InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk
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Re: InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk
 
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I wonder if it would make sense to add a "Smalltalk-talk" mailing list... I am sure ESUG could host that. On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 12:33 PM, Andreas Wacknitz <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk
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On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I wonder if it would make sense to add a "Smalltalk-talk" mailing list... > I am sure ESUG could host that. ;-) There was a comp.smalltalk.advocacy groups in the old days of newsgroups, but nobody seems to use it anymore: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/comp.lang.smalltalk.advocacy Regards, -- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ |
Re: InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk
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In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
Well.. I’ve cared to talk with James before making this kind of assumptions or listening that sarcasm.
Those 20 commits are in the stable repo, not dev so the commit race doesn’t say much. It’s not ready to big time promotion but turns out Redline Smalltalk development is doing fine in moving towards 1.0 and its plans of having one release per year. > On Jan 15, 2015, at 1:06 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Yes, it is very alive: 20 commits in year or so. > > Pharo 4 has about 1700 in about the same time (https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core). And that is just one silly, inaccurate metric. > > My point is, there are a couple of great Smalltalk implementations that contain an incredible number of man-years of effort in their images (the best being Pharo of course, but I am biased ;-), we can only achieve a high quality platform by working together. The number of different competences needed to successfully build a *COMPLETE* software platform can *NEVER* be achieved by 'a couple of guys' let alone one individual. > > Now, it is not that they can not do so, of course they can, we need wild and crazy ideas and research, but it is just wrong to see such experiments as what should be promoted now. > > IMHO, of course. > >> On 15 Jan 2015, at 15:19, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> Actually, Redline is quite alive. There's a brand new repo: >> https://github.com/jamesladd/stc <https://github.com/jamesladd/stc> >> >> James just hasn't gotten around to normalizing all the links at his website. >> >> >> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >>> A blank. >>> >>> Nothing happened to this project in more than a year >>> >>> https://github.com/redline-smalltalk/redline-smalltalk/commits/master >>> >>> It is mostly vapourware and has no users. >>> >>> People following the links on the article will soon find out. >>> >>> Just sad. >>> >>>> On 14 Jan 2015, at 23:40, horrido < >> >>> horrido.hobbies@ >> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html >>>> <http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html> >>>> >>>> Note the last paragraph. Our campaign will be noticed! >>>> >>>> This is exactly what I was after when I started the SRP. Spread the word >>>> about the campaign as far and wide as I could. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> View this message in context: >>>> http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612.html >>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at >>>> Nabble.com. >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4799699.html >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > |
Re: InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk
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It is not sarcasm or a race. I was just pointing out the (obvious) fact that there is a huge difference in scale. (And even then, Pharo, being the most successful Smalltalk, is pretty small).
And I was saying so in the context of the questions 'What should we promote ?' or 'Was it actually good or a success to have that mentioned in InfoWorld ?'. Now I am going back to work on Pharo. > On 15 Jan 2015, at 16:59, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Well.. I’ve cared to talk with James before making this kind of assumptions or listening that sarcasm. > > Those 20 commits are in the stable repo, not dev so the commit race doesn’t say much. > > It’s not ready to big time promotion but turns out Redline Smalltalk development is doing fine in moving towards 1.0 and its plans of having one release per year. > > > >> On Jan 15, 2015, at 1:06 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> Yes, it is very alive: 20 commits in year or so. >> >> Pharo 4 has about 1700 in about the same time (https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core). And that is just one silly, inaccurate metric. >> >> My point is, there are a couple of great Smalltalk implementations that contain an incredible number of man-years of effort in their images (the best being Pharo of course, but I am biased ;-), we can only achieve a high quality platform by working together. The number of different competences needed to successfully build a *COMPLETE* software platform can *NEVER* be achieved by 'a couple of guys' let alone one individual. >> >> Now, it is not that they can not do so, of course they can, we need wild and crazy ideas and research, but it is just wrong to see such experiments as what should be promoted now. >> >> IMHO, of course. >> >>> On 15 Jan 2015, at 15:19, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> Actually, Redline is quite alive. There's a brand new repo: >>> https://github.com/jamesladd/stc <https://github.com/jamesladd/stc> >>> >>> James just hasn't gotten around to normalizing all the links at his website. >>> >>> >>> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >>>> A blank. >>>> >>>> Nothing happened to this project in more than a year >>>> >>>> https://github.com/redline-smalltalk/redline-smalltalk/commits/master >>>> >>>> It is mostly vapourware and has no users. >>>> >>>> People following the links on the article will soon find out. >>>> >>>> Just sad. >>>> >>>>> On 14 Jan 2015, at 23:40, horrido < >>> >>>> horrido.hobbies@ >>> >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html >>>>> <http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html> >>>>> >>>>> Note the last paragraph. Our campaign will be noticed! >>>>> >>>>> This is exactly what I was after when I started the SRP. Spread the word >>>>> about the campaign as far and wide as I could. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> View this message in context: >>>>> http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612.html >>>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at >>>>> Nabble.com. >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4799699.html >>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> >> > > |
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In reply to this post by Andreas Wacknitz
Wesolows' opinion may or may not be valid, I don't know. But more importantly, I don't care. The only thing that matters to me is whether Go compiles quickly, executes quickly, and makes it easy to write my applications. The plumbing is irrelevant to me.
As long as the Go team continues to improve the performance of the language (including the runtime), I shall support Go. As a life-long C programmer, I recognize that Go delivers a far superior experience. It's even better than Python, though admittedly I have much less experience with Python.
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Re: InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk
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Administrator
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In reply to this post by horrido
Maybe better than the garbage TIOBE, but suffers from the same problem - namely, that the greatest environments and communities least often force users to resort to a site like SO (see http://seandenigris.com/blog/?p=911). I get my questions answered by: exploring the image, reading a great free book, or asking on the mailing list (in that order). Of course, we have the additional "handicap" (score-wise) that so much of our code is stored outside of git.
Cheers,
Sean |
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In reply to this post by horrido
Hi Smalltalkers,
Redline Smalltalk is not dead although it looks like it. I recently made the grammar much cleaner and moved to using Antlr4 as well as cleaning up the internals. Yes - what is in the core project in github is dormant and I have spun off 'stc' to contain the the work Im doing until an appropriate time to merge back into that main. I'd love some help but right now you would be limited to copying across the runtime library and writing tests around it as I concentrate on the bytecode generation and underlying code - which is hard to have too many people helping with. I'm *very* busy in my life right now with a startup (http://mywave.me) and personal life but I really am trying to find the time to push this along. I've set myself some fitness, work and Smalltalk goals for this year and all going well Redline will be out in September. BUT - Please don't hate me. This is the Year of Smalltalk and we can change the world - one JVM at a time ;) - James. Redline Smalltalk |
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I believe in Redline. I think it's a very important project, strategically. On Twitter and elsewhere, I am urging contributors to join Redline. It would be something of a tragedy if Redline failed to reach version 1.0. We need Smalltalk on the JVM.
