Help needed on reply about squeak

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Help needed on reply about squeak

Brad Fuller
I received a reply on another mailing list from a person who appears to
have installed and briefly tried squeak, but had some negative comments.
I was wondering if others here could comment on his reply about squeak
and I'll condense a msg to him and send it out to the mailing list.

The original msg was a request (from someone else) asking about audio
software for children - the thread also included general software for
children.

Here's his short msg:

===
Just installed it. A very creative but frustrating package. As with too
many of these things, one must be able to read and that in English (or a
few European languages?). Fine print abounds in what at first looks like
a very sparse UI.

The program abounds with objects and widgets. Some very creative and
versatile, others frustratingly crude. Graphic objects like squares
cannot be resized (nothing stops one from reprogramming them and then
dutifully uploading the scalable versions for others to enjoy--smalltalk
was once the rage.)

Smalltalk 80 is, well, 26 years old. Before Unicode so is incompatable
with mutlingual keyboard choices. No Hebrew for my daughter, not in UI
and cannot type it in to text objects either. Truetype fonts (newer than
smalltalk80) are beatutiful but they are also Unicode based nowadays.

I think most kids would enjoy trying various widgets but run out of
patience doing anything more with them. Most adults would as well.

--


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Re: Help needed on reply about squeak

Bert Freudenberg
What would be really helpful is some tutorial projects that are  
downloaded right with the etoys installation. That is what we're  
doing with the OLPC version, for which we also are working on better  
language rendering support.

The OLPC etoys version should run fine on any machine. But making the  
example projects appear in the general projects list requires some  
work, and making the font choices configurable (they are set up for a  
200 dpi screen now) would also be necessary. A plan of action would  
be for someone to make a nice general etoys package from that version:

        http://etoys.laptop.org/src/etoys-image-and-pr.zip

Or rather from the etoys-dev image which includes source files at

        http://tinlizzie.org/olpc/

We (VPRI hackers) can certainly assist with that, though our main  
focus is the actual kid's machine right now.

- Bert -

On Dec 11, 2006, at 7:39 , Brad Fuller wrote:

> I received a reply on another mailing list from a person who  
> appears to have installed and briefly tried squeak, but had some  
> negative comments. I was wondering if others here could comment on  
> his reply about squeak and I'll condense a msg to him and send it  
> out to the mailing list.
>
> The original msg was a request (from someone else) asking about  
> audio software for children - the thread also included general  
> software for children.
>
> Here's his short msg:
>
> ===
> Just installed it. A very creative but frustrating package. As with  
> too many of these things, one must be able to read and that in  
> English (or a few European languages?). Fine print abounds in what  
> at first looks like a very sparse UI.
>
> The program abounds with objects and widgets. Some very creative and
> versatile, others frustratingly crude. Graphic objects like squares  
> cannot be resized (nothing stops one from reprogramming them and  
> then dutifully uploading the scalable versions for others to enjoy--
> smalltalk was once the rage.)
>
> Smalltalk 80 is, well, 26 years old. Before Unicode so is  
> incompatable with mutlingual keyboard choices. No Hebrew for my  
> daughter, not in UI and cannot type it in to text objects either.  
> Truetype fonts (newer than smalltalk80) are beatutiful but they are  
> also Unicode based nowadays.
>
> I think most kids would enjoy trying various widgets but run out of  
> patience doing anything more with them. Most adults would as well.
>
> --
>
>




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Re: [Squeakland] Help needed on reply about squeak

Alan Kay
In reply to this post by Brad Fuller
Hi --

We could use lots more documentation in lots more languages most
certainly. It would be nice to have all the writing systems of the
world available and usable (the OLPC machine will probably force us
to do that).

I think he missed the book "Powerful Ideas in the Classroom" which
would give him a start with his daughter (and for himself). Etoys is
not at all about widgets, just the opposite. He also seems to have
missed the tutorials that are on the website.

I don't understand the comment, "squares aren't resizable".

He should be encouraged to try a little harder.

Cheers,

Alan

At 07:39 AM 12/11/2006, Brad Fuller wrote:

>I received a reply on another mailing list from a person who appears to
>have installed and briefly tried squeak, but had some negative comments.
>I was wondering if others here could comment on his reply about squeak
>and I'll condense a msg to him and send it out to the mailing list.
>
>The original msg was a request (from someone else) asking about audio
>software for children - the thread also included general software for
>children.
>
>Here's his short msg:
>
>===
>Just installed it. A very creative but frustrating package. As with too
>many of these things, one must be able to read and that in English (or a
>few European languages?). Fine print abounds in what at first looks like
>a very sparse UI.
>
>The program abounds with objects and widgets. Some very creative and
>versatile, others frustratingly crude. Graphic objects like squares
>cannot be resized (nothing stops one from reprogramming them and then
>dutifully uploading the scalable versions for others to enjoy--smalltalk
>was once the rage.)
>
>Smalltalk 80 is, well, 26 years old. Before Unicode so is incompatable
>with mutlingual keyboard choices. No Hebrew for my daughter, not in UI
>and cannot type it in to text objects either. Truetype fonts (newer than
>smalltalk80) are beatutiful but they are also Unicode based nowadays.
>
>I think most kids would enjoy trying various widgets but run out of
>patience doing anything more with them. Most adults would as well.
>
>--
>
>_______________________________________________
>Squeakland mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland


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Re: [Squeakland] Help needed on reply about squeak

Bert Freudenberg
Re "squares aren't resizable" I guess he hasn't even discovered  
halos, yet. Without them, etoys indeed is pretty hard to use ;)


- Bert -


On Dec 11, 2006, at 8:52 , Alan Kay wrote:

> Hi --
>
> We could use lots more documentation in lots more languages most  
> certainly. It would be nice to have all the writing systems of the  
> world available and usable (the OLPC machine will probably force us  
> to do that).
>
> I think he missed the book "Powerful Ideas in the Classroom" which  
> would give him a start with his daughter (and for himself). Etoys  
> is not at all about widgets, just the opposite. He also seems to  
> have missed the tutorials that are on the website.
>
> I don't understand the comment, "squares aren't resizable".
>
> He should be encouraged to try a little harder.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Alan
>
> At 07:39 AM 12/11/2006, Brad Fuller wrote:
>> I received a reply on another mailing list from a person who  
>> appears to
>> have installed and briefly tried squeak, but had some negative  
>> comments.
>> I was wondering if others here could comment on his reply about  
>> squeak
>> and I'll condense a msg to him and send it out to the mailing list.
>>
>> The original msg was a request (from someone else) asking about audio
>> software for children - the thread also included general software for
>> children.
>>
>> Here's his short msg:
>>
>> ===
>> Just installed it. A very creative but frustrating package. As  
>> with too
>> many of these things, one must be able to read and that in English  
>> (or a
>> few European languages?). Fine print abounds in what at first  
>> looks like
>> a very sparse UI.
>>
>> The program abounds with objects and widgets. Some very creative and
>> versatile, others frustratingly crude. Graphic objects like squares
>> cannot be resized (nothing stops one from reprogramming them and then
>> dutifully uploading the scalable versions for others to enjoy--
>> smalltalk
>> was once the rage.)
>>
>> Smalltalk 80 is, well, 26 years old. Before Unicode so is  
>> incompatable
>> with mutlingual keyboard choices. No Hebrew for my daughter, not  
>> in UI
>> and cannot type it in to text objects either. Truetype fonts  
>> (newer than
>> smalltalk80) are beatutiful but they are also Unicode based nowadays.
>>
>> I think most kids would enjoy trying various widgets but run out of
>> patience doing anything more with them. Most adults would as well.
>>
>> --
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Squeakland mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
>
>



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Re: [Squeakland] Help needed on reply about squeak

Brad Fuller
In reply to this post by Alan Kay
Alan Kay wrote:
> Hi --
>
> We could use lots more documentation in lots more languages most
> certainly. It would be nice to have all the writing systems of the world
> available and usable (the OLPC machine will probably force us to do that).

I don't know much about Unicode and the multi-language support in
squeak. I was hoping that someone knowledgeable in this area could give
me a link or clue as to where to look so I could prepare a proper
response to his concerns. Especially if someone has a Hebrew version.

> I think he missed the book "Powerful Ideas in the Classroom" which would
> give him a start with his daughter (and for himself). Etoys is not at
> all about widgets, just the opposite. He also seems to have missed the
> tutorials that are on the website.

I'll point to the tutorials on squeakland and also to the book (which I
think is a great start for teachers.)


>
> I don't understand the comment, "squares aren't resizable".

I assumed he was speaking of a morphic object and I was going to point
him to the use of halos.

Alan has a reply in Nov to Offray Cárdenas, of which excerpts will be
helpful. I'm not an educator so any other assistance would much obliged .

