Next Data Week will overlap with the Open Data Day, and we
>     are going to address the political discourse on Twitter, as a way to
>     improve awareness on upcoming presidential elections in Colombia,
>     but we think that this (pocket infrastructures) approach could be
>     used as a way to use critical code+data digital literacy practices
>     to enable informed citizenship discourse and voting in the times of
>     social networks noise and post-truth.
>   * Recently we have expanded our actions and infrastructures to the
>     publishing field by going beyond "open access" (as promoted in
>     practice by the Creative Commons movement) to "reproducible
>     publishing". One example of that is the "Data Driven Journalism
>     Handbook"[4] (Spanish). More are planed, using "remix-traslation" to
>     bootstrap a more fluent South -> North dialog, because most of the
>     ideas of Non-English and Non-Writing cultures are kept outside of
>     the public discourse. By non-writing I mean cultures with strong and
>     rich oral traditions, but low writing/publishing practices, let
>     alone non-coding citizens in the Global South.
>
> Grafoscopio and the Data Week are developed as part of my PhD research,
> where I ask about "how we can change the digital tools that change us?"
> (or the reciprocal modification between digital artifacts and
> communities of practice), in the context of a Hackerspace in the Global
> South (Bogot??, Colombia). Such research is informed by participatory
> action research, ethnography and design research traditions, and is
> trying to approach "wicked problems" to build a path in the present with
> possible and desirable futures. I'm now finishing to write the
> dissertation, so I'm tight on time, but I would be glad to keep this
> conversations (or others) going.
>
> Links:
>
> [1] http://mutabit.com/grafoscopio/index.en.html
> [2] http://mutabit.com/offray/blog/en/entry/panama-papers-1
> [3] http://mutabit.com/dataweek/
> [4] http://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/mapeda/
>
> Cheers,
>
> Offray

> _______________________________________________
> Beginners mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

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Re: Grafoscopio and the Data Week: Critical code+data literacy practices and pocket infrastructures from/for the Global South

Joseph Alotta
In reply to this post by Offray
Offray,

I am sorry but I don’t understand what your project is about.   The words you use are very precise words that have a technical meaning that I do not possess.

Can you give us a simple example?  I am looking for the junior high school version of your explanation.

Sincerely,

Joseph.
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Re: Grafoscopio and the Data Week: Critical code+data literacy practices and pocket infrastructures from/for the Global South

Offray
Hi Joshep,

Thanks for your interest and sorry for the technicalities. Is some kind
of old bad habit from "academy and research" and their ivory towers
built with expert languages. I will try to explain myself and provide
more technical details in links. It doesn't help not being a native
English speaker neither, but I will try my best.

So, lets start with the idea of critical literacy practices. This idea
comes, mostly, from adults literacy. In such context, the teaching
practices developed with children don't work pretty well (or at all). So
the teachers of such practices don't start by teaching the basic of
letters and handwriting and syllables compositions and words, as used
with children education, or problems about adding numbers or planets
names and rotation trajectories. Paulo Freire[1], for example, started
with what he call "problemas generadores" (I don't know the English
translation, but is about problems that create more problems, usually
related with social and emotional issues), like reading the local
newspapers or writing/reading letters from/for the loved ones, working
such problems with poor people in rural Brasil. In such practices he
recognized that there is not such think as a "neutral" education
practice, and that education is about empowerment (or not) of the
oppressed. So, think in something like that, but instead of using
"classical" literacy for the printed world, we use practices related
with data and code for young and mature adults. In such endeavor we
don't start with the classical (and kind of dumb) "Hello world!"
introduction to computing [2], but with social problems and questions:
Do we and our politicians monologue or dialogue in social networks? How
our public money is spend? How much information release the governments
about medicine information[3]? Do you really need to have a lot of "Big
Data" to be a critical participant in the "information society"?

Once we have such questions, we start to get the proper vocabulary
(coding+data) to express our partial ideas using prototypes. For that,
we learn about Smalltalk basis, but instead of learning to create
"apps", we learn to create visualizations and to tell stories supported
by data. Some visualizations are the classical colored world map, like
the one in the Panama Papers example [4], but made with reproducibility
in mind. The idea is not only to publish a bitmap (png, jpeg) or vector
image (SVG, PDF), but to provide the complete rationale, data and code
behind such stories and visualizations. Other visualizations are custom
made, to express some kind of issue, like the one about medicines
released information[3] or our ways of communication in Twitter[5].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulo_Freire
[2] http://mutabit.com/offray/blog/en/entry/dumb-hello-world
[3] http://mutabit.com/offray/blog/en/entry/sdv-infomed
[4] http://mutabit.com/offray/blog/en/entry/panama-papers-1
[5] http://mutabit.com/offray/blog/en/entry/ds-twitter-mockup

Despite of not being directly inspired by the theories of Alan Kay or
Paulo Freire, I think that my research put some of their ideas into
dialogue. What would happen if we put the ideas of Dynabook, started
with kids ( and developed in the North) in dialogue with the ideas of
Critical Pedagogy, started with adults (and developed in the South) in
the current age of data? How new ways of civic participation are created
when people learn how to use data, code, visualization and storytelling
to talk about civic concerns?

I hope to be clearer, but let me know if I'm still in the Ivory Tower.

Thanks again,

Offray

On 05/02/18 20:24, Joseph Alotta wrote:

> Offray,
>
> I am sorry but I don’t understand what your project is about.   The words you use are very precise words that have a technical meaning that I do not possess.
>
> Can you give us a simple example?  I am looking for the junior high school version of your explanation.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Joseph.
> _______________________________________________
> Beginners mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners


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Re: Grafoscopio and the Data Week: Critical code+data literacy practices and pocket infrastructures from/for the Global South

Offray
Sorry for the typo, I meant Joseph.


On 05/02/18 21:09, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:
> Hi Joshep,

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Re: Grafoscopio and the Data Week: Critical code+data literacy practices and pocket infrastructures from/for the Global South

Ron Teitelbaum
Offray,

Are you signed up on the squeak-dev mailing list or just beginners?  I think the members of the Squeak-Dev list would enjoy having you there!  You would also get more feedback from that group.

All the best,

Ron

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sorry for the typo, I meant Joseph.


On 05/02/18 21:09, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:
> Hi Joshep,

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Re: Grafoscopio and the Data Week: Critical code+data literacy practices and pocket infrastructures from/for the Global South

Offray

Hi Ron,

I'm just in the beginners list (when I subscribed I was a beginner and I never thought of myself as a developer). I have seen the dev list, but there is a lot of automatic mail send by commit activity. I'm not sure if I want such traffic in my mail inbox.

Anyway, having proper feedback places is important and I wonder if some kind of middle place between developers and beginners is needed. In the Pharo case, the users list has pretty good activity without details about commits. Maybe beginners is misleading and we need a users list or setup something like discourse[1] to improve communication. In the Manjaro case, it has worked pretty well[2] (but, of course, infrastructure by itself is not a warranty).

[1] https://www.discourse.org/
[2] http://forum.manjaro.org/

Cheers,

Offray


On 06/02/18 10:51, Ron Teitelbaum wrote:
Offray,

Are you signed up on the squeak-dev mailing list or just beginners?  I think the members of the Squeak-Dev list would enjoy having you there!  You would also get more feedback from that group.

All the best,

Ron

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sorry for the typo, I meant Joseph.


On 05/02/18 21:09, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:
> Hi Joshep,

_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners



_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners


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Re: Grafoscopio and the Data Week: Critical code+data literacy practices and pocket infrastructures from/for the Global South

Herbert König

Hi Offray,


Squeak dev always has been the place to be and newbies was just invented to have a lower hurdle on entry.

For the automatic traffic there's (spam) filters in your mail program.


Please feel free move over, we are not so many in our community that separate lists are needed.


My 2c.

Cheers,


Herbert


Am 06.02.2018 um 17:13 schrieb Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas:

Hi Ron,

I'm just in the beginners list (when I subscribed I was a beginner and I never thought of myself as a developer). I have seen the dev list, but there is a lot of automatic mail send by commit activity. I'm not sure if I want such traffic in my mail inbox.

Anyway, having proper feedback places is important and I wonder if some kind of middle place between developers and beginners is needed. In the Pharo case, the users list has pretty good activity without details about commits. Maybe beginners is misleading and we need a users list or setup something like discourse[1] to improve communication. In the Manjaro case, it has worked pretty well[2] (but, of course, infrastructure by itself is not a warranty).

[1] https://www.discourse.org/
[2] http://forum.manjaro.org/

Cheers,

Offray


On 06/02/18 10:51, Ron Teitelbaum wrote:
Offray,

Are you signed up on the squeak-dev mailing list or just beginners?  I think the members of the Squeak-Dev list would enjoy having you there!  You would also get more feedback from that group.

All the best,

Ron

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sorry for the typo, I meant Joseph.


On 05/02/18 21:09, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:
> Hi Joshep,

_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners



_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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Re: Grafoscopio and the Data Week: Critical code+data literacy practices and pocket infrastructures from/for the Global South

Offray

Thanks Ron and Herbert,

I would rater try to improve a "users lists" that filter commits in a dev-list. That's one of the interesting points of systems like discourse: you can create subthreads for particular information and connect or not to them, create hooks and get only the information you are interested in.

Seems that we have plenty of channels and I don't know if one more is going to help with the problem of more fluid communication in the community that helps with dynamics of governance (like voting). In the case of Manjaro, I was already in an old forum that was migrated to discourse, so I don't know a lot about details on managing Spam. Discourse have spam filters activate and you only get to post a lot of information with links, if you have interacted with the community enough, with preset rules. That means that your first post, as a member could have maybe two links, but you can not start to put a lot of links in the same post, unless you gain some reputation, which discourages spammers.

For me the important thing is: can we have a more permanent and fluid conversation that shows the pulse and vitality of this community? If the way to do it is to be in the developers list, filter commits with extra technical info, and having a beginners list with almost no entries, so we are not addressing properly the transitions and middle places between users and developers: you have too much info or too little. More granular information is a place where forums like discourse could help.

Cheers,

Offray


On 06/02/18 12:53, Ron Teitelbaum wrote:
Hi Offray, 

I like the idea of forums. Always have.  Did the Manjaro community have trouble with spam?  How is it moderated?  Email lists seem to be less vulnerable to spam, although we have received some in the past.  Forums seem to need constant moderation to ensure they are not invaded by spam.  I seem to remember there was a forum way back when. There is a forum interface to the mailing list already: http://forum.world.st/Squeak-Beginners-f107673.html.  What do you think Discourse would add to the community over what we have already?  

Also, note there are a few other places where we sort of gather. #IRC #squeak http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/squeak/ don't see much going on there.  Google Plus Group: https://plus.google.com/u/1/communities/111117917267462353507. Twitter https://twitter.com/SqueakSmalltalk. Planet Squeak: http://planet.squeak.org/ and https://news.squeak.org/ wow it has been a long time since I made a post!  

I imagine someone probably did a slack channel.  Yes I was correct: http://squeak.org/community/ 

All the best,

Ron Teitelbaum



On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Herbert König <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Offray,


Squeak dev always has been the place to be and newbies was just invented to have a lower hurdle on entry.

For the automatic traffic there's (spam) filters in your mail program.


Please feel free move over, we are not so many in our community that separate lists are needed.


My 2c.

Cheers,


Herbert


Am 06.02.2018 um 17:13 schrieb Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas:

Hi Ron,

I'm just in the beginners list (when I subscribed I was a beginner and I never thought of myself as a developer). I have seen the dev list, but there is a lot of automatic mail send by commit activity. I'm not sure if I want such traffic in my mail inbox.

Anyway, having proper feedback places is important and I wonder if some kind of middle place between developers and beginners is needed. In the Pharo case, the users list has pretty good activity without details about commits. Maybe beginners is misleading and we need a users list or setup something like discourse[1] to improve communication. In the Manjaro case, it has worked pretty well[2] (but, of course, infrastructure by itself is not a warranty).

[1] https://www.discourse.org/
[2] http://forum.manjaro.org/

Cheers,

Offray


On 06/02/18 10:51, Ron Teitelbaum wrote:
Offray,

Are you signed up on the squeak-dev mailing list or just beginners?  I think the members of the Squeak-Dev list would enjoy having you there!  You would also get more feedback from that group.

All the best,

Ron

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sorry for the typo, I meant Joseph.


On 05/02/18 21:09, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:
> Hi Joshep,

_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners



_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners



_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners


_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners




_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners


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Re: Grafoscopio and the Data Week: Critical code+data literacy practices and pocket infrastructures from/for the Global South

Herbert König

Hi Offray,

to make my point more explicit:

IMO our community is small and fragmentation (of communication channels) is not helpful. There are some 'special' concerns like VMDev and Beginners that 'justify' their own channels but most additional Squeak channels have dried out quickly.

Should have said this in the first place instead of giving tips how to mitigate what you seemed to dislike on Squeak dev. :-))

Cheers,

Herbert 


Am 06.02.2018 um 20:53 schrieb Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas:

Thanks Ron and Herbert,

I would rater try to improve a "users lists" that filter commits in a dev-list. That's one of the interesting points of systems like discourse: you can create subthreads for particular information and connect or not to them, create hooks and get only the information you are interested in.

Seems that we have plenty of channels and I don't know if one more is going to help with the problem of more fluid communication in the community that helps with dynamics of governance (like voting). In the case of Manjaro, I was already in an old forum that was migrated to discourse, so I don't know a lot about details on managing Spam. Discourse have spam filters activate and you only get to post a lot of information with links, if you have interacted with the community enough, with preset rules. That means that your first post, as a member could have maybe two links, but you can not start to put a lot of links in the same post, unless you gain some reputation, which discourages spammers.

For me the important thing is: can we have a more permanent and fluid conversation that shows the pulse and vitality of this community? If the way to do it is to be in the developers list, filter commits with extra technical info, and having a beginners list with almost no entries, so we are not addressing properly the transitions and middle places between users and developers: you have too much info or too little. More granular information is a place where forums like discourse could help.

Cheers,

Offray


On 06/02/18 12:53, Ron Teitelbaum wrote:
Hi Offray, 

I like the idea of forums. Always have.  Did the Manjaro community have trouble with spam?  How is it moderated?  Email lists seem to be less vulnerable to spam, although we have received some in the past.  Forums seem to need constant moderation to ensure they are not invaded by spam.  I seem to remember there was a forum way back when. There is a forum interface to the mailing list already: http://forum.world.st/Squeak-Beginners-f107673.html.  What do you think Discourse would add to the community over what we have already?  

Also, note there are a few other places where we sort of gather. #IRC #squeak http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/squeak/ don't see much going on there.  Google Plus Group: https://plus.google.com/u/1/communities/111117917267462353507. Twitter https://twitter.com/SqueakSmalltalk. Planet Squeak: http://planet.squeak.org/ and https://news.squeak.org/ wow it has been a long time since I made a post!  

I imagine someone probably did a slack channel.  Yes I was correct: http://squeak.org/community/ 

All the best,

Ron Teitelbaum



On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Herbert König <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Offray,


Squeak dev always has been the place to be and newbies was just invented to have a lower hurdle on entry.

For the automatic traffic there's (spam) filters in your mail program.


Please feel free move over, we are not so many in our community that separate lists are needed.


My 2c.

Cheers,


Herbert


Am 06.02.2018 um 17:13 schrieb Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas:

Hi Ron,

I'm just in the beginners list (when I subscribed I was a beginner and I never thought of myself as a developer). I have seen the dev list, but there is a lot of automatic mail send by commit activity. I'm not sure if I want such traffic in my mail inbox.

Anyway, having proper feedback places is important and I wonder if some kind of middle place between developers and beginners is needed. In the Pharo case, the users list has pretty good activity without details about commits. Maybe beginners is misleading and we need a users list or setup something like discourse[1] to improve communication. In the Manjaro case, it has worked pretty well[2] (but, of course, infrastructure by itself is not a warranty).

[1] https://www.discourse.org/
[2] http://forum.manjaro.org/

Cheers,

Offray


On 06/02/18 10:51, Ron Teitelbaum wrote:
Offray,

Are you signed up on the squeak-dev mailing list or just beginners?  I think the members of the Squeak-Dev list would enjoy having you there!  You would also get more feedback from that group.

All the best,

Ron

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sorry for the typo, I meant Joseph.


On 05/02/18 21:09, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:
> Hi Joshep,

_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners



_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners



_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners


_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners




_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners



_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners


_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
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Re: Grafoscopio and the Data Week: Critical code+data literacy practices and pocket infrastructures from/for the Global South

Offray

Hi Herbert,

I understand. That confirms my initial assertion, when I said that "I changed, but community was kind of the same". I'm not a developer, but some kind of old user coming back (but not a beginner, anymore). I don't think that there is a need for a new list. Maybe just talking here of more advanced topics here will show that beginners change, without becoming devs ;-).

Cheers,

Offray


On 06/02/18 17:22, Herbert König wrote:

Hi Offray,

to make my point more explicit:

IMO our community is small and fragmentation (of communication channels) is not helpful. There are some 'special' concerns like VMDev and Beginners that 'justify' their own channels but most additional Squeak channels have dried out quickly.

Should have said this in the first place instead of giving tips how to mitigate what you seemed to dislike on Squeak dev. :-))

Cheers,

Herbert 


Am 06.02.2018 um 20:53 schrieb Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas:

Thanks Ron and Herbert,

I would rater try to improve a "users lists" that filter commits in a dev-list. That's one of the interesting points of systems like discourse: you can create subthreads for particular information and connect or not to them, create hooks and get only the information you are interested in.

Seems that we have plenty of channels and I don't know if one more is going to help with the problem of more fluid communication in the community that helps with dynamics of governance (like voting). In the case of Manjaro, I was already in an old forum that was migrated to discourse, so I don't know a lot about details on managing Spam. Discourse have spam filters activate and you only get to post a lot of information with links, if you have interacted with the community enough, with preset rules. That means that your first post, as a member could have maybe two links, but you can not start to put a lot of links in the same post, unless you gain some reputation, which discourages spammers.

For me the important thing is: can we have a more permanent and fluid conversation that shows the pulse and vitality of this community? If the way to do it is to be in the developers list, filter commits with extra technical info, and having a beginners list with almost no entries, so we are not addressing properly the transitions and middle places between users and developers: you have too much info or too little. More granular information is a place where forums like discourse could help.

Cheers,

Offray


On 06/02/18 12:53, Ron Teitelbaum wrote:
Hi Offray, 

I like the idea of forums. Always have.  Did the Manjaro community have trouble with spam?  How is it moderated?  Email lists seem to be less vulnerable to spam, although we have received some in the past.  Forums seem to need constant moderation to ensure they are not invaded by spam.  I seem to remember there was a forum way back when. There is a forum interface to the mailing list already: http://forum.world.st/Squeak-Beginners-f107673.html.  What do you think Discourse would add to the community over what we have already?  

Also, note there are a few other places where we sort of gather. #IRC #squeak http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/squeak/ don't see much going on there.  Google Plus Group: https://plus.google.com/u/1/communities/111117917267462353507. Twitter https://twitter.com/SqueakSmalltalk. Planet Squeak: http://planet.squeak.org/ and https://news.squeak.org/ wow it has been a long time since I made a post!  

I imagine someone probably did a slack channel.  Yes I was correct: http://squeak.org/community/ 

All the best,

Ron Teitelbaum



On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Herbert König <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Offray,


Squeak dev always has been the place to be and newbies was just invented to have a lower hurdle on entry.

For the automatic traffic there's (spam) filters in your mail program.


Please feel free move over, we are not so many in our community that separate lists are needed.


My 2c.

Cheers,


Herbert


Am 06.02.2018 um 17:13 schrieb Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas:

Hi Ron,

I'm just in the beginners list (when I subscribed I was a beginner and I never thought of myself as a developer). I have seen the dev list, but there is a lot of automatic mail send by commit activity. I'm not sure if I want such traffic in my mail inbox.

Anyway, having proper feedback places is important and I wonder if some kind of middle place between developers and beginners is needed. In the Pharo case, the users list has pretty good activity without details about commits. Maybe beginners is misleading and we need a users list or setup something like discourse[1] to improve communication. In the Manjaro case, it has worked pretty well[2] (but, of course, infrastructure by itself is not a warranty).

[1] https://www.discourse.org/
[2] http://forum.manjaro.org/

Cheers,

Offray


On 06/02/18 10:51, Ron Teitelbaum wrote:
Offray,

Are you signed up on the squeak-dev mailing list or just beginners?  I think the members of the Squeak-Dev list would enjoy having you there!  You would also get more feedback from that group.

All the best,

Ron

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sorry for the typo, I meant Joseph.


On 05/02/18 21:09, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:
> Hi Joshep,

_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners



_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners



_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners


_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners




_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners



_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners



_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners


_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners