I want to introduce squeakland to my Chinese friends

> I am a programmer come from China. From a friend I got to know about squeakland.
> I think it is really a great thing. It can help kids in all ages learn something while playing.
> However, when I search squeakland materials in Chinese by Google, I found that there
> is little Chinese information about it, nor a Chinese community.
>
> So, I decide to translate some basic background of squeakland to Chinese language.
> I just tried a couple of pages in www.squeakland.org. But I used some images, pictures,
> and links from www.squeakland.org. Is it OK? Can you give me a permission that I can
> use them? I just want to continue this work, to try my personnal best to introduce squeak
> to China, to let more and more chinese people know about it.

>>So, I decide to translate some basic background of squeakland to Chinese language.
>>I just tried a couple of pages in www.squeakland.org. But I used some images, pictures,
>>and links from www.squeakland.org. Is it OK? Can you give me a permission that I can
>>use them? I just want to continue this work, to try my personnal best to introduce squeak
>>to China, to let more and more chinese people know about it.
>>    
>>
>
>  That sounds great!
>
>  There is a fairly well translated site in Japanese with original
>content plus Japanese oriented news:
>
>http://www.squeakland.jp/
>
>I'm not at the position of giving the permission, but there is a
>preceding example, so it should be ok.
>
>  Squeak is "multilingualized" and there are successfully deployed
>versions for Japanese and Korean.  (I happen to be the person who did
>it.)  Supporting Chinese is straightforward but I haven't get around
>doing it.  (Even there have been a few requests in the past from
>Chinese speaking people already.  Sorry for my laziness.)
>
>  
>

>Kim Rose wrote:
>
> > The DVD is not sold in stores in any country -- only online.  We would
> > be happy to send you one at no cost if you provide a mailing address,
> > but perhaps it is easier to obtain via Japan for you.
>
>Would it be practical to make the DVD available as a bittorrent? I
>wouldn't mind seeding it indefinately for downloaders.
>
>Whilst I'm very interested in Squeak, the school where I work (as a
>Science Technician)  is basically indifferent to anything not Microsoft.
>I'm particularly excited in the idea of it being introduced to China.
>Now, where are our Indian friends?
>
>Jim Ford
>
>_______________________________________________
>Squeakland mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland

>Alan Kay wrote:
>
>>Hi Jim --
>>
>>Squeak runs exactly the same on more than 25 platforms, including MS.
>
>Hi Alan.
>
>What I actually meant was MS apps. - Word, Excel, Powerpoint and I.E..
>Most members of staff are scarcely aware that anything else exists, and
>have so little understanding of computers that they can't even imagine a
>need for anything else. I don't think this attitude is uncommon in U.K.
>secondary schools and is largely due to schools needing to 'deliver the
>curriculum', and pressure to perform well in published exam 'league
>tables'. It probably also helps explain why the U.K. continues to slide
>into seedy decline! If  Britain wasn't a 'nation of shopkeepers' in
>Napoleon's day, then it certainly is now - factories being pulled down and
>supermarkets being built in their places!
>
>Jim Ford

> Alan Kay wrote:
> > Hi Jim --
> >
> > Squeak runs exactly the same on more than 25 platforms, including MS.
>
> Hi Alan.
>
> What I actually meant was MS apps. - Word, Excel, Powerpoint and I.E..
> Most members of staff are scarcely aware that anything else exists, and
> have so little understanding of computers that they can't even imagine a
> need for anything else. I don't think this attitude is uncommon in U.K.
> secondary schools and is largely due to schools needing to 'deliver the
> curriculum', and pressure to perform well in published exam 'league
> tables'.