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Re: InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk
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It is always tempting to go where others are. Yet, once we get there you might notice that many other people are there as well, and all of a sudden we are less remarkable and we get less attention than we hoped for. In the meantime, I will continue working with people to make Pharo the thing that others will envy. I do want Pharo to be the odd one out, the Purple Cow. It is exactly by doing something radically different that we have a chance of reinventing software engineering. Some might think that it is not possible. That we are too small. That we have no funding. That ... there are many reasons to be found for giving up and doing what others are doing. But, I think we are closer to reaching the Purple Cow than we think. We are on an ascending trend and the most important features are not yet out. We still have a hard road ahead of us, but I believe we are approaching a very interesting period in the Pharo history. I would like to remind people that the aim of the Pharo project is more ambitious than the Smalltalk one. Please rally and focus on the larger goal. Together, we will get there. Doru On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 5:15 AM, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote: I believe in Redline. I think it's a very important project, strategically. |
Re: InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk
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Le 16/01/2015 07:26, Tudor Girba a écrit :
> It is always tempting to go where others are. Yet, once we get there you > might notice that many other people are there as well, and all of a > sudden we are less remarkable and we get less attention than we hoped for. > > In the meantime, I will continue working with people to make Pharo the > thing that others will envy. I do want Pharo to be the odd one out, the > Purple Cow. It is exactly by doing something radically different that we > have a chance of reinventing software engineering. > > Some might think that it is not possible. That we are too small. That we > have no funding. That ... there are many reasons to be found for giving > up and doing what others are doing. But, I think we are closer to > reaching the Purple Cow than we think. We are on an ascending trend and > the most important features are not yet out. We still have a hard road > ahead of us, but I believe we are approaching a very interesting period > in the Pharo history. > > I would like to remind people that the aim of the Pharo project is more > ambitious than the Smalltalk one. Please rally and focus on the larger > goal. Together, we will get there. > > Doru > I like Purple Cows me too, green and yellow ones with squared wheel are nice too. squared wheels give good vibrations :) Redline smalltalk is more about marketing and surfing on the java/jvm hype than innovation see also http://arstechnica.com/business/2015/01/intel-pledges-300-million-to-improve-diversity-in-tech/ > On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 5:15 AM, horrido > <[hidden email] > <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: > > I believe in Redline. I think it's a very important project, > strategically. > On Twitter and elsewhere, I am urging contributors to join Redline. > It would > be something of a tragedy if Redline failed to reach version 1.0. > *We need > Smalltalk on the JVM.* > > > jamesl wrote > > Hi Smalltalkers, > > > > Redline Smalltalk is not dead although it looks like it. > > I recently made the grammar much cleaner and moved to using > Antlr4 as well > > as cleaning up the > > internals. Yes - what is in the core project in github is dormant > and I > > have spun off 'stc' to contain > > the the work Im doing until an appropriate time to merge back > into that > > main. > > > > I'd love some help but right now you would be limited to copying > across > > the runtime library and writing > > tests around it as I concentrate on the bytecode generation and > underlying > > code - which is hard to have too many people helping with. > > > > I'm *very* busy in my life right now with a startup > (http://mywave.me) and > > personal life but I really > > am trying to find the time to push this along. > > > > I've set myself some fitness, work and Smalltalk goals for this > year and > > all going well Redline will be > > out in September. BUT - Please don't hate me. > > > > This is the Year of Smalltalk and we can change the world - one > JVM at a > > time ;) > > > > - James. > > Redline Smalltalk > > > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4799830.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at > Nabble.com. > > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com <http://www.tudorgirba.com> > > "Every thing has its own flow" -- Regards, Alain |
Re: InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk
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In reply to this post by Tudor Girba-2
"I would like to remind people that the aim of the Pharo project is more ambitious than the Smalltalk one" I would like to hear this grand plan of Pharo, where is it ? Where is the official roadmap ? What are the goals that the core development team agree on ? Why are such a secret and I have never seen them discussed here or anywhere on the internet. I would not call Pharo odd, Pharo is diffirent but not that diffirent. It offers me a way to code that I prefer over python , but I would not call my experience coding with pharo radically different compared to python coding. Smalltalk used to be the Purple Cow no doubt when it first came out , so many new concepts and ideas that were far apart from anything remotely similar. But nowdays the smalltalk paradigm has been embraced in several fronts , languages and IDEs are moving closer and closer. It took python 24 years to get as popular as it is nowdays, the most popular languages have a similar lifespan if not more in some cases. Its a really long process and its full of compromises and ugly truths. I also dont like the fact that Pharo calls itself "Smalltalk inspired" its an insult to people who put an effort into Smalltalk by spending hours making code. You cannot be "Smalltalk inspired" by forking code , your at best "Smalltalk based" and that makes you Smalltalk. Ruby can call itself "Smalltalk inspired" , Pharo cannot. This shows to me a very flawed mentality inside the heads of those Pharoers that believe this, its shows me fear , its shows me embarrassment, it shows me weakness. I would prefer it if Pharo was advertising itself as a modern Smalltalk implementation as a project that lives true to the Smalltalk philosophy and moves forward. Instead here we are calling Smalltalk "less ambitious" , why ? Innovativing more than any other language have done so , is not ambitious enough for you ? I do believe in Pharo If I did not I would not contribute but I would prefer it without all the hype. Innovate all you want , code whatever makes you happy, live your dream but also respect the dreams of others, especially when you base your success on their success. And yes I will dare say it , Smalltalk has been extremely succesful in many fronts , far more than Pharo currently is. PS: Just a clarification because people love to put words on other people mouths, I never said that languages like Clojure and Scheme has been miserable failures generally, but based on the hype of how popular they will become. Both Clojure and Sceme are great language with continuously expanding communities . I was merely wanted to point out how hype does not help and there was tons of hype when Java allowed for the creation of those languages. Jython for example is one of the oldest Java languages (2001), and there was tons of hype when the project started that Jython could become at worst an equal to Cpython on terms of popularity and even more popular than Java at best. Sun even funded the development of Jython back in 2008. I admire what the creator of Redline done as I admire the effort that has been invested on both Pharo and Squeak. Its really hard to make a competitive product in a world so complex and so demanding as the one we live now. I do believe in Pharo and I hope the best for it but even Pharo never makes it to the top 20 most popular languages even in 30 years I wont lose my sleep over it. I love Pharo for what it is, and not what it may become. |
Re: InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk
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Hi, This topic was discussed before and I do not want to elaborate more, but given that you seem to not have been involved in that thread, I will write one single comment. We have no intention to insult anyone. At the same time, we also take the freedom to choose the goals we want. We started from Smalltalk but our goal is not to be a Smalltalk. We might end up being one for a while, but we might as well not. Our goal is to reinvent software engineering. This implies that we want to get to novel things that were not invented yet, hence difficult to plan or predict. For example, we already have indications of novel language models (like the new compiler, slots, new debugger model), novel IDE (GT), novel VM (Spur and the up-and-coming Sista) and more will come. So, when you read "Smalltalk inspired" please interpret it as saying that while we honor the giants on the shoulders of which we build now, we want to invent the future. Cheers, Doru On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 9:44 AM, kilon alios <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk
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In reply to this post by kilon.alios
I think we *really* need a smalltalk-talk mailing list…
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Re: InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk
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> On 16 Jan 2015, at 10:58, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote: > > I think we *really* need a smalltalk-talk mailing list… +1024 These discussions have nothing to do with developing or using Pharo. >> On 16 Jan 2015, at 05:44, kilon alios <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> >> "I would like to remind people that the aim of the Pharo project is more ambitious than the Smalltalk one" >> >> I would like to hear this grand plan of Pharo, where is it ? Where is the official roadmap ? What are the goals that the core development team agree on ? Why are such a secret and I have never seen them discussed here or anywhere on the internet. >> >> I would not call Pharo odd, Pharo is diffirent but not that diffirent. It offers me a way to code that I prefer over python , but I would not call my experience coding with pharo radically different compared to python coding. Smalltalk used to be the Purple Cow no doubt when it first came out , so many new concepts and ideas that were far apart from anything remotely similar. But nowdays the smalltalk paradigm has been embraced in several fronts , languages and IDEs are moving closer and closer. >> >> It took python 24 years to get as popular as it is nowdays, the most popular languages have a similar lifespan if not more in some cases. Its a really long process and its full of compromises and ugly truths. >> >> I also dont like the fact that Pharo calls itself "Smalltalk inspired" its an insult to people who put an effort into Smalltalk by spending hours making code. You cannot be "Smalltalk inspired" by forking code , your at best "Smalltalk based" and that makes you Smalltalk. Ruby can call itself "Smalltalk inspired" , Pharo cannot. This shows to me a very flawed mentality inside the heads of those Pharoers that believe this, its shows me fear , its shows me embarrassment, it shows me weakness. >> >> I would prefer it if Pharo was advertising itself as a modern Smalltalk implementation as a project that lives true to the Smalltalk philosophy and moves forward. Instead here we are calling Smalltalk "less ambitious" , why ? Innovativing more than any other language have done so , is not ambitious enough for you ? >> >> I do believe in Pharo If I did not I would not contribute but I would prefer it without all the hype. Innovate all you want , code whatever makes you happy, live your dream but also respect the dreams of others, especially when you base your success on their success. And yes I will dare say it , Smalltalk has been extremely succesful in many fronts , far more than Pharo currently is. >> >> PS: Just a clarification because people love to put words on other people mouths, I never said that languages like Clojure and Scheme has been miserable failures generally, but based on the hype of how popular they will become. Both Clojure and Sceme are great language with continuously expanding communities . I was merely wanted to point out how hype does not help and there was tons of hype when Java allowed for the creation of those languages. Jython for example is one of the oldest Java languages (2001), and there was tons of hype when the project started that Jython could become at worst an equal to Cpython on terms of popularity and even more popular than Java at best. Sun even funded the development of Jython back in 2008. >> >> I admire what the creator of Redline done as I admire the effort that has been invested on both Pharo and Squeak. Its really hard to make a competitive product in a world so complex and so demanding as the one we live now. I do believe in Pharo and I hope the best for it but even Pharo never makes it to the top 20 most popular languages even in 30 years I wont lose my sleep over it. I love Pharo for what it is, and not what it may become. >> >> > |
Re: InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk
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In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4
"I think we *really* need a smalltalk-talk mailing list…" I definetly not need it, I am far more interested into coding with pharo and understanding pharo libraries and tools than generally debating smalltalk. But if you want such list to discuss smalltalk be my guest. "Hi, This topic was discussed before and I do not want to elaborate more, but given that you seem to not have been involved in that thread, I will write one single comment. We have no intention to insult anyone. At the same time, we also take the freedom to choose the goals we want. We started from Smalltalk but our goal is not to be a Smalltalk. We might end up being one for a while, but we might as well not. Our goal is to reinvent software engineering. This implies that we want to get to novel things that were not invented yet, hence difficult to plan or predict. For example, we already have indications of novel language models (like the new compiler, slots, new debugger model), novel IDE (GT), novel VM (Spur and the up-and-coming Sista) and more will come. So, when you read "Smalltalk inspired" please interpret it as saying that while we honor the giants on the shoulders of which we build now, we want to invent the future. Cheers," I understand your (plural) position on this because I have read that thread , and like you I dont want to elaborate more on this since I don't want to create a very long thread of people agreeing that they disagree which what that thread ended up being. I merely stated my opinion you are more than welcome to disagree. |
Re: InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk
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In reply to this post by Tudor Girba-2
This is probably the best thing I’ve read so far about the Pharo not being Smalltalk subject. I suggest you create a blog post or try to get it published somewhere, potentially as Pharo FAQ answer Success! |
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In reply to this post by kilon.alios
Longevity is not a strategy for success. There are many old languages that have been around forever, and they have never become mainstream. Python, along with a handful of other languages, are exceptions. Smalltalk has had 40 years to get popular. It almost achieved it in the 1990s, but IBM dropped the ball and Sun kicked their ass. The last 20 years have been dismal for Smalltalk; it's all but a forgotten language. (Not so much in the past month. ;-) Hype does not help if all it does is attract public attention. Hype helps a great deal if it's backed up by tangible results; the product you're hyping must deliver! Hype is about growing mindshare from which springs many other benefits, if you play your cards right. |
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In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4
I'm moving all discussions related to the Smalltalk Renaissance Program to the Pharo Smalltalk Users forum where I think it more properly belongs.
My original reasoning for choosing the Pharo Smalltalk Developers forum was because I wanted to reach out to the developer community who are a vital part of the campaign. But I suppose this forum should be reserved strictly for Pharo-specific development issues. The Pharo Smalltalk Users forum sounds more general in nature. That's where we should be talking about Smalltalk and the PR campaign.
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thanks Richard. On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 8:11 AM, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote: I'm moving all discussions related to the Smalltalk Renaissance Program to |
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In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4
+1
Stef > I wonder if it would make sense to add a "Smalltalk-talk" mailing list... > I am sure ESUG could host that. > |
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