Improvements to wiki.squeak.org

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Improvements to wiki.squeak.org

K K Subbu
Hi,

wiki.squeak.org/squeak is an excellent resource for Squeakers. However,
it's interface is a bit dated and could do with some improvements. I
hope I am not burdening maintainers with my site suggestions.

* search could be a text field instead of a button. This will ease the
interface for beginners
* The search results prints lots of text (including the IP address of
the machine from which the author last edited the text!). Printing the
page title and modification timestamp (ISO) should be sufficient.

  VM Command Line Options, 2006-11-12 9:12 pm

* Is it possible to tag pages (say with #obsolete or #beginner
#developer). Pages with #obsolete tags could be listed at end of the
search results making them more relevant.

A ton of thanks to the team that keeps the wiki running.

Regards .. Subbu

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Re: Improvements to wiki.squeak.org

timrowledge


> On 05-04-2018, at 10:13 AM, K K Subbu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> wiki.squeak.org/squeak is an excellent resource for Squeakers. However, it's interface is a bit dated and could do with some improvements.

I agree that the UI is a bit blah (and your suggestions are interesting) but far more worrying is the out of date state of so many pages.  Every now and then I go on a minor rampage to mark obviously obsolete pages, delete clearly ridiculous one, recycle those pages, update stuff where I know what can be improved and so on. We suffer from a colossal swathe of effectively empty pages generated by some long-gone process/project that appeared to consider that dumping class name as page and (maybe) sticking class comments in was a good idea. There are strings of pages forming the promising beginnings of tutorials that simply fade out to.........{crickets}

Almost anyone can help to clean up the swiki. Pick some page from the front page, follow it down the rabbit-hole a bit, look at the pages that link to a duff page, clean them up a bit, recycle bad pages, rewrite poorly thought out explanations, maybe replace ancient screenshots with ones taken from a current Squeak.  (as an example, take a look at http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3480 - lots of very out of date examples there). Even simple things like organising into proper lists and editing text into proper paragraphs can help a lot in readability. You don't need to be a great expert to provide a valuable service here - but I bet that spending some time in the swiki will start to make you an expert, even if it's only by making you look up the real state of something!

If everyone on the squeak-dev list edited a swiki page once a week we'd very quickly see big improvements.

tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
I'm so skeptical that I'm not sure I'm really a skeptic



jrm
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Re: Improvements to wiki.squeak.org

jrm
Tim,

And all Squeakers who take the time to update Wiki pages - Thank You!

When you are investing time in this valuable effort, please keep in mind the audience of beginners and (#('CS' 'CP' 'CIS' 'MIS' 'EE' 'ETC') includes: myDegree) not when writing things up. Since I have a very small amount of formal education in IT,  I have been updating pages lately and trying to rewrite or add language that makes more sense to me. Using MorphicModel as an example, when i encountered the word "sensitize", I had no idea what it meant, but a bit of web poking surfaced some information that made some sense to me and I added it to the page(sans footnote). Part of what I added included another term, callback, which I don't understand and is not defined in the Swiki. The word "callback" is referenced in 20+ pages, but never defined.

I also have trouble with "used to represent structures with state and behavior as well as graphical structure" and "The tree is constructed concretely by adding its constituent morphs to a world." I think, I may get the meaning of these phrases, but I am not sure:

Is a structure, in the context of a MorphicModel, an instance of the class to which one or more submorphs have been added and (optionally) sensitized? Are constituent morphs added to a world (World?) or and instance of MorphModel or perhaps as an instance of PastUpMorph?

Now back out of this Rabbit Hole and return to the one where I am trying to update my project which has gotten badly out of sync from working on too many OSes and Images :-(

-jrm




On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 10:47 PM, tim Rowledge <[hidden email]> wrote:


> On 05-04-2018, at 10:13 AM, K K Subbu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> wiki.squeak.org/squeak is an excellent resource for Squeakers. However, it's interface is a bit dated and could do with some improvements.

I agree that the UI is a bit blah (and your suggestions are interesting) but far more worrying is the out of date state of so many pages.  Every now and then I go on a minor rampage to mark obviously obsolete pages, delete clearly ridiculous one, recycle those pages, update stuff where I know what can be improved and so on. We suffer from a colossal swathe of effectively empty pages generated by some long-gone process/project that appeared to consider that dumping class name as page and (maybe) sticking class comments in was a good idea. There are strings of pages forming the promising beginnings of tutorials that simply fade out to.........{crickets}

Almost anyone can help to clean up the swiki. Pick some page from the front page, follow it down the rabbit-hole a bit, look at the pages that link to a duff page, clean them up a bit, recycle bad pages, rewrite poorly thought out explanations, maybe replace ancient screenshots with ones taken from a current Squeak.  (as an example, take a look at http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3480 - lots of very out of date examples there). Even simple things like organising into proper lists and editing text into proper paragraphs can help a lot in readability. You don't need to be a great expert to provide a valuable service here - but I bet that spending some time in the swiki will start to make you an expert, even if it's only by making you look up the real state of something!

If everyone on the squeak-dev list edited a swiki page once a week we'd very quickly see big improvements.

tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
I'm so skeptical that I'm not sure I'm really a skeptic






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Re: Improvements to wiki.squeak.org

Jakob Reschke-2
I just read the MorphicModel page after stumbling about the class on some occasions during the past year. I still do not understand when I should, as a developer of some application, consider to use a MorphicModel over "plain" Morphs, for example. All the pluggable stuff made with MorphicToolBuilder are MorphicModels, but I did not grasp the added value MorphicModel supplies here. What I did notice are some menu items revolving around prototypes (something like 'Be the prototype for this model'), which sounded interesting, but got no mentioning on the Swiki page.


John-Reed Maffeo <[hidden email]> schrieb am Fr., 6. Apr. 2018, 01:19:


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Re: Improvements to wiki.squeak.org

Nicolas Cellier
In reply to this post by timrowledge
By re-routing one or two rivers, it sounds effectively possible, but we need may little washing particles
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labours_of_Hercules#Fifth_labour:_Augean_stables

2018-04-05 19:47 GMT+02:00 tim Rowledge <[hidden email]>:


> On 05-04-2018, at 10:13 AM, K K Subbu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> wiki.squeak.org/squeak is an excellent resource for Squeakers. However, it's interface is a bit dated and could do with some improvements.