> It probably also helps explain why the U.K. continues to slide
> into seedy decline! If  Britain wasn't a 'nation of shopkeepers' in
> Napoleon's day, then it certainly is now - factories being pulled down
> and supermarkets being built in their places!
>
> Jim Ford
> _______________________________________________
> Squeakland mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland

>On 2006 April 9 11:12, Jim Ford wrote:
> > Alan Kay wrote:
> > > Hi Jim --
> > >
> > > Squeak runs exactly the same on more than 25 platforms, including MS.
> >
> > Hi Alan.
> >
> > What I actually meant was MS apps. - Word, Excel, Powerpoint and I.E..
> > Most members of staff are scarcely aware that anything else exists, and
> > have so little understanding of computers that they can't even imagine a
> > need for anything else. I don't think this attitude is uncommon in U.K.
> > secondary schools and is largely due to schools needing to 'deliver the
> > curriculum', and pressure to perform well in published exam 'league
> > tables'.
>
> >From my limited observation, this is similar what we have in Canada,
> Ontario
>as well. My daughters are in grade 9, and while the high school's program is
>quite involved in computer-related classes (there are various forms of
>business classes, accounting, publishing, "computer science", networking and
>probably more), it is all centered around learning MS Office, sort of MS
>Office training for the kid's first job. This is even more ironic due to the
>fact that the Ontario government spent good millions of dollars on buying
>StarOffice, (and of course everyone can install OO), the school system simply
>does not seem to use it at all in the courses. Not that OO would be a big
>step up from MS Office, but the rest of the world can eventually save in that
>format (notion of which escapes many of our professional developer
>colleagues, so why should school teachers be asked to be aware).
>
>It is as if high school education would be a caterer to business. I do not
>think it is the teachers' fault, I am imagining a reaction of a parent who's
>child is being taught something like OO instead: "Why don't you teach them MS
>Office, .net or Java, they will not use this stuff in their job, and they wil
>be able to get $XYZ an hour doing Java .. or happily create an Access
>database for the boss ... or something like that :(".
>
>BTW, for computer science class in the high school, it is Java and VB. A
>friend of ours kids go to school in Vienna and they teach them Java as well,
>so I suppose the ordeal is world - wide. Last year I wrote to one of the
>teachers suggesting to volunteer a extra-curriculum class using Squeak but
>did not get an answer, I suppose they did not know what it was (altough I
>tried to explain).
>
>Also, on your note about 'delivering a curriculum', it seems that with more
>pressure to "standardize" and "measure", any interest to focus on creativity
>is disappearing, what is interesting is that it math and science classes seem
>to be suffering the most.
>
>Milan
>
> > It probably also helps explain why the U.K. continues to slide
> > into seedy decline! If  Britain wasn't a 'nation of shopkeepers' in
> > Napoleon's day, then it certainly is now - factories being pulled down
> > and supermarkets being built in their places!
> >
> > Jim Ford
> > _______________________________________________
> > Squeakland mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
>
>_______________________________________________
>Squeakland mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland

>Hi Milan --
>
>Yes, what you describe is what I've called the "driver's ed" (DE) view of
>computing -- and this goes back at least as far as the "Nation At Risk"
>manifesto in (I think) 1983. It's the simplest way for school people and
>parents to feel they are doing something modern and relevant with computing.
>
>The kind of computing that Seymour and (a few years later) I have been
>espousing since the 60s is in the same epistemological camp as real math
>and real science -- and most school people and parents don't understand
>what these are and why they are important.
>
>I think people who are interested in Seymour's insights will have a simpler
>time if they just lump real math, real science and "Seymour Computing"
>(I'll call this s-comp) into one composite subject that is not associated
>with DE-computing. My generic term for this would be "real science" -- the
>reason for this is that "school math" has been aimed at simple arithmetic
>(the "driver's ed" of math) and there are now huge schooling standards and
>testing for this, just as with DE-computing.
>
>Science is a little more vague for most people (and a little scary for
>others) so there is much less force behind standards and testing right now.
>This allows much more of the real stuff to be done (and combined with
>r-math and s-comp) if we could get parents and teachers to understand it
>better.
>
>So I would advise focusing on r-science as a way to help teach children
>thinking (and debugging of thinking) and powerful ideas and ways to
>represent them (including r-math and its sibling s-comp).
>
>Cheers
>
>Alan
>
>---------------
>
>At 06:29 PM 4/22/2006, Milan Zimmermann wrote:
>>On 2006 April 9 11:12, Jim Ford wrote:
>>  > Alan Kay wrote:
>>  > > Hi Jim --
>>  > >
>>  > > Squeak runs exactly the same on more than 25 platforms, including MS.
>>  >
>>  > Hi Alan.
>>  >
>>  > What I actually meant was MS apps. - Word, Excel, Powerpoint and I.E..
>>  > Most members of staff are scarcely aware that anything else exists, and
>>  > have so little understanding of computers that they can't even imagine a
>>  > need for anything else. I don't think this attitude is uncommon in U.K.
>>  > secondary schools and is largely due to schools needing to 'deliver the
>>  > curriculum', and pressure to perform well in published exam 'league
>>  > tables'.
>>
>>  >From my limited observation, this is similar what we have in Canada,
>>  Ontario
>>as well. My daughters are in grade 9, and while the high school's program is
>>quite involved in computer-related classes (there are various forms of
>>business classes, accounting, publishing, "computer science", networking and
>>probably more), it is all centered around learning MS Office, sort of MS
>>Office training for the kid's first job. This is even more ironic due to the
>>fact that the Ontario government spent good millions of dollars on buying
>>StarOffice, (and of course everyone can install OO), the school system simply
>>does not seem to use it at all in the courses. Not that OO would be a big
>>step up from MS Office, but the rest of the world can eventually save in that
>>format (notion of which escapes many of our professional developer
>>colleagues, so why should school teachers be asked to be aware).
>  >
>>It is as if high school education would be a caterer to business. I do not
>>think it is the teachers' fault, I am imagining a reaction of a parent who's
>>child is being taught something like OO instead: "Why don't you teach them MS
>>Office, .net or Java, they will not use this stuff in their job, and they wil
>>be able to get $XYZ an hour doing Java .. or happily create an Access
>>database for the boss ... or something like that :(".
>>
>>BTW, for computer science class in the high school, it is Java and VB. A
>>friend of ours kids go to school in Vienna and they teach them Java as well,
>>so I suppose the ordeal is world - wide. Last year I wrote to one of the
>>teachers suggesting to volunteer a extra-curriculum class using Squeak but
>>did not get an answer, I suppose they did not know what it was (altough I
>>tried to explain).
>>
>>Also, on your note about 'delivering a curriculum', it seems that with more
>>pressure to "standardize" and "measure", any interest to focus on creativity
>>is disappearing, what is interesting is that it math and science classes seem
>>to be suffering the most.
>>
>>Milan
>>
>>  > It probably also helps explain why the U.K. continues to slide
>>  > into seedy decline! If  Britain wasn't a 'nation of shopkeepers' in
>>  > Napoleon's day, then it certainly is now - factories being pulled down
>>  > and supermarkets being built in their places!
>>  >
>>  > Jim Ford
>>  > _______________________________________________
>>  > Squeakland mailing list
>>  > [hidden email]
>>  > http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Squeakland mailing list
>>[hidden email]
>>http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Squeakland mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland

>Bob
>
>>Hi Milan --
>>
>>Yes, what you describe is what I've called the "driver's ed" (DE) view of
>>computing -- and this goes back at least as far as the "Nation At Risk"
>>manifesto in (I think) 1983. It's the simplest way for school people and
>>parents to feel they are doing something modern and relevant with computing.
>>
>>The kind of computing that Seymour and (a few years later) I have been
>>espousing since the 60s is in the same epistemological camp as real math
>>and real science -- and most school people and parents don't understand
>>what these are and why they are important.
>>
>>I think people who are interested in Seymour's insights will have a simpler
>>time if they just lump real math, real science and "Seymour Computing"
>>(I'll call this s-comp) into one composite subject that is not associated
>>with DE-computing. My generic term for this would be "real science" -- the
>>reason for this is that "school math" has been aimed at simple arithmetic
>>(the "driver's ed" of math) and there are now huge schooling standards and
>>testing for this, just as with DE-computing.
>>
>>Science is a little more vague for most people (and a little scary for
>>others) so there is much less force behind standards and testing right now.
>>This allows much more of the real stuff to be done (and combined with
>>r-math and s-comp) if we could get parents and teachers to understand it
>>better.
>>
>>So I would advise focusing on r-science as a way to help teach children
>>thinking (and debugging of thinking) and powerful ideas and ways to
>>represent them (including r-math and its sibling s-comp).
>>
>>Cheers
>>
>>Alan
>>
>>---------------
>>
>>At 06:29 PM 4/22/2006, Milan Zimmermann wrote:
>>>On 2006 April 9 11:12, Jim Ford wrote:
>>>  > Alan Kay wrote:
>>>  > > Hi Jim --
>>>  > >
>>>  > > Squeak runs exactly the same on more than 25 platforms, including MS.
>>>  >
>>>  > Hi Alan.
>>>  >
>>>  > What I actually meant was MS apps. - Word, Excel, Powerpoint and I.E..
>>>  > Most members of staff are scarcely aware that anything else exists, and
>>>  > have so little understanding of computers that they can't even imagine a
>>>  > need for anything else. I don't think this attitude is uncommon in U.K.
>>>  > secondary schools and is largely due to schools needing to 'deliver the
>>>  > curriculum', and pressure to perform well in published exam 'league
>>>  > tables'.
>>>
>>>  >From my limited observation, this is similar what we have in Canada,
>>>  Ontario
>>>as well. My daughters are in grade 9, and while the high school's program is
>>>quite involved in computer-related classes (there are various forms of
>>>business classes, accounting, publishing, "computer science", networking and
>>>probably more), it is all centered around learning MS Office, sort of MS
>>>Office training for the kid's first job. This is even more ironic due to the
>>>fact that the Ontario government spent good millions of dollars on buying
>>>StarOffice, (and of course everyone can install OO), the school system
>>>simply
>>>does not seem to use it at all in the courses. Not that OO would be a big
>>>step up from MS Office, but the rest of the world can eventually save in
>>>that
>>>format (notion of which escapes many of our professional developer
>>>colleagues, so why should school teachers be asked to be aware).
>>  >
>>>It is as if high school education would be a caterer to business. I do not
>>>think it is the teachers' fault, I am imagining a reaction of a parent who's
>>>child is being taught something like OO instead: "Why don't you teach
>>>them MS
>>>Office, .net or Java, they will not use this stuff in their job, and
>>>they wil
>>>be able to get $XYZ an hour doing Java .. or happily create an Access
>>>database for the boss ... or something like that :(".
>>>
>>>BTW, for computer science class in the high school, it is Java and VB. A
>>>friend of ours kids go to school in Vienna and they teach them Java as well,
>>>so I suppose the ordeal is world - wide. Last year I wrote to one of the
>>>teachers suggesting to volunteer a extra-curriculum class using Squeak but
>>>did not get an answer, I suppose they did not know what it was (altough I
>>>tried to explain).
>>>
>>>Also, on your note about 'delivering a curriculum', it seems that with more
>>>pressure to "standardize" and "measure", any interest to focus on creativity
>>>is disappearing, what is interesting is that it math and science classes
>>>seem
>>>to be suffering the most.
>>>
>>>Milan
>>>
>>>  > It probably also helps explain why the U.K. continues to slide
>>>  > into seedy decline! If  Britain wasn't a 'nation of shopkeepers' in
>>>  > Napoleon's day, then it certainly is now - factories being pulled down
>>>  > and supermarkets being built in their places!
>>>  >
>>>  > Jim Ford
>>>  > _______________________________________________
>>>  > Squeakland mailing list
>>>  > [hidden email]
>>>  > http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Squeakland mailing list
>>>[hidden email]
>>>http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Squeakland mailing list
>>[hidden email]
>>http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland

> Hi Milan --
>
> Yes, what you describe is what I've called the "driver's ed" (DE) view of
> computing -- and this goes back at least as far as the "Nation At Risk"
> manifesto in (I think) 1983. It's the simplest way for school people and
> parents to feel they are doing something modern and relevant with
> computing.
>
> The kind of computing that Seymour and (a few years later) I have been
> espousing since the 60s is in the same epistemological camp as real math
> and real science -- and most school people and parents don't understand
> what these are and why they are important.
>
> I think people who are interested in Seymour's insights will have a simpler
> time if they just lump real math, real science and "Seymour Computing"
> (I'll call this s-comp) into one composite subject that is not associated
> with DE-computing. My generic term for this would be "real science" -- the
> reason for this is that "school math" has been aimed at simple arithmetic
> (the "driver's ed" of math) and there are now huge schooling standards and
> testing for this, just as with DE-computing.
>
> Science is a little more vague for most people (and a little scary for
> others) so there is much less force behind standards and testing right now.
> This allows much more of the real stuff to be done (and combined with
> r-math and s-comp) if we could get parents and teachers to understand it
> better.
>
> So I would advise focusing on r-science as a way to help teach children
> thinking (and debugging of thinking) and powerful ideas and ways to
> represent them (including r-math and its sibling s-comp).
>
> Cheers
>
> Alan
>
> ---------------
>
> At 06:29 PM 4/22/2006, Milan Zimmermann wrote:
> >On 2006 April 9 11:12, Jim Ford wrote:
> > > Alan Kay wrote:
> > > > Hi Jim --
> > > >
> > > > Squeak runs exactly the same on more than 25 platforms, including MS.
> > >
> > > Hi Alan.
> > >
> > > What I actually meant was MS apps. - Word, Excel, Powerpoint and I.E..
> > > Most members of staff are scarcely aware that anything else exists, and
> > > have so little understanding of computers that they can't even imagine
> > > a need for anything else. I don't think this attitude is uncommon in
> > > U.K. secondary schools and is largely due to schools needing to
> > > 'deliver the curriculum', and pressure to perform well in published
> > > exam 'league tables'.
> > >
> > >From my limited observation, this is similar what we have in Canada,
> >
> > Ontario
> >as well. My daughters are in grade 9, and while the high school's program
> > is quite involved in computer-related classes (there are various forms of
> > business classes, accounting, publishing, "computer science", networking
> > and probably more), it is all centered around learning MS Office, sort of
> > MS Office training for the kid's first job. This is even more ironic due
> > to the fact that the Ontario government spent good millions of dollars on
> > buying StarOffice, (and of course everyone can install OO), the school
> > system simply does not seem to use it at all in the courses. Not that OO
> > would be a big step up from MS Office, but the rest of the world can
> > eventually save in that format (notion of which escapes many of our
> > professional developer colleagues, so why should school teachers be asked
> > to be aware).
> >
> >It is as if high school education would be a caterer to business. I do not
> >think it is the teachers' fault, I am imagining a reaction of a parent
> > who's child is being taught something like OO instead: "Why don't you
> > teach them MS Office, .net or Java, they will not use this stuff in their
> > job, and they wil be able to get $XYZ an hour doing Java .. or happily
> > create an Access database for the boss ... or something like that :(".
> >
> >BTW, for computer science class in the high school, it is Java and VB. A
> >friend of ours kids go to school in Vienna and they teach them Java as
> > well, so I suppose the ordeal is world - wide. Last year I wrote to one
> > of the teachers suggesting to volunteer a extra-curriculum class using
> > Squeak but did not get an answer, I suppose they did not know what it was
> > (altough I tried to explain).
> >
> >Also, on your note about 'delivering a curriculum', it seems that with
> > more pressure to "standardize" and "measure", any interest to focus on
> > creativity is disappearing, what is interesting is that it math and
> > science classes seem to be suffering the most.
> >
> >Milan
> >
> > > It probably also helps explain why the U.K. continues to slide
> > > into seedy decline! If  Britain wasn't a 'nation of shopkeepers' in
> > > Napoleon's day, then it certainly is now - factories being pulled down
> > > and supermarkets being built in their places!
> > >
> > > Jim Ford
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Squeakland mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Squeakland mailing list
> >[hidden email]
> >http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland