Help needed on reply about squeak

> I received a reply on another mailing list from a person who  
> appears to have installed and briefly tried squeak, but had some  
> negative comments. I was wondering if others here could comment on  
> his reply about squeak and I'll condense a msg to him and send it  
> out to the mailing list.
>
> The original msg was a request (from someone else) asking about  
> audio software for children - the thread also included general  
> software for children.
>
> Here's his short msg:
>
> ===
> Just installed it. A very creative but frustrating package. As with  
> too many of these things, one must be able to read and that in  
> English (or a few European languages?). Fine print abounds in what  
> at first looks like a very sparse UI.
>
> The program abounds with objects and widgets. Some very creative and
> versatile, others frustratingly crude. Graphic objects like squares  
> cannot be resized (nothing stops one from reprogramming them and  
> then dutifully uploading the scalable versions for others to enjoy--
> smalltalk was once the rage.)
>
> Smalltalk 80 is, well, 26 years old. Before Unicode so is  
> incompatable with mutlingual keyboard choices. No Hebrew for my  
> daughter, not in UI and cannot type it in to text objects either.  
> Truetype fonts (newer than smalltalk80) are beatutiful but they are  
> also Unicode based nowadays.
>
> I think most kids would enjoy trying various widgets but run out of  
> patience doing anything more with them. Most adults would as well.
>
> --
>
>

>I received a reply on another mailing list from a person who appears to
>have installed and briefly tried squeak, but had some negative comments.
>I was wondering if others here could comment on his reply about squeak
>and I'll condense a msg to him and send it out to the mailing list.
>
>The original msg was a request (from someone else) asking about audio
>software for children - the thread also included general software for
>children.
>
>Here's his short msg:
>
>===
>Just installed it. A very creative but frustrating package. As with too
>many of these things, one must be able to read and that in English (or a
>few European languages?). Fine print abounds in what at first looks like
>a very sparse UI.
>
>The program abounds with objects and widgets. Some very creative and
>versatile, others frustratingly crude. Graphic objects like squares
>cannot be resized (nothing stops one from reprogramming them and then
>dutifully uploading the scalable versions for others to enjoy--smalltalk
>was once the rage.)
>
>Smalltalk 80 is, well, 26 years old. Before Unicode so is incompatable
>with mutlingual keyboard choices. No Hebrew for my daughter, not in UI
>and cannot type it in to text objects either. Truetype fonts (newer than
>smalltalk80) are beatutiful but they are also Unicode based nowadays.
>
>I think most kids would enjoy trying various widgets but run out of
>patience doing anything more with them. Most adults would as well.
>
>--
>
>_______________________________________________
>Squeakland mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland

> Hi --
>
> We could use lots more documentation in lots more languages most  
> certainly. It would be nice to have all the writing systems of the  
> world available and usable (the OLPC machine will probably force us  
> to do that).
>
> I think he missed the book "Powerful Ideas in the Classroom" which  
> would give him a start with his daughter (and for himself). Etoys  
> is not at all about widgets, just the opposite. He also seems to  
> have missed the tutorials that are on the website.
>
> I don't understand the comment, "squares aren't resizable".
>
> He should be encouraged to try a little harder.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Alan
>
> At 07:39 AM 12/11/2006, Brad Fuller wrote:
>> I received a reply on another mailing list from a person who  
>> appears to
>> have installed and briefly tried squeak, but had some negative  
>> comments.
>> I was wondering if others here could comment on his reply about  
>> squeak
>> and I'll condense a msg to him and send it out to the mailing list.
>>
>> The original msg was a request (from someone else) asking about audio
>> software for children - the thread also included general software for
>> children.
>>
>> Here's his short msg:
>>
>> ===
>> Just installed it. A very creative but frustrating package. As  
>> with too
>> many of these things, one must be able to read and that in English  
>> (or a
>> few European languages?). Fine print abounds in what at first  
>> looks like
>> a very sparse UI.
>>
>> The program abounds with objects and widgets. Some very creative and
>> versatile, others frustratingly crude. Graphic objects like squares
>> cannot be resized (nothing stops one from reprogramming them and then
>> dutifully uploading the scalable versions for others to enjoy--
>> smalltalk
>> was once the rage.)
>>
>> Smalltalk 80 is, well, 26 years old. Before Unicode so is  
>> incompatable
>> with mutlingual keyboard choices. No Hebrew for my daughter, not  
>> in UI
>> and cannot type it in to text objects either. Truetype fonts  
>> (newer than
>> smalltalk80) are beatutiful but they are also Unicode based nowadays.
>>
>> I think most kids would enjoy trying various widgets but run out of
>> patience doing anything more with them. Most adults would as well.
>>
>> --
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Squeakland mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
>
>

>
> He should be encouraged to try a little harder.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Alan
>
> At 07:39 AM 12/11/2006, Brad Fuller wrote:
>> I received a reply on another mailing list from a person who appears to
>> have installed and briefly tried squeak, but had some negative comments.
>> I was wondering if others here could comment on his reply about squeak
>> and I'll condense a msg to him and send it out to the mailing list.
>>
>> The original msg was a request (from someone else) asking about audio
>> software for children - the thread also included general software for
>> children.
>>
>> Here's his short msg:
>>
>> ===
>> Just installed it. A very creative but frustrating package. As with too
>> many of these things, one must be able to read and that in English (or a
>> few European languages?). Fine print abounds in what at first looks like
>> a very sparse UI.
>>
>> The program abounds with objects and widgets. Some very creative and
>> versatile, others frustratingly crude. Graphic objects like squares
>> cannot be resized (nothing stops one from reprogramming them and then
>> dutifully uploading the scalable versions for others to enjoy--smalltalk
>> was once the rage.)
>>
>> Smalltalk 80 is, well, 26 years old. Before Unicode so is incompatable
>> with mutlingual keyboard choices. No Hebrew for my daughter, not in UI
>> and cannot type it in to text objects either. Truetype fonts (newer than
>> smalltalk80) are beatutiful but they are also Unicode based nowadays.
>>
>> I think most kids would enjoy trying various widgets but run out of
>> patience doing anything more with them. Most adults would as well.
>>

> What would be really helpful is some tutorial projects that are
> downloaded right with the etoys installation. That is what we're doing
> with the OLPC version, for which we also are working on better language
> rendering support.
>
> The OLPC etoys version should run fine on any machine. But making the
> example projects appear in the general projects list requires some work,
> and making the font choices configurable (they are set up for a 200 dpi
> screen now) would also be necessary. A plan of action would be for
> someone to make a nice general etoys package from that version:
>
>     http://etoys.laptop.org/src/etoys-image-and-pr.zip
>
> Or rather from the etoys-dev image which includes source files at
>
>     http://tinlizzie.org/olpc/
>
> We (VPRI hackers) can certainly assist with that, though our main focus
> is the actual kid's machine right now.

> Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>> What would be really helpful is some tutorial projects that are  
>> downloaded right with the etoys installation. That is what we're  
>> doing with the OLPC version, for which we also are working on  
>> better language rendering support.
>> The OLPC etoys version should run fine on any machine. But making  
>> the example projects appear in the general projects list requires  
>> some work, and making the font choices configurable (they are set  
>> up for a 200 dpi screen now) would also be necessary. A plan of  
>> action would be for someone to make a nice general etoys package  
>> from that version:
>>     http://etoys.laptop.org/src/etoys-image-and-pr.zip
>> Or rather from the etoys-dev image which includes source files at
>>     http://tinlizzie.org/olpc/
>> We (VPRI hackers) can certainly assist with that, though our main  
>> focus is the actual kid's machine right now.
>
> I did mention they could easily download OLPC etoys using yum. I  
> will reiterate this fact. BTW, is there anything specific to FC5?  
> That is, can other distros dnl from the repo and execute OLPC etoys?

>
> On Dec 11, 2006, at 9:42 , Brad Fuller wrote:
>
>> Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>>> What would be really helpful is some tutorial projects that are  
>>> downloaded right with the etoys installation. That is what we're  
>>> doing with the OLPC version, for which we also are working on  
>>> better language rendering support.
>>> The OLPC etoys version should run fine on any machine. But making  
>>> the example projects appear in the general projects list requires  
>>> some work, and making the font choices configurable (they are set  
>>> up for a 200 dpi screen now) would also be necessary. A plan of  
>>> action would be for someone to make a nice general etoys package  
>>> from that version:
>>>     http://etoys.laptop.org/src/etoys-image-and-pr.zip
>>> Or rather from the etoys-dev image which includes source files at
>>>     http://tinlizzie.org/olpc/
>>> We (VPRI hackers) can certainly assist with that, though our main  
>>> focus is the actual kid's machine right now.
>>
>> I did mention they could easily download OLPC etoys using yum. I  
>> will reiterate this fact. BTW, is there anything specific to FC5?  
>> That is, can other distros dnl from the repo and execute OLPC etoys?
>
> I don't think there is nothing FC5 specific in there. You can run  
> Etoys outside of Sugar by typing "etoys" on the command line.

> Alan Kay wrote:
>> Hi --
>>
>> We could use lots more documentation in lots more languages most
>> certainly. It would be nice to have all the writing systems of the world
>> available and usable (the OLPC machine will probably force us to do that).
>
> I don't know much about Unicode and the multi-language support in
> squeak. I was hoping that someone knowledgeable in this area could give
> me a link or clue as to where to look so I could prepare a proper
> response to his concerns. Especially if someone has a Hebrew version.

> Brad Fuller wrote:
>> Alan Kay wrote:
>>> Hi --
>>>
>>> We could use lots more documentation in lots more languages most
>>> certainly. It would be nice to have all the writing systems of the
>>> world available and usable (the OLPC machine will probably force us
>>> to do that).
>>
>> I don't know much about Unicode and the multi-language support in
>> squeak. I was hoping that someone knowledgeable in this area could
>> give me a link or clue as to where to look so I could prepare a
>> proper response to his concerns. Especially if someone has a Hebrew
>> version.
>
> I found multilingual info on the swiki, as well has truetype font usage.
> And have sent the reply. I didn't find any links about Hebrew, though.
> If anyone knows, I'll pass it along.
>
> thanks for your help!
> brad
>

> On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 21:40:39 +0100, karl <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  
>> Daniel Vainsencher has mentioned something about hebrew on Squeak sometime.
>> Do I remember right ?
>>    
>
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2003-October/068401.html
>
> Later,
> Jon
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>    Jon Hylands      [hidden email]      http://www.huv.com/jon
>
>   Project: Micro Seeker (Micro Autonomous Underwater Vehicle)
>            http://www.huv.com
>
>
>  

>
> On Dec 11, 2006, at 9:42 , Brad Fuller wrote:
>
>> Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>>> What would be really helpful is some tutorial projects that are  
>>> downloaded right with the etoys installation. That is what we're  
>>> doing with the OLPC version, for which we also are working on  
>>> better language rendering support.
>>> The OLPC etoys version should run fine on any machine. But making  
>>> the example projects appear in the general projects list requires  
>>> some work, and making the font choices configurable (they are set  
>>> up for a 200 dpi screen now) would also be necessary. A plan of  
>>> action would be for someone to make a nice general etoys package  
>>> from that version:
>>>     http://etoys.laptop.org/src/etoys-image-and-pr.zip
>>> Or rather from the etoys-dev image which includes source files at
>>>     http://tinlizzie.org/olpc/
>>> We (VPRI hackers) can certainly assist with that, though our main  
>>> focus is the actual kid's machine right now.
>>
>> I did mention they could easily download OLPC etoys using yum. I  
>> will reiterate this fact. BTW, is there anything specific to FC5?  
>> That is, can other distros dnl from the repo and execute OLPC etoys?
>
> I don't think there is nothing FC5 specific in there. You can run  
> Etoys outside of Sugar by typing "etoys" on the command line.

> Hi,
>
>
> I have developped V-toys a visual programming language built with E-TOYS  and compatible with them.
>
> V-toys is using tiles with icones instead of text.
>
> So it is international and understandable in any language and project can be shared esily.
>
>  
> I have translatede the car project which is the v-toys version of the car piloted by the joystick
> http://ofset.org:8000/super/213
>
>
> You'll find more documentation here
> http://community.ofset.org/wiki/V-toys
>
> Sorry, the documentation is in french but there are lot of pictures and many projects that you can download and try.Be carefull when you save a project, ever stay down on the publish button to get the menu and choose publish on a different server.
>
>
> If you just hit Publish, the project will be saved back on the server. In this case, immediately hit atlt/dot or apple/dot to stop the process.
>
> Regards
> -------- Message d'origine--------
> De: [hidden email] de la part de Bert Freudenberg
> Date: lun. 11/12/2006 19:00
> À: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Objet : Re: [Squeakland] Help needed on reply about squeak
>  
>
> On Dec 11, 2006, at 9:50 , Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>
>  
>> On Dec 11, 2006, at 9:42 , Brad Fuller wrote:
>>
>>    
>>> Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>>>      
>>>> What would be really helpful is some tutorial projects that are  
>>>> downloaded right with the etoys installation. That is what we're  
>>>> doing with the OLPC version, for which we also are working on  
>>>> better language rendering support.
>>>> The OLPC etoys version should run fine on any machine. But making  
>>>> the example projects appear in the general projects list requires  
>>>> some work, and making the font choices configurable (they are set  
>>>> up for a 200 dpi screen now) would also be necessary. A plan of  
>>>> action would be for someone to make a nice general etoys package  
>>>> from that version:
>>>>     http://etoys.laptop.org/src/etoys-image-and-pr.zip
>>>> Or rather from the etoys-dev image which includes source files at
>>>>     http://tinlizzie.org/olpc/
>>>> We (VPRI hackers) can certainly assist with that, though our main  
>>>> focus is the actual kid's machine right now.
>>>>        
>>> I did mention they could easily download OLPC etoys using yum. I  
>>> will reiterate this fact. BTW, is there anything specific to FC5?  
>>> That is, can other distros dnl from the repo and execute OLPC etoys?
>>>      
>> I don't think there is nothing FC5 specific in there. You can run  
>> Etoys outside of Sugar by typing "etoys" on the command line.
>>    
>
> That should have been "I don't think there is anything". Or "I think  
> there is nothing".
>
> - Bert -
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Squeakland mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
>
>
>
>