I agree that the UI is a bit blah (and your suggestions are interesting) but far more worrying is the out of date state of so many pages.  Every now and then I go on a minor rampage to mark obviously obsolete pages, delete clearly ridiculous one, recycle those pages, update stuff where I know what can be improved and so on. We suffer from a colossal swathe of effectively empty pages generated by some long-gone process/project that appeared to consider that dumping class name as page and (maybe) sticking class comments in was a good idea. There are strings of pages forming the promising beginnings of tutorials that simply fade out to.........{crickets}

Almost anyone can help to clean up the swiki. Pick some page from the front page, follow it down the rabbit-hole a bit, look at the pages that link to a duff page, clean them up a bit, recycle bad pages, rewrite poorly thought out explanations, maybe replace ancient screenshots with ones taken from a current Squeak.  (as an example, take a look at http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3480 - lots of very out of date examples there). Even simple things like organising into proper lists and editing text into proper paragraphs can help a lot in readability. You don't need to be a great expert to provide a valuable service here - but I bet that spending some time in the swiki will start to make you an expert, even if it's only by making you look up the real state of something!

If everyone on the squeak-dev list edited a swiki page once a week we'd very quickly see big improvements.

tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
I'm so skeptical that I'm not sure I'm really a skeptic






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Re: Improvements to wiki.squeak.org

Nicolas Cellier


2018-04-06 11:04 GMT+02:00 Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]>:
By re-routing one or two rivers, it sounds effectively possible, but we need may little washing particles

No I don't promise it for May, I meant many
 

2018-04-05 19:47 GMT+02:00 tim Rowledge <[hidden email]>:


> On 05-04-2018, at 10:13 AM, K K Subbu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> wiki.squeak.org/squeak is an excellent resource for Squeakers. However, it's interface is a bit dated and could do with some improvements.

I agree that the UI is a bit blah (and your suggestions are interesting) but far more worrying is the out of date state of so many pages.  Every now and then I go on a minor rampage to mark obviously obsolete pages, delete clearly ridiculous one, recycle those pages, update stuff where I know what can be improved and so on. We suffer from a colossal swathe of effectively empty pages generated by some long-gone process/project that appeared to consider that dumping class name as page and (maybe) sticking class comments in was a good idea. There are strings of pages forming the promising beginnings of tutorials that simply fade out to.........{crickets}

Almost anyone can help to clean up the swiki. Pick some page from the front page, follow it down the rabbit-hole a bit, look at the pages that link to a duff page, clean them up a bit, recycle bad pages, rewrite poorly thought out explanations, maybe replace ancient screenshots with ones taken from a current Squeak.  (as an example, take a look at http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3480 - lots of very out of date examples there). Even simple things like organising into proper lists and editing text into proper paragraphs can help a lot in readability. You don't need to be a great expert to provide a valuable service here - but I bet that spending some time in the swiki will start to make you an expert, even if it's only by making you look up the real state of something!

If everyone on the squeak-dev list edited a swiki page once a week we'd very quickly see big improvements.

tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
I'm so skeptical that I'm not sure I'm really a skeptic







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Re: Improvements to wiki.squeak.org

Hannes Hirzel
On 4/6/18, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 2018-04-06 11:04 GMT+02:00 Nicolas Cellier <
> [hidden email]>:
>
>> By re-routing one or two rivers, it sounds effectively possible, but we
>> need may little washing particles
>>
>
> No I don't promise it for May, I meant many

Nicolas,

Do you have a particular idea how  an implemenation plan/ outline of
tasks to do  for 'rerouting the rivers for the water to be used for
cleaning' would look like?

--Hannes

>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labours_of_Hercules#Fifth_
>> labour:_Augean_stables
>>
>> 2018-04-05 19:47 GMT+02:00 tim Rowledge <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On 05-04-2018, at 10:13 AM, K K Subbu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > wiki.squeak.org/squeak is an excellent resource for Squeakers.
>>> However, it's interface is a bit dated and could do with some
>>> improvements.
>>>
>>> I agree that the UI is a bit blah (and your suggestions are interesting)
>>> but far more worrying is the out of date state of so many pages.  Every
>>> now
>>> and then I go on a minor rampage to mark obviously obsolete pages,
>>> delete
>>> clearly ridiculous one, recycle those pages, update stuff where I know
>>> what
>>> can be improved and so on. We suffer from a colossal swathe of
>>> effectively
>>> empty pages generated by some long-gone process/project that appeared to
>>> consider that dumping class name as page and (maybe) sticking class
>>> comments in was a good idea. There are strings of pages forming the
>>> promising beginnings of tutorials that simply fade out
>>> to.........{crickets}
>>>
>>> Almost anyone can help to clean up the swiki. Pick some page from the
>>> front page, follow it down the rabbit-hole a bit, look at the pages that
>>> link to a duff page, clean them up a bit, recycle bad pages, rewrite
>>> poorly
>>> thought out explanations, maybe replace ancient screenshots with ones
>>> taken
>>> from a current Squeak.  (as an example, take a look at
>>> http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3480 - lots of very out of date examples
>>> there). Even simple things like organising into proper lists and editing
>>> text into proper paragraphs can help a lot in readability. You don't
>>> need
>>> to be a great expert to provide a valuable service here - but I bet that
>>> spending some time in the swiki will start to make you an expert, even
>>> if
>>> it's only by making you look up the real state of something!
>>>
>>> If everyone on the squeak-dev list edited a swiki page once a week we'd
>>> very quickly see big improvements.
>>>
>>> tim
>>> --
>>> tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
>>> I'm so skeptical that I'm not sure I'm really a skeptic
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

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Re: Improvements to wiki.squeak.org

Nicolas Cellier


2018-04-06 11:11 GMT+02:00 H. Hirzel <[hidden email]>:
On 4/6/18, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 2018-04-06 11:04 GMT+02:00 Nicolas Cellier <
> [hidden email]>:
>
>> By re-routing one or two rivers, it sounds effectively possible, but we
>> need may little washing particles
>>
>
> No I don't promise it for May, I meant many

Nicolas,

Do you have a particular idea how  an implemenation plan/ outline of
tasks to do  for 'rerouting the rivers for the water to be used for
cleaning' would look like?

--Hannes

Hi Hannes,
isn't it precisely what Tim (and you) are trying to achieve thru this call to goodwill?