Thanks for your help.

brad


>
> He should be encouraged to try a little harder.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Alan
>
> At 07:39 AM 12/11/2006, Brad Fuller wrote:
>> I received a reply on another mailing list from a person who appears to
>> have installed and briefly tried squeak, but had some negative comments.
>> I was wondering if others here could comment on his reply about squeak
>> and I'll condense a msg to him and send it out to the mailing list.
>>
>> The original msg was a request (from someone else) asking about audio
>> software for children - the thread also included general software for
>> children.
>>
>> Here's his short msg:
>>
>> ===
>> Just installed it. A very creative but frustrating package. As with too
>> many of these things, one must be able to read and that in English (or a
>> few European languages?). Fine print abounds in what at first looks like
>> a very sparse UI.
>>
>> The program abounds with objects and widgets. Some very creative and
>> versatile, others frustratingly crude. Graphic objects like squares
>> cannot be resized (nothing stops one from reprogramming them and then
>> dutifully uploading the scalable versions for others to enjoy--smalltalk
>> was once the rage.)
>>
>> Smalltalk 80 is, well, 26 years old. Before Unicode so is incompatable
>> with mutlingual keyboard choices. No Hebrew for my daughter, not in UI
>> and cannot type it in to text objects either. Truetype fonts (newer than
>> smalltalk80) are beatutiful but they are also Unicode based nowadays.
>>
>> I think most kids would enjoy trying various widgets but run out of
>> patience doing anything more with them. Most adults would as well.
>>

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Re: Help needed on reply about squeak

Brad Fuller
In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg
Bert Freudenberg wrote:

> What would be really helpful is some tutorial projects that are
> downloaded right with the etoys installation. That is what we're doing
> with the OLPC version, for which we also are working on better language
> rendering support.
>
> The OLPC etoys version should run fine on any machine. But making the
> example projects appear in the general projects list requires some work,
> and making the font choices configurable (they are set up for a 200 dpi
> screen now) would also be necessary. A plan of action would be for
> someone to make a nice general etoys package from that version:
>
>     http://etoys.laptop.org/src/etoys-image-and-pr.zip
>
> Or rather from the etoys-dev image which includes source files at
>
>     http://tinlizzie.org/olpc/
>
> We (VPRI hackers) can certainly assist with that, though our main focus
> is the actual kid's machine right now.

I did mention they could easily download OLPC etoys using yum. I will
reiterate this fact. BTW, is there anything specific to FC5? That is,
can other distros dnl from the repo and execute OLPC etoys?

thanks for your help!

brad

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Re: Help needed on reply about squeak

Bert Freudenberg

On Dec 11, 2006, at 9:42 , Brad Fuller wrote:

> Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>> What would be really helpful is some tutorial projects that are  
>> downloaded right with the etoys installation. That is what we're  
>> doing with the OLPC version, for which we also are working on  
>> better language rendering support.
>> The OLPC etoys version should run fine on any machine. But making  
>> the example projects appear in the general projects list requires  
>> some work, and making the font choices configurable (they are set  
>> up for a 200 dpi screen now) would also be necessary. A plan of  
>> action would be for someone to make a nice general etoys package  
>> from that version:
>>     http://etoys.laptop.org/src/etoys-image-and-pr.zip
>> Or rather from the etoys-dev image which includes source files at
>>     http://tinlizzie.org/olpc/
>> We (VPRI hackers) can certainly assist with that, though our main  
>> focus is the actual kid's machine right now.
>
> I did mention they could easily download OLPC etoys using yum. I  
> will reiterate this fact. BTW, is there anything specific to FC5?  
> That is, can other distros dnl from the repo and execute OLPC etoys?

I don't think there is nothing FC5 specific in there. You can run  
Etoys outside of Sugar by typing "etoys" on the command line.

- Bert -




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Re: Help needed on reply about squeak

Bert Freudenberg

On Dec 11, 2006, at 9:50 , Bert Freudenberg wrote:

>
> On Dec 11, 2006, at 9:42 , Brad Fuller wrote:
>
>> Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>>> What would be really helpful is some tutorial projects that are  
>>> downloaded right with the etoys installation. That is what we're  
>>> doing with the OLPC version, for which we also are working on  
>>> better language rendering support.
>>> The OLPC etoys version should run fine on any machine. But making  
>>> the example projects appear in the general projects list requires  
>>> some work, and making the font choices configurable (they are set  
>>> up for a 200 dpi screen now) would also be necessary. A plan of  
>>> action would be for someone to make a nice general etoys package  
>>> from that version:
>>>     http://etoys.laptop.org/src/etoys-image-and-pr.zip
>>> Or rather from the etoys-dev image which includes source files at
>>>     http://tinlizzie.org/olpc/
>>> We (VPRI hackers) can certainly assist with that, though our main  
>>> focus is the actual kid's machine right now.
>>
>> I did mention they could easily download OLPC etoys using yum. I  
>> will reiterate this fact. BTW, is there anything specific to FC5?  
>> That is, can other distros dnl from the repo and execute OLPC etoys?
>
> I don't think there is nothing FC5 specific in there. You can run  
> Etoys outside of Sugar by typing "etoys" on the command line.

That should have been "I don't think there is anything". Or "I think  
there is nothing".

- Bert -



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Re: [Squeakland] Help needed on reply about squeak

timrowledge
In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg
I thought unicode was now supported and I use assorted truetype etc  
fonts all the time. Might this have been a very old image?

Clearly what is needed here is a better startup experience rather  
than any particular systemic changes.

tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
Fractured Idiom:- MERCI RIEN - Thanks for nothin'.



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Re: [Squeakland] Help needed on reply about squeak

Brad Fuller
In reply to this post by Brad Fuller
Brad Fuller wrote:

> Alan Kay wrote:
>> Hi --
>>
>> We could use lots more documentation in lots more languages most
>> certainly. It would be nice to have all the writing systems of the world
>> available and usable (the OLPC machine will probably force us to do that).
>
> I don't know much about Unicode and the multi-language support in
> squeak. I was hoping that someone knowledgeable in this area could give
> me a link or clue as to where to look so I could prepare a proper
> response to his concerns. Especially if someone has a Hebrew version.

I found multilingual info on the swiki, as well has truetype font usage.
And have sent the reply. I didn't find any links about Hebrew, though.
If anyone knows, I'll pass it along.

thanks for your help!
brad

--
brad fuller
  http://www.Sonaural.com/
  +1 (408) 799-6124



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Re: [Squeakland] Help needed on reply about squeak

karl-8
Brad Fuller skrev:

> Brad Fuller wrote:
>> Alan Kay wrote:
>>> Hi --
>>>
>>> We could use lots more documentation in lots more languages most
>>> certainly. It would be nice to have all the writing systems of the
>>> world available and usable (the OLPC machine will probably force us
>>> to do that).
>>
>> I don't know much about Unicode and the multi-language support in
>> squeak. I was hoping that someone knowledgeable in this area could
>> give me a link or clue as to where to look so I could prepare a
>> proper response to his concerns. Especially if someone has a Hebrew
>> version.
>
> I found multilingual info on the swiki, as well has truetype font usage.
> And have sent the reply. I didn't find any links about Hebrew, though.
> If anyone knows, I'll pass it along.
>
> thanks for your help!
> brad
>
Daniel Vainsencher has mentioned something about hebrew on Squeak sometime.
Do I remember right ?
Karl

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Re: [Squeakland] Help needed on reply about squeak

Jon Hylands
On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 21:40:39 +0100, karl <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Daniel Vainsencher has mentioned something about hebrew on Squeak sometime.
> Do I remember right ?

http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2003-October/068401.html

Later,
Jon

--------------------------------------------------------------
   Jon Hylands      [hidden email]      http://www.huv.com/jon

  Project: Micro Seeker (Micro Autonomous Underwater Vehicle)
           http://www.huv.com

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Re: [Squeakland] Help needed on reply about squeak

karl-8
Jon Hylands skrev:

> On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 21:40:39 +0100, karl <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  
>> Daniel Vainsencher has mentioned something about hebrew on Squeak sometime.
>> Do I remember right ?
>>    
>
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2003-October/068401.html
>
> Later,
> Jon
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>    Jon Hylands      [hidden email]      http://www.huv.com/jon
>
>   Project: Micro Seeker (Micro Autonomous Underwater Vehicle)
>            http://www.huv.com
>
>
>  
Can't believe I remembered that... Brains are funny :-)
Karl

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RE : [Squeakland] Help needed on reply about squeak

Dreyfuss Pierre-André (EDUM)
In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg
Hi,


I have developped V-toys a visual programming language built with E-TOYS  and compatible with them.

V-toys is using tiles with icones instead of text.

So it is international and understandable in any language and project can be shared esily.

 
I have translatede the car project which is the v-toys version of the car piloted by the joystick
http://ofset.org:8000/super/213


You'll find more documentation here
http://community.ofset.org/wiki/V-toys

Sorry, the documentation is in french but there are lot of pictures and many projects that you can download and try.Be carefull when you save a project, ever stay down on the publish button to get the menu and choose publish on a different server.


If you just hit Publish, the project will be saved back on the server. In this case, immediately hit atlt/dot or apple/dot to stop the process.