 
>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labours_of_Hercules#Fifth_
>> labour:_Augean_stables
>>
>> 2018-04-05 19:47 GMT+02:00 tim Rowledge <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On 05-04-2018, at 10:13 AM, K K Subbu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > wiki.squeak.org/squeak is an excellent resource for Squeakers.
>>> However, it's interface is a bit dated and could do with some
>>> improvements.
>>>
>>> I agree that the UI is a bit blah (and your suggestions are interesting)
>>> but far more worrying is the out of date state of so many pages.  Every
>>> now
>>> and then I go on a minor rampage to mark obviously obsolete pages,
>>> delete
>>> clearly ridiculous one, recycle those pages, update stuff where I know
>>> what
>>> can be improved and so on. We suffer from a colossal swathe of
>>> effectively
>>> empty pages generated by some long-gone process/project that appeared to
>>> consider that dumping class name as page and (maybe) sticking class
>>> comments in was a good idea. There are strings of pages forming the
>>> promising beginnings of tutorials that simply fade out
>>> to.........{crickets}
>>>
>>> Almost anyone can help to clean up the swiki. Pick some page from the
>>> front page, follow it down the rabbit-hole a bit, look at the pages that
>>> link to a duff page, clean them up a bit, recycle bad pages, rewrite
>>> poorly
>>> thought out explanations, maybe replace ancient screenshots with ones
>>> taken
>>> from a current Squeak.  (as an example, take a look at
>>> http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3480 - lots of very out of date examples
>>> there). Even simple things like organising into proper lists and editing
>>> text into proper paragraphs can help a lot in readability. You don't
>>> need
>>> to be a great expert to provide a valuable service here - but I bet that
>>> spending some time in the swiki will start to make you an expert, even
>>> if
>>> it's only by making you look up the real state of something!
>>>
>>> If everyone on the squeak-dev list edited a swiki page once a week we'd
>>> very quickly see big improvements.
>>>
>>> tim
>>> --
>>> tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
>>> I'm so skeptical that I'm not sure I'm really a skeptic
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>




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Re: Improvements to wiki.squeak.org

Hannes Hirzel
On 4/6/18, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2018-04-06 11:11 GMT+02:00 H. Hirzel <[hidden email]>:
>
>> On 4/6/18, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > 2018-04-06 11:04 GMT+02:00 Nicolas Cellier <
>> > [hidden email]>:
>> >
>> >> By re-routing one or two rivers, it sounds effectively possible, but
>> >> we
>> >> need may little washing particles
>> >>
>> >
>> > No I don't promise it for May, I meant many
>>
>> Nicolas,
>>
>> Do you have a particular idea how  an implemenation plan/ outline of
>> tasks to do  for 'rerouting the rivers for the water to be used for
>> cleaning' would look like?
>>
>> --Hannes
>>
>> Hi Hannes,
> isn't it precisely what Tim (and you) are trying to achieve thru this call
> to goodwill?

Hello Nicolas

Yes. But that is a step-by-step approach, doing small increments over
the months which do not cost much time.

But I thought as you were writing about re-routing rivers (implying
that the water of rivers do the washing)  that you have ideas about a
automatic or semi-automatic procedures to do so....

--Hannes

>
>
>> >
>> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labours_of_Hercules#Fifth_
>> >> labour:_Augean_stables
>> >>
>> >> 2018-04-05 19:47 GMT+02:00 tim Rowledge <[hidden email]>:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> > On 05-04-2018, at 10:13 AM, K K Subbu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> > wiki.squeak.org/squeak is an excellent resource for Squeakers.
>> >>> However, it's interface is a bit dated and could do with some
>> >>> improvements.
>> >>>
>> >>> I agree that the UI is a bit blah (and your suggestions are
>> interesting)
>> >>> but far more worrying is the out of date state of so many pages.
>> >>> Every
>> >>> now
>> >>> and then I go on a minor rampage to mark obviously obsolete pages,
>> >>> delete
>> >>> clearly ridiculous one, recycle those pages, update stuff where I
>> >>> know
>> >>> what
>> >>> can be improved and so on. We suffer from a colossal swathe of
>> >>> effectively
>> >>> empty pages generated by some long-gone process/project that appeared
>> to
>> >>> consider that dumping class name as page and (maybe) sticking class
>> >>> comments in was a good idea. There are strings of pages forming the
>> >>> promising beginnings of tutorials that simply fade out
>> >>> to.........{crickets}
>> >>>
>> >>> Almost anyone can help to clean up the swiki. Pick some page from the
>> >>> front page, follow it down the rabbit-hole a bit, look at the pages
>> that
>> >>> link to a duff page, clean them up a bit, recycle bad pages, rewrite
>> >>> poorly
>> >>> thought out explanations, maybe replace ancient screenshots with ones
>> >>> taken
>> >>> from a current Squeak.  (as an example, take a look at
>> >>> http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3480 - lots of very out of date
>> >>> examples
>> >>> there). Even simple things like organising into proper lists and
>> editing
>> >>> text into proper paragraphs can help a lot in readability. You don't
>> >>> need
>> >>> to be a great expert to provide a valuable service here - but I bet
>> that
>> >>> spending some time in the swiki will start to make you an expert,
>> >>> even
>> >>> if
>> >>> it's only by making you look up the real state of something!
>> >>>
>> >>> If everyone on the squeak-dev list edited a swiki page once a week
>> >>> we'd
>> >>> very quickly see big improvements.
>> >>>
>> >>> tim
>> >>> --
>> >>> tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
>> >>> I'm so skeptical that I'm not sure I'm really a skeptic
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>

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Re: Improvements to wiki.squeak.org

Hannes Hirzel
...

elements of such a script based approach

Download the whole wiki and do (snapshot)

- Analysing all titles with a script,
- getting the last modification date,
- gathering all the headings on each page,
- Finding out about empty pages.
- produce reports on things to do on this
- build a glossary of terms
- build scripts to add tags
- derive a graph of the links of all pages and identify problems in this graph.

i.e. implement in Smalltalk different bots such as the ones at work on
Wikipedia.

On 4/6/18, H. Hirzel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 4/6/18, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> 2018-04-06 11:11 GMT+02:00 H. Hirzel <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> On 4/6/18, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> > 2018-04-06 11:04 GMT+02:00 Nicolas Cellier <
>>> > [hidden email]>:
>>> >
>>> >> By re-routing one or two rivers, it sounds effectively possible, but
>>> >> we
>>> >> need may little washing particles
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > No I don't promise it for May, I meant many
>>>
>>> Nicolas,
>>>
>>> Do you have a particular idea how  an implemenation plan/ outline of
>>> tasks to do  for 'rerouting the rivers for the water to be used for
>>> cleaning' would look like?
>>>
>>> --Hannes
>>>
>>> Hi Hannes,
>> isn't it precisely what Tim (and you) are trying to achieve thru this
>> call
>> to goodwill?
>
> Hello Nicolas
>
> Yes. But that is a step-by-step approach, doing small increments over
> the months which do not cost much time.
>
> But I thought as you were writing about re-routing rivers (implying
> that the water of rivers do the washing)  that you have ideas about a
> automatic or semi-automatic procedures to do so....
>
> --Hannes
>
>>
>>
>>> >
>>> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labours_of_Hercules#Fifth_
>>> >> labour:_Augean_stables
>>> >>
>>> >> 2018-04-05 19:47 GMT+02:00 tim Rowledge <[hidden email]>:
>>> >>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> > On 05-04-2018, at 10:13 AM, K K Subbu <[hidden email]>
>>> >>> > wrote:
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > wiki.squeak.org/squeak is an excellent resource for Squeakers.
>>> >>> However, it's interface is a bit dated and could do with some
>>> >>> improvements.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I agree that the UI is a bit blah (and your suggestions are
>>> interesting)
>>> >>> but far more worrying is the out of date state of so many pages.
>>> >>> Every
>>> >>> now
>>> >>> and then I go on a minor rampage to mark obviously obsolete pages,
>>> >>> delete
>>> >>> clearly ridiculous one, recycle those pages, update stuff where I
>>> >>> know
>>> >>> what
>>> >>> can be improved and so on. We suffer from a colossal swathe of
>>> >>> effectively
>>> >>> empty pages generated by some long-gone process/project that
>>> >>> appeared
>>> to
>>> >>> consider that dumping class name as page and (maybe) sticking class
>>> >>> comments in was a good idea. There are strings of pages forming the
>>> >>> promising beginnings of tutorials that simply fade out
>>> >>> to.........{crickets}
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Almost anyone can help to clean up the swiki. Pick some page from
>>> >>> the
>>> >>> front page, follow it down the rabbit-hole a bit, look at the pages
>>> that
>>> >>> link to a duff page, clean them up a bit, recycle bad pages, rewrite
>>> >>> poorly
>>> >>> thought out explanations, maybe replace ancient screenshots with
>>> >>> ones
>>> >>> taken
>>> >>> from a current Squeak.  (as an example, take a look at
>>> >>> http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3480 - lots of very out of date
>>> >>> examples
>>> >>> there). Even simple things like organising into proper lists and
>>> editing
>>> >>> text into proper paragraphs can help a lot in readability. You don't
>>> >>> need
>>> >>> to be a great expert to provide a valuable service here - but I bet
>>> that
>>> >>> spending some time in the swiki will start to make you an expert,
>>> >>> even
>>> >>> if
>>> >>> it's only by making you look up the real state of something!
>>> >>>
>>> >>> If everyone on the squeak-dev list edited a swiki page once a week
>>> >>> we'd
>>> >>> very quickly see big improvements.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> tim
>>> >>> --
>>> >>> tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
>>> >>> I'm so skeptical that I'm not sure I'm really a skeptic
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>

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Windows, stdin, stdout

Squeak - Dev mailing list
In reply to this post by Nicolas Cellier
Is there any way I can start squeak from a command window, *headless*, and WITHOUT providing a script and have an interactive application^  Say, for instance, my application waits for input and answers back the square of the number I type in?

I've tried a gazillion examples I found and it just doesn't work at all...

I'm on Windows 10 if that helps.

I get all kinds of errors : stdout is not open or "VirtualProtect(x,y,PAGE_EXECUTE_READWRITE): No error" or missing ', or variable out of scope (WHAT?!?!?)...

In other words, I'm fed up trying.

I could do that stuff in 2 minutes in any other language and this makes me sick!

</rant>


-----------------
Benoît St-Jean
Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
Twitter: @BenLeChialeux
Pinterest: benoitstjean
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IRC: lamneth
Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com
"A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".  (A. Einstein)


On Friday, April 6, 2018, 5:28:13 a.m. EDT, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote:




2018-04-06 11:11 GMT+02:00 H. Hirzel <[hidden email]>:
On 4/6/18, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 2018-04-06 11:04 GMT+02:00 Nicolas Cellier <
> [hidden email]>:
>
>> By re-routing one or two rivers, it sounds effectively possible, but we
>> need may little washing particles
>>
>
> No I don't promise it for May, I meant many

Nicolas,

Do you have a particular idea how  an implemenation plan/ outline of
tasks to do  for 'rerouting the rivers for the water to be used for
cleaning' would look like?

--Hannes

Hi Hannes,
isn't it precisely what Tim (and you) are trying to achieve thru this call to goodwill?


 
>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Labours_of_Hercules#Fifth_
>> labour:_Augean_stables
>>
>> 2018-04-05 19:47 GMT+02:00 tim Rowledge <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On 05-04-2018, at 10:13 AM, K K Subbu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > wiki.squeak.org/squeak is an excellent resource for Squeakers.
>>> However, it's interface is a bit dated and could do with some
>>> improvements.
>>>
>>> I agree that the UI is a bit blah (and your suggestions are interesting)
>>> but far more worrying is the out of date state of so many pages.  Every
>>> now
>>> and then I go on a minor rampage to mark obviously obsolete pages,
>>> delete
>>> clearly ridiculous one, recycle those pages, update stuff where I know
>>> what
>>> can be improved and so on. We suffer from a colossal swathe of
>>> effectively
>>> empty pages generated by some long-gone process/project that appeared to
>>> consider that dumping class name as page and (maybe) sticking class
>>> comments in was a good idea. There are strings of pages forming the
>>> promising beginnings of tutorials that simply fade out
>>> to.........{crickets}
>>>
>>> Almost anyone can help to clean up the swiki. Pick some page from the
>>> front page, follow it down the rabbit-hole a bit, look at the pages that
>>> link to a duff page, clean them up a bit, recycle bad pages, rewrite
>>> poorly
>>> thought out explanations, maybe replace ancient screenshots with ones
>>> taken
>>> from a current Squeak.  (as an example, take a look at
>>> http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/ 3480 - lots of very out of date examples
>>> there). Even simple things like organising into proper lists and editing
>>> text into proper paragraphs can help a lot in readability. You don't
>>> need
>>> to be a great expert to provide a valuable service here - but I bet that
>>> spending some time in the swiki will start to make you an expert, even
>>> if
>>> it's only by making you look up the real state of something!
>>>
>>> If everyone on the squeak-dev list edited a swiki page once a week we'd
>>> very quickly see big improvements.
>>>
>>> tim
>>> --
>>> tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
>>> I'm so skeptical that I'm not sure I'm really a skeptic
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>





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Re: Improvements to wiki.squeak.org

timrowledge
In reply to this post by Nicolas Cellier


> On 06-04-2018, at 2:28 AM, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> isn't it precisely what Tim (and you) are trying to achieve thru this call to goodwill?
>

I was thinking more along the lines of sending out my army of wiki-ninja to beat people into compliance with cattle-prods and so forth.

As Marcus said -
https://youtu.be/oUw8VcpBAd4


tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
Death to all fanatics!



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Re: Windows, stdin, stdout

Hannes Hirzel
In reply to this post by Squeak - Dev mailing list
On 4/6/18, Benoit St-Jean via Squeak-dev
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Is there any way I can start squeak from a command window, *headless*, and
> WITHOUT providing a script and have an interactive application^  Say, for
> instance, my application waits for input and answers back the square of the
> number I type in?
> I've tried a gazillion examples I found and it just doesn't work at all...
> I'm on Windows 10 if that helps.
> I get all kinds of errors : stdout is not open or
> "VirtualProtect(x,y,PAGE_EXECUTE_READWRITE): No error" or missing ', or
> variable out of scope (WHAT?!?!?)...
> In other words, I'm fed up trying.

Ideally searching for 'headless' on the wiki should lead to the
answer. It seems that is does not.

Which wiki pages have you tried so far?

http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/search?search=headless&casesensitive=false&and=true

And the same search for the mailing list archive.

On Linux

     man squeak

seems to give a useful answer.


> I could do that stuff in 2 minutes in any other language and this makes me
> sick!

I do not have time to follow up on this at the moment but it is an
important question.
And we can make it work here as well.....


--Hannes


> </rant>
>
>
> -----------------
> Benoît St-Jean
> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
> Twitter: @BenLeChialeux
> Pinterest: benoitstjean
> Instagram: Chef_Benito
> IRC: lamneth
> Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com
> "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".  (A. Einstein)
>
>     On Friday, April 6, 2018, 5:28:13 a.m. EDT, Nicolas Cellier
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> 2018-04-06 11:11 GMT+02:00 H. Hirzel <[hidden email]>:
>
> On 4/6/18, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@ gmail.com> wrote:
>> 2018-04-06 11:04 GMT+02:00 Nicolas Cellier <
>> nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@ gmail.com>:
>>
>>> By re-routing one or two rivers, it sounds effectively possible, but we
>>> need may little washing particles
>>>
>>
>> No I don't promise it for May, I meant many
>
> Nicolas,
>
> Do you have a particular idea how  an implemenation plan/ outline of
> tasks to do  for 'rerouting the rivers for the water to be used for
> cleaning' would look like?
>
> --Hannes
>
>
> Hi Hannes,
> isn't it precisely what Tim (and you) are trying to achieve thru this call
> to goodwill?
>
>
>
>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Labours_of_Hercules#Fifth_
>>> labour:_Augean_stables
>>>
>>> 2018-04-05 19:47 GMT+02:00 tim Rowledge <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > On 05-04-2018, at 10:13 AM, K K Subbu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > wiki.squeak.org/squeak is an excellent resource for Squeakers.
>>>> However, it's interface is a bit dated and could do with some
>>>> improvements.
>>>>
>>>> I agree that the UI is a bit blah (and your suggestions are
>>>> interesting)
>>>> but far more worrying is the out of date state of so many pages.  Every
>>>> now
>>>> and then I go on a minor rampage to mark obviously obsolete pages,
>>>> delete
>>>> clearly ridiculous one, recycle those pages, update stuff where I know
>>>> what
>>>> can be improved and so on. We suffer from a colossal swathe of
>>>> effectively
>>>> empty pages generated by some long-gone process/project that appeared
>>>> to
>>>> consider that dumping class name as page and (maybe) sticking class
>>>> comments in was a good idea. There are strings of pages forming the
>>>> promising beginnings of tutorials that simply fade out
>>>> to.........{crickets}
>>>>
>>>> Almost anyone can help to clean up the swiki. Pick some page from the
>>>> front page, follow it down the rabbit-hole a bit, look at the pages
>>>> that
>>>> link to a duff page, clean them up a bit, recycle bad pages, rewrite
>>>> poorly
>>>> thought out explanations, maybe replace ancient screenshots with ones
>>>> taken
>>>> from a current Squeak.  (as an example, take a look at
>>>> http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/ 3480 - lots of very out of date examples
>>>> there). Even simple things like organising into proper lists and
>>>> editing
>>>> text into proper paragraphs can help a lot in readability. You don't
>>>> need
>>>> to be a great expert to provide a valuable service here - but I bet
>>>> that
>>>> spending some time in the swiki will start to make you an expert, even
>>>> if
>>>> it's only by making you look up the real state of something!
>>>>
>>>> If everyone on the squeak-dev list edited a swiki page once a week we'd
>>>> very quickly see big improvements.
>>>>
>>>> tim
>>>> --
>>>> tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
>>>> I'm so skeptical that I'm not sure I'm really a skeptic
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: Windows, stdin, stdout

Alistair Grant
In reply to this post by Squeak - Dev mailing list
Hi Benoit,

On 6 April 2018 at 12:16, Benoit St-Jean via Squeak-dev
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Is there any way I can start squeak from a command window, *headless*, and
> WITHOUT providing a script and have an interactive application^  Say, for
> instance, my application waits for input and answers back the square of the
> number I type in?
>
> I've tried a gazillion examples I found and it just doesn't work at all...
>
> I'm on Windows 10 if that helps.

https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm/blob/Cog/image/buildspurtrunkreaderimage.sh

builds an image which does basically what you want.  I've only tried
it on Linux.

HTH,
Alistair



> I get all kinds of errors : stdout is not open or
> "VirtualProtect(x,y,PAGE_EXECUTE_READWRITE): No error" or missing ', or
> variable out of scope (WHAT?!?!?)...
>
> In other words, I'm fed up trying.
>
> I could do that stuff in 2 minutes in any other language and this makes me
> sick!
>
> </rant>
>
>
> -----------------
> Benoît St-Jean
> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
> Twitter: @BenLeChialeux
> Pinterest: benoitstjean
> Instagram: Chef_Benito
> IRC: lamneth
> Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com
> "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".  (A. Einstein)
>
>
> On Friday, April 6, 2018, 5:28:13 a.m. EDT, Nicolas Cellier
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> 2018-04-06 11:11 GMT+02:00 H. Hirzel <[hidden email]>:
>
> On 4/6/18, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@ gmail.com> wrote:
>> 2018-04-06 11:04 GMT+02:00 Nicolas Cellier <
>> nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@ gmail.com>:
>>
>>> By re-routing one or two rivers, it sounds effectively possible, but we
>>> need may little washing particles
>>>
>>
>> No I don't promise it for May, I meant many
>
> Nicolas,
>
> Do you have a particular idea how  an implemenation plan/ outline of
> tasks to do  for 'rerouting the rivers for the water to be used for
> cleaning' would look like?
>
> --Hannes
>
> Hi Hannes,
> isn't it precisely what Tim (and you) are trying to achieve thru this call
> to goodwill?
>
>
>
>
>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Labours_of_Hercules#Fifth_
>>> labour:_Augean_stables
>>>
>>> 2018-04-05 19:47 GMT+02:00 tim Rowledge <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > On 05-04-2018, at 10:13 AM, K K Subbu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > wiki.squeak.org/squeak is an excellent resource for Squeakers.
>>>> However, it's interface is a bit dated and could do with some
>>>> improvements.
>>>>
>>>> I agree that the UI is a bit blah (and your suggestions are interesting)
>>>> but far more worrying is the out of date state of so many pages.  Every
>>>> now
>>>> and then I go on a minor rampage to mark obviously obsolete pages,
>>>> delete
>>>> clearly ridiculous one, recycle those pages, update stuff where I know
>>>> what
>>>> can be improved and so on. We suffer from a colossal swathe of
>>>> effectively
>>>> empty pages generated by some long-gone process/project that appeared to
>>>> consider that dumping class name as page and (maybe) sticking class
>>>> comments in was a good idea. There are strings of pages forming the
>>>> promising beginnings of tutorials that simply fade out
>>>> to.........{crickets}
>>>>
>>>> Almost anyone can help to clean up the swiki. Pick some page from the
>>>> front page, follow it down the rabbit-hole a bit, look at the pages that
>>>> link to a duff page, clean them up a bit, recycle bad pages, rewrite
>>>> poorly
>>>> thought out explanations, maybe replace ancient screenshots with ones
>>>> taken
>>>> from a current Squeak.  (as an example, take a look at
>>>> http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/ 3480 - lots of very out of date examples
>>>> there). Even simple things like organising into proper lists and editing
>>>> text into proper paragraphs can help a lot in readability. You don't
>>>> need
>>>> to be a great expert to provide a valuable service here - but I bet that
>>>> spending some time in the swiki will start to make you an expert, even
>>>> if
>>>> it's only by making you look up the real state of something!
>>>>
>>>> If everyone on the squeak-dev list edited a swiki page once a week we'd
>>>> very quickly see big improvements.
>>>>
>>>> tim
>>>> --
>>>> tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
>>>> I'm so skeptical that I'm not sure I'm really a skeptic
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: Improvements to wiki.squeak.org

Karl Ramberg
In reply to this post by timrowledge
I have not seen this mentioned here.
This doit: HelpBrowser openOn: SWikiHelp.

With a thoughtful structure to the swiki pages we could have nice in image browsing
 And editing added in the future.

Best.
Karl


On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 7:16 PM, tim Rowledge <[hidden email]> wrote:


> On 06-04-2018, at 2:28 AM, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> isn't it precisely what Tim (and you) are trying to achieve thru this call to goodwill?
>

I was thinking more along the lines of sending out my army of wiki-ninja to beat people into compliance with cattle-prods and so forth.

As Marcus said -
https://youtu.be/oUw8VcpBAd4


tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
Death to all fanatics!






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Re: Windows, stdin, stdout

timrowledge
In reply to this post by Alistair Grant


> On 06-04-2018, at 11:10 AM, Alistair Grant <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Benoit,
>
> On 6 April 2018 at 12:16, Benoit St-Jean via Squeak-dev
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Is there any way I can start squeak from a command window, *headless*, and
>> WITHOUT providing a script and have an interactive application^  Say, for
>> instance, my application waits for input and answers back the square of the
>> number I type in?
>>
>> I've tried a gazillion examples I found and it just doesn't work at all...
>>
>> I'm on Windows 10 if that helps.
>
> https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm/blob/Cog/image/buildspurtrunkreaderimage.sh

Just for the record here for the future - this process
a) simply loads the CogTools-Listener (sub)package from the VMMaker repository - which is a very small bit of code we could very sensibly include in the default image
b) uses a simple initial script to create an image that will start up at the beginning of an incantation that loops around the StdioListener. All you do is start up the image saved after loading the Listener tools with the StartReader.st - subsequent runs do not need that.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be working quite right on my Pi at the moment; I get a "squeak>" prompt but it doesn't seem to ever read any input. I know it works in principle because I've used it plenty of times in the past , but clearly I'm forgetting some important detail.

tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
Useful Latin Phrases:- Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure. = I can't hear you. I have a banana in my ear.



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Re: Windows, stdin, stdout

Squeak - Dev mailing list
Thanks for your help.

So far, I've had :

a) lots of "primitive failed", most of the time primitiveFileAtEnd (FilePlugin)
b) An error/warning message in the console, "VirtualProtect(x,y,PAGE_EXECUTE_READWRITE): No error" and then nothing happens, not even a prompt!
c) A "Manufactured file handle detected" error
d) An emergency error handler
e) An error saying "stdout is not open"
f) the VM terminating abruptly
g) The "Squeak Cog Spur Virtual Machine" unresponsive and totally frozen (not even able to interrupt it!)

I tried the original and some refactored (VERY simple snippets) examples I could find on the net using :

a) OSProcess
b) FileStream
c) StdioListener

I have tried all tips & tricks :
a) load the "application code" from a script
b) doIt the code in a workspace and save the image
c) doIt some code with code to save the image first so the rest of the doIt resumes at startup
d) I tried so many things I don't remember it all!!

So far, nothing worked, not even was I once close !  Except for the example with StdioListener : it shows the prompt but does nothing with the input...

I'm using Squeak 5.1 32bit on Windows 10.

My goal is to produce a headless application is a *simple* way.  It can be a script or some code I execute in a workspace.  Then save the image (or whatever step is required). 

When running the application, I don't want to have to specify a script to start it up from the console.  Also, I don't want to open another command window!  I want the app/image to run from the command window without any artifact/trick the same way any other Windows utility/app would work.  I also want the application to be interactive (it waits for input, does something with the input, then shows result and presents me with a prompt again).

Once I get this to work, you can be sure I'll document it in detail !!!!



-----------------
Benoît St-Jean
Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
Twitter: @BenLeChialeux
Pinterest: benoitstjean
Instagram: Chef_Benito
IRC: lamneth
Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com
"A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".  (A. Einstein)


On Friday, April 6, 2018, 5:42:27 p.m. EDT, tim Rowledge <[hidden email]> wrote:




> On 06-04-2018, at 11:10 AM, Alistair Grant <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Benoit,
>
> On 6 April 2018 at 12:16, Benoit St-Jean via Squeak-dev
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Is there any way I can start squeak from a command window, *headless*, and
>> WITHOUT providing a script and have an interactive application^  Say, for
>> instance, my application waits for input and answers back the square of the
>> number I type in?
>>
>> I've tried a gazillion examples I found and it just doesn't work at all...
>>
>> I'm on Windows 10 if that helps.
>
> https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm/blob/Cog/image/buildspurtrunkreaderimage.sh

Just for the record here for the future - this process
a) simply loads the CogTools-Listener (sub)package from the VMMaker repository - which is a very small bit of code we could very sensibly include in the default image
b) uses a simple initial script to create an image that will start up at the beginning of an incantation that loops around the StdioListener. All you do is start up the image saved after loading the Listener tools with the StartReader.st - subsequent runs do not need that.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be working quite right on my Pi at the moment; I get a "squeak>" prompt but it doesn't seem to ever read any input. I know it works in principle because I've used it plenty of times in the past , but clearly I'm forgetting some important detail.
Useful Latin Phrases:- Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure. = I can't hear you. I have a banana in my ear.






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Re: Windows, stdin, stdout

Alistair Grant
Hi Benoit,

On 7 April 2018 at 02:38, Benoit St-Jean via Squeak-dev
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Thanks for your help.
>
> So far, I've had :
>
> a) lots of "primitive failed", most of the time primitiveFileAtEnd
> (FilePlugin)

I've been able to reproduce this one.  I'll take a look and get back to you.

Thanks,
Alistair



> b) An error/warning message in the console,
> "VirtualProtect(x,y,PAGE_EXECUTE_READWRITE): No error" and then nothing
> happens, not even a prompt!
> c) A "Manufactured file handle detected" error
> d) An emergency error handler
> e) An error saying "stdout is not open"
> f) the VM terminating abruptly
> g) The "Squeak Cog Spur Virtual Machine" unresponsive and totally frozen
> (not even able to interrupt it!)
>
> I tried the original and some refactored (VERY simple snippets) examples I
> could find on the net using :
>
> a) OSProcess
> b) FileStream
> c) StdioListener
>
> I have tried all tips & tricks :
> a) load the "application code" from a script
> b) doIt the code in a workspace and save the image
> c) doIt some code with code to save the image first so the rest of the doIt
> resumes at startup
> d) I tried so many things I don't remember it all!!
>
> So far, nothing worked, not even was I once close !  Except for the example
> with StdioListener : it shows the prompt but does nothing with the input...
>
> I'm using Squeak 5.1 32bit on Windows 10.
>
> My goal is to produce a headless application is a *simple* way.  It can be a
> script or some code I execute in a workspace.  Then save the image (or
> whatever step is required).
>
> When running the application, I don't want to have to specify a script to
> start it up from the console.  Also, I don't want to open another command
> window!  I want the app/image to run from the command window without any
> artifact/trick the same way any other Windows utility/app would work.  I
> also want the application to be interactive (it waits for input, does
> something with the input, then shows result and presents me with a prompt
> again).
>
> Once I get this to work, you can be sure I'll document it in detail !!!!
>
>
>
> -----------------
> Benoît St-Jean
> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
> Twitter: @BenLeChialeux
> Pinterest: benoitstjean
> Instagram: Chef_Benito
> IRC: lamneth
> Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com
> "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".  (A. Einstein)
>
>
> On Friday, April 6, 2018, 5:42:27 p.m. EDT, tim Rowledge <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>> On 06-04-2018, at 11:10 AM, Alistair Grant <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Benoit,
>>
>> On 6 April 2018 at 12:16, Benoit St-Jean via Squeak-dev
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Is there any way I can start squeak from a command window, *headless*,
>>> and
>>> WITHOUT providing a script and have an interactive application^  Say, for
>>> instance, my application waits for input and answers back the square of
>>> the
>>> number I type in?
>>>
>>> I've tried a gazillion examples I found and it just doesn't work at
>>> all...
>>>
>>> I'm on Windows 10 if that helps.
>>
>>
>> https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm/blob/Cog/image/buildspurtrunkreaderimage.sh
>
> Just for the record here for the future - this process
> a) simply loads the CogTools-Listener (sub)package from the VMMaker
> repository - which is a very small bit of code we could very sensibly
> include in the default image
> b) uses a simple initial script to create an image that will start up at the
> beginning of an incantation that loops around the StdioListener. All you do
> is start up the image saved after loading the Listener tools with the
> StartReader.st - subsequent runs do not need that.
>
> Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be working quite right on my Pi at the
> moment; I get a "squeak>" prompt but it doesn't seem to ever read any input.
> I know it works in principle because I've used it plenty of times in the
> past , but clearly I'm forgetting some important detail.
>
>
> tim
> --
> tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
>
> Useful Latin Phrases:- Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.
> = I can't hear you. I have a banana in my ear.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: Windows, stdin, stdout

Alistair Grant
Hi Benoit,

On 7 April 2018 at 10:24, Alistair Grant <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Benoit,
>
> On 7 April 2018 at 02:38, Benoit St-Jean via Squeak-dev
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Thanks for your help.
>>
>> So far, I've had :
>>
>> a) lots of "primitive failed", most of the time primitiveFileAtEnd
>> (FilePlugin)
>
> I've been able to reproduce this one.  I'll take a look and get back to you.

Can you send me steps to reproduce the problem?


Thanks,
Alistair




>> b) An error/warning message in the console,
>> "VirtualProtect(x,y,PAGE_EXECUTE_READWRITE): No error" and then nothing
>> happens, not even a prompt!
>> c) A "Manufactured file handle detected" error
>> d) An emergency error handler
>> e) An error saying "stdout is not open"
>> f) the VM terminating abruptly
>> g) The "Squeak Cog Spur Virtual Machine" unresponsive and totally frozen
>> (not even able to interrupt it!)
>>
>> I tried the original and some refactored (VERY simple snippets) examples I
>> could find on the net using :
>>
>> a) OSProcess
>> b) FileStream
>> c) StdioListener
>>
>> I have tried all tips & tricks :
>> a) load the "application code" from a script
>> b) doIt the code in a workspace and save the image
>> c) doIt some code with code to save the image first so the rest of the doIt
>> resumes at startup
>> d) I tried so many things I don't remember it all!!
>>
>> So far, nothing worked, not even was I once close !  Except for the example
>> with StdioListener : it shows the prompt but does nothing with the input...
>>
>> I'm using Squeak 5.1 32bit on Windows 10.
>>
>> My goal is to produce a headless application is a *simple* way.  It can be a
>> script or some code I execute in a workspace.  Then save the image (or
>> whatever step is required).
>>
>> When running the application, I don't want to have to specify a script to
>> start it up from the console.  Also, I don't want to open another command
>> window!  I want the app/image to run from the command window without any
>> artifact/trick the same way any other Windows utility/app would work.  I
>> also want the application to be interactive (it waits for input, does
>> something with the input, then shows result and presents me with a prompt
>> again).
>>
>> Once I get this to work, you can be sure I'll document it in detail !!!!
>>
>>
>>
>> -----------------
>> Benoît St-Jean
>> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
>> Twitter: @BenLeChialeux
>> Pinterest: benoitstjean
>> Instagram: Chef_Benito
>> IRC: lamneth
>> Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com
>> "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".  (A. Einstein)
>>
>>
>> On Friday, April 6, 2018, 5:42:27 p.m. EDT, tim Rowledge <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 06-04-2018, at 11:10 AM, Alistair Grant <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Benoit,
>>>
>>> On 6 April 2018 at 12:16, Benoit St-Jean via Squeak-dev
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Is there any way I can start squeak from a command window, *headless*,
>>>> and
>>>> WITHOUT providing a script and have an interactive application^  Say, for
>>>> instance, my application waits for input and answers back the square of
>>>> the
>>>> number I type in?
>>>>
>>>> I've tried a gazillion examples I found and it just doesn't work at
>>>> all...
>>>>
>>>> I'm on Windows 10 if that helps.
>>>
>>>
>>> https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm/blob/Cog/image/buildspurtrunkreaderimage.sh
>>
>> Just for the record here for the future - this process
>> a) simply loads the CogTools-Listener (sub)package from the VMMaker
>> repository - which is a very small bit of code we could very sensibly
>> include in the default image
>> b) uses a simple initial script to create an image that will start up at the
>> beginning of an incantation that loops around the StdioListener. All you do
>> is start up the image saved after loading the Listener tools with the
>> StartReader.st - subsequent runs do not need that.
>>
>> Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be working quite right on my Pi at the
>> moment; I get a "squeak>" prompt but it doesn't seem to ever read any input.
>> I know it works in principle because I've used it plenty of times in the
>> past , but clearly I'm forgetting some important detail.
>>
>>
>> tim
>> --
>> tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
>>
>> Useful Latin Phrases:- Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.
>> = I can't hear you. I have a banana in my ear.

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Re: Windows, stdin, stdout

Eliot Miranda-2
In reply to this post by Squeak - Dev mailing list
Hi Benoît,

On Apr 6, 2018, at 5:38 PM, Benoit St-Jean via Squeak-dev <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks for your help.

So far, I've had :

a) lots of "primitive failed", most of the time primitiveFileAtEnd (FilePlugin)
b) An error/warning message in the console, "VirtualProtect(x,y,PAGE_EXECUTE_READWRITE): No error" and then nothing happens, not even a prompt!

Bizarre that there's an error message for No error.

c) A "Manufactured file handle detected" error
d) An emergency error handler
e) An error saying "stdout is not open"
f) the VM terminating abruptly
g) The "Squeak Cog Spur Virtual Machine" unresponsive and totally frozen (not even able to interrupt it!)

This is to be expected.  The reader image is blocked in the read in the FilePlugin and so is not running and hence is uninterruptible.

I built the reader to test the thread ffi and to test the simulator.  Once we have a production threaded ffi then only the reader process's thread will be blocked in the read and the image will run and the GUI be responsive while the reader is blocked waiting for input. This worked in 2010 in prototype form.


I tried the original and some refactored (VERY simple snippets) examples I could find on the net using :

a) OSProcess
b) FileStream
c) StdioListener

I have tried all tips & tricks :
a) load the "application code" from a script
b) doIt the code in a workspace and save the image
c) doIt some code with code to save the image first so the rest of the doIt resumes at startup
d) I tried so many things I don't remember it all!!

So far, nothing worked, not even was I once close !  Except for the example with StdioListener : it shows the prompt but does nothing with the input...

I'm using Squeak 5.1 32bit on Windows 10.

Are you using an up-to-date console vm?


My goal is to produce a headless application is a *simple* way.  It can be a script or some code I execute in a workspace.  Then save the image (or whatever step is required). 

When running the application, I don't want to have to specify a script to start it up from the console.  Also, I don't want to open another command window!  I want the app/image to run from the command window without any artifact/trick the same way any other Windows utility/app would work.  I also want the application to be interactive (it waits for input, does something with the input, then shows result and presents me with a prompt again).

Right.  This is definitely possible.  I've just tried 64-bit Mac OS X and things are broken, so it looks like we have a regression somewhere.


Once I get this to work, you can be sure I'll document it in detail !!!!



-----------------
Benoît St-Jean
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"A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".  (A. Einstein)


On Friday, April 6, 2018, 5:42:27 p.m. EDT, tim Rowledge <[hidden email]> wrote:




> On 06-04-2018, at 11:10 AM, Alistair Grant <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Benoit,
>
> On 6 April 2018 at 12:16, Benoit St-Jean via Squeak-dev
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Is there any way I can start squeak from a command window, *headless*, and
>> WITHOUT providing a script and have an interactive application^  Say, for
>> instance, my application waits for input and answers back the square of the
>> number I type in?
>>
>> I've tried a gazillion examples I found and it just doesn't work at all...
>>
>> I'm on Windows 10 if that helps.
>
> https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm/blob/Cog/image/buildspurtrunkreaderimage.sh

Just for the record here for the future - this process
a) simply loads the CogTools-Listener (sub)package from the VMMaker repository - which is a very small bit of code we could very sensibly include in the default image
b) uses a simple initial script to create an image that will start up at the beginning of an incantation that loops around the StdioListener. All you do is start up the image saved after loading the Listener tools with the StartReader.st - subsequent runs do not need that.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be working quite right on my Pi at the moment; I get a "squeak>" prompt but it doesn't seem to ever read any input. I know it works in principle because I've used it plenty of times in the past , but clearly I'm forgetting some important detail.
Useful Latin Phrases:- Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure. = I can't hear you. I have a banana in my ear.







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