Regards
-------- Message d'origine--------
De: [hidden email] de la part de Bert Freudenberg
Date: lun. 11/12/2006 19:00
À: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
Cc: [hidden email]
Objet : Re: [Squeakland] Help needed on reply about squeak
 

On Dec 11, 2006, at 9:50 , Bert Freudenberg wrote:

>
> On Dec 11, 2006, at 9:42 , Brad Fuller wrote:
>
>> Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>>> What would be really helpful is some tutorial projects that are  
>>> downloaded right with the etoys installation. That is what we're  
>>> doing with the OLPC version, for which we also are working on  
>>> better language rendering support.
>>> The OLPC etoys version should run fine on any machine. But making  
>>> the example projects appear in the general projects list requires  
>>> some work, and making the font choices configurable (they are set  
>>> up for a 200 dpi screen now) would also be necessary. A plan of  
>>> action would be for someone to make a nice general etoys package  
>>> from that version:
>>>     http://etoys.laptop.org/src/etoys-image-and-pr.zip
>>> Or rather from the etoys-dev image which includes source files at
>>>     http://tinlizzie.org/olpc/
>>> We (VPRI hackers) can certainly assist with that, though our main  
>>> focus is the actual kid's machine right now.
>>
>> I did mention they could easily download OLPC etoys using yum. I  
>> will reiterate this fact. BTW, is there anything specific to FC5?  
>> That is, can other distros dnl from the repo and execute OLPC etoys?
>
> I don't think there is nothing FC5 specific in there. You can run  
> Etoys outside of Sugar by typing "etoys" on the command line.

That should have been "I don't think there is anything". Or "I think  
there is nothing".

- Bert -


_______________________________________________
Squeakland mailing list
[hidden email]
http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland


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Re: RE : [Squeakland] Help needed on reply about squeak

Brad Fuller
Thanks, I'll pass your msg along.


Dreyfuss Pierre-André (EDU) wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
> I have developped V-toys a visual programming language built with E-TOYS  and compatible with them.
>
> V-toys is using tiles with icones instead of text.
>
> So it is international and understandable in any language and project can be shared esily.
>
>  
> I have translatede the car project which is the v-toys version of the car piloted by the joystick
> http://ofset.org:8000/super/213
>
>
> You'll find more documentation here
> http://community.ofset.org/wiki/V-toys
>
> Sorry, the documentation is in french but there are lot of pictures and many projects that you can download and try.Be carefull when you save a project, ever stay down on the publish button to get the menu and choose publish on a different server.
>
>
> If you just hit Publish, the project will be saved back on the server. In this case, immediately hit atlt/dot or apple/dot to stop the process.
>
> Regards
> -------- Message d'origine--------
> De: [hidden email] de la part de Bert Freudenberg
> Date: lun. 11/12/2006 19:00
> À: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Objet : Re: [Squeakland] Help needed on reply about squeak
>  
>
> On Dec 11, 2006, at 9:50 , Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>
>  
>> On Dec 11, 2006, at 9:42 , Brad Fuller wrote:
>>
>>    
>>> Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>>>      
>>>> What would be really helpful is some tutorial projects that are  
>>>> downloaded right with the etoys installation. That is what we're  
>>>> doing with the OLPC version, for which we also are working on  
>>>> better language rendering support.
>>>> The OLPC etoys version should run fine on any machine. But making  
>>>> the example projects appear in the general projects list requires  
>>>> some work, and making the font choices configurable (they are set  
>>>> up for a 200 dpi screen now) would also be necessary. A plan of  
>>>> action would be for someone to make a nice general etoys package  
>>>> from that version:
>>>>     http://etoys.laptop.org/src/etoys-image-and-pr.zip
>>>> Or rather from the etoys-dev image which includes source files at
>>>>     http://tinlizzie.org/olpc/
>>>> We (VPRI hackers) can certainly assist with that, though our main  
>>>> focus is the actual kid's machine right now.
>>>>        
>>> I did mention they could easily download OLPC etoys using yum. I  
>>> will reiterate this fact. BTW, is there anything specific to FC5?  
>>> That is, can other distros dnl from the repo and execute OLPC etoys?
>>>      
>> I don't think there is nothing FC5 specific in there. You can run  
>> Etoys outside of Sugar by typing "etoys" on the command line.
>>    
>
> That should have been "I don't think there is anything". Or "I think  
> there is nothing".
>
> - Bert -
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Squeakland mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
>
>
>
>  


--
brad fuller
 http://www.Sonaural.com/
 +1 (408) 799-